950 replies to this topic

[WM Wraith]

Kotev, on 08 August 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

I must say Bravo to PGI. They really try to improve and balance the game. It was right decision to nerf CERLL cos i felt on my own back laser fire from across the map and us IS have nothing to return fire. Keep up the good work.

Clans are supposed to have a range advantage at the cost of locked internals, locked engines, and some other quirks. If you want to walk across Alpine in the open in your Atlas, it is your fault for not using cover and teamwork to move as a group. I could and did do the same long range damage with my 2 ERLL raven to your slow mech in the open all day long prior to the C-ERLL came along.

Sorry for putting elements in the came that actually make you change your tactics, play smart, use cover.

Should PGI remove trees and rocks next? I hate having to aim around those things and they make it so I can't see. Hey you shot me with a medium laser and I am boating ER Smalls....you should not have that range advantage....nerf medium lasers.

Bottom line I saw the IS use crap poor tactics, or not even try. I continue to see this even when matches are mixed. People fail to use common sense tactics and teamwork and wonder why they are dead quickly.

Ever seen an Atlas charge in the open by himself who then blames his crappy team who the entire time tried to stop him via chat? That same pilot then invariably spams the team with "crap team" the rest of the match and rage quits. This is my summation of the clan vs inner sphere testing that got us to these new weapon implementations.

[Tastian]

How about instead of setting ghost heat on CERLL to 2, you bump ghost heat up to 4 on ISERLL (and LL)? (in other words, you can fire 2 clan erlarge without penalty and fire 3 IS erlarge or large without penalty)

[Calamus]

There are three major problems with the CERLL change:

1. Ghost heat on 2 or more. It should be 3 or more. They did not have to change this. Who the hell is going to use only 1 CERLL? Even if you chain fire two of them you now have to hold a target for a total of 4 seconds. That goes beyond requiring more skill to lay the full beam on target. I wouldn't have a problem with it except for the fact that the IS can use two ER-LLs without any ghost heat. So now a Two ER-LL Raven is going to out snipe a Nova with CERLL? Come on.

2. Beam duration up to 2 seconds. What, you couldn't try 1.7 or 1.8 seconds first, if you have to increase the duration at all? At 1.5 the CERLL is already a 50% longer beam duration than the IS ER-LL. Now the beam duration is twice as long as its IS counterpart. Plus, I can only fire one of them without ghost heat, whereas I can fire two IS LLs and only have to hold the target for 1 second.

3. Ghost heat multiplyer from 3x to 12x. Couldn't try out 6x, or even 8x first?

What you've done here is ensure that Clans use either CERML or CERPLL. Clan lights don't buck around with large lasers like the IS lights do anyway, so it will have no effect there. But I'm not about to put these new CERLL on my Dire Wolf, my Nova, Stormcrow, or any other clan mech that I use laser builds on. It just won't be worth it.

This, it seems to me, is just a classic example of PGI's inability to make moderate adjustments. Don't worry, in another month or two PGI will re-adjust the CERLL again, once they realize that no one uses it anymore, and once it dawns on them that they've made the CERLL inferior to its IS counterpart - which is ridiculous.

Queue the dual ERLL Raven's winning all the long distance sniping matches with the changes in PPC, and CERLL.

[Kyrie]

I disagree with the CERLL changes, particularly because it makes the nerf of the C-ER-MEDS inevitable in short order.

To sum up my overall feelings, I present:

[Satan n stuff]

Adiuvo, on 07 August 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Which is exactly why the 'major' heat scale change isn't that big of a deal.

I have builds that fire them three at a time, the heat on that was pretty high before, but now that's not going to work at all, and combined with the C ER large itself being made considerably less effective I may as well stop using them as the nerfs make it just about the worst energy weapon except for the flamer.

[cranect]

Well there goes the 3PPC awesome... Also you do realize that when I the match starts and everyone is sitting and shooting at long range, some of us are playing a version of dodge ball with the PPCs and acs already right. In light mech is was easy, mediums still had it easy, heavies were a little harder, now I can play it in my atlas... Why can my atlas DODGE lightning. It doesn't feel right... Never really used the cerll but really ghost heat for firing a measly 2 of them?

