950 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Quote

C-ERLL minimum heat penalty (number of weapons fired simultaneously that will trigger Heat Scale) decreased from 3 -> 2. This means you can fire 1 for free, but firing 2 or more will incur the Heat Scale penalty.

I really don't think making Ghost Heat worse is good idea at all (in fact its horrible). Take that part out and just go with the other changes first, you'll probably find it sufficient.



As for the PPC speed decreases, I'll reserve judgment until I get to try it. But it may just end up feeling weird that an energy bolt is so slow, we'll see.

[Osis]

Sprouticus, on 08 August 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Osis, I see what you are saying