[Mister Blastman]

Valten, on 08 August 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Beem duration makes the CERL useless.

Err, no. Before any changes, CERLL was the go-to once IS PP FLD is nerfed. It is quite happy being king if it can hang out long enough to deliver all its damage at range. CERLL was quite useful. I don't even own any clan 'mechs, but I can see it for what it is in both the numbers and how I used it in years past.

But, as I've said before... PGI is going about everything the wrong way.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 08 August 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Apnu]

Gallowglas, on 08 August 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

The problem is the repeated pattern of doing too many broad adjustments all at once and enacting a massive overnerf as a result.

This has always been PGI's MO. They introduce something, watch it for a bit, over change it, then adjust it smaller, and smaller a few times until it is where PGI wants it to be. Regardless of what players do or say here or on Reddit or anywhere else.

I don't get why people keep complaining about that. This is PGI's way, are very consistent with it, and they clearly have deaf ears about critiques of their tuning process. I've long given up having an opinion of it, and just adapt to what PGI does. Its not a big deal now that I know how it all works.

[Nightmare1]

If all else fails, and PGI insists upon this course of action, then they should at least remove the minimum range on IS PPCs and reduce the heat. Otherwise, there won't be any point to using them with so small an effective range window.

"Oh look! Fast moving Mech running side-to-side! Fire PPCs"

Phshew! Phshew!

...miss...miss...

"Drat, too fast to hit! Oh no! He's charging me at 150 meters! Fire!"

Phshew! Phshew!

Hit...hit...

"Drat, he closed to 90 meters while the PPCs were shambling towards him! The attack had no effect!"

Dun-dun-dunnnn!!!

Seriously though, this RUINS PPCs. I can't count the number of times that I've snapped off PPC shots at Mechs that scored hits ONLY because of the projectile velocity and my marksmanship. I'm talking about quick Mechs flitting in and out of cover as they work their way in towards my position. With this velocity nerf, I won't be able to do that anymore, effectively become a mid range sniper against slow moving Heavies and Assaults only, with the same fragility of an LRM boat since I will be helpless against fast Lights and Mediums.

My BLR-1G is a prime example. Running an Excel 315, three PPCs, two AC/5s, an MPL and an AMS, it proved a venerable Mech, putting up high scores and being a lot of fun to play. Then, ACs got nerfed hard. No matter, the three PPCs still proved powerful enough at range to float the Mech, and the ACs were regulated to close range battles. Then PGI added in that extra slot on Endo-Steel, invalidating the build and forcing me to strip the AMS and its ammo, replacing those with a second MPL. It was still a good Mech if now vulnerable to LRMS.

But now...the PPCs are rendered useless. I have a glass cannon BLR that just had its cannons spiked. Now I have to go tinker with it until I find a useful build. However, with Unit Creation around the corner, and as a Senior Ranking Officer in Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade, I can't really afford to be spending C-bills right now. I need to wait and help kick-start my Unit by contributing to the coffer (I know the Creation itself is now free). So, in short, I'm stuck!

PGI, please come to your senses and retract this crazy notion! Just desync the PPCs and Gauss Rifles like you did for the feared quad-Gauss build. Just make it so that they can't all fire at once, and I think most folks will be happy.

[Yokaiko]

Sandslice, on 08 August 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

(ISER)PPCs are a main light weapon?

The ISERLL isn't touched by this change; Peckravens can keep pecking.

Better read the OP, the IS PPCs and ER-PPCs get the bat as well.

[SpDmnAdam]

Satan n stuff, on 08 August 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

I have builds that fire them three at a time, the heat on that was pretty high before, but now that's not going to work at all, and combined with the C ER large itself being made considerably less effective I may as well stop using them as the nerfs make it just about the worst energy weapon except for the flamer.

Good i look forward to killing you Clan scum

[Sprouticus]

Osis, on 08 August 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Sprout,

Our own channel had a long discussion about how bad the ELO matching was during this test, it was very obvious we played against Trial Mechs.

From a design standpoint, they are so far from where they started and have made so many bad choices that they have created a nightmare.

They just keep making it worse....

Seyla,

Perhaps. And as I stated in another thread, they need to do these tests during high population times to get better numbers.


I wish i could test, but I am having a shitton of work done on my house, have not been able to play for 3 days. Plus it is my sons last week with me for the summer.

Ill try to hit up comms tomorrow, see how this is all playing out.

[Mangonel Jorgensson]

PGI, you just went full ****** with this "Balance" change...everyone knows you never go full ******.

competitive players helped you "tune" this?

so they decided to help you nerf some of the weapons that would help them win harder is what it sounds like.

because if you play the game at all you know they still run Victors/Cata/Shawks but instead of staying a range and popping/dropping with cover and shooting you, now they bound/hop in en masse firing a mix of PPC and medium ACs.

you have effectively given them even more reason to continue to play that way. because now it makes them getting closer faster even more effective and makes trying to keep them at range and deal damage even harder.

GG

[theta123]

Nightmare1, on 08 August 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

My BLR-1G is a prime example. Running an Excel 315, three PPCs, two AC/5s, an MPL and an AMS, it proved a venerable Mech, putting up high scores and being a lot of fun to play. Then, ACs got nerfed hard. No matter, the three PPCs still proved powerful enough at range to float the Mech, and the ACs were regulated to close range battles. Then PGI added in that extra slot on Endo-Steel, invalidating the build and forcing me to strip the AMS and its ammo, replacing those with a second MPL. It was still a good Mech if now vulnerable to LRMS.

Well, the reason why they nerf weapons, is because people like you keep abusing these builds.... Your build forces people to only use...your type of build because thats the only thing thats properly effective then.

Edited by theta123, 08 August 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[PASHA]

So while you can take two Gauss rifles, you cannot take two C-ER LLs without being penalized? Does that even make sense?

[DasaDevil]

SpDmnAdam, on 08 August 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Good i look forward to killing you Clan scum

If you couldn't kill them before, you're still not going to be able to now.

Edited by DasaDevil, 08 August 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

McHarg, on 08 August 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

That is why the comp community should be listened to above the low Elo contingent.

If this would be an E-Sports game I would agree with you.

[Perilthecat]

FupDup, on 07 August 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Oh, and by the way, I know the secret to why the Clan ERLL seems so heat efficient. It's because of the beam duration increase. Lasers don't generate their heat upfront, they generate it over the length of their beam. This means that a longer beam means less upfront heat, meaning that your heatsinks can keep up easier.


The numbers:
CERLL pre-nerf: 8.5 heat / 1.5s = 5.66 heat per second (while firing)

CERLL post-nerf: 9.0 heat / 2.0s = 4.5 heat per second (while firing)


For reference:
ISERLL: 8.5 heat / 1.0s = 8.5 heat per second (while firing)

ISML: 4 heat / 1.0s = 4.0 heat per second (while firing)


You just made it more heat efficient, you %$#@%^# $^.

Which is why they added ghost heat from firing more than 1 cERLL and QUADRUPLED the ghost heat multiplier.

Y'know, I've always been pretty supportive of the nerfs for the greater good of the game, but the bad design happening here is really irking me. What is their goal exactly? Why don't they do any meaningful tests? What is the PTS even for? They consulted with certain high-level players? As if they are representative of the general population? WTF is happening these days?

[Jacon Ceronia]

The poor Summoner took the brunt of this nerf...

The only viable build was either twin ERLs or twin ERPPCs.

Prior to the patch, it was the Thunderbolt of Clan mechs, in that almost no one uses them, compared to other offerings.

Now it will be completely useless to even the few of us that persisted in attempting to master it. Thx.

[SpDmnAdam]

WM Mangonel, on 08 August 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

PGI, you just went full ****** with this "Balance" change...everyone knows you never go full ******.

competitive players helped you "tune" this?

so they decided to help you nerf some of the weapons that would help them win harder is what it sounds like.

because if you play the game at all you know they still run Victors/Cata/Shawks but instead of staying a range and popping/dropping with cover and shooting you, now they bound/hop in en masse firing a mix of PPC and medium ACs.

you have effectively given them even more reason to continue to play that way. because now it makes them getting closer faster even more effective and makes trying to keep them at range and deal damage even harder.

GG

Good closer means more free damage and stops them cowaring and sniping from hills and cover. This was inevitable given the amount of people spamming gauss ppc builds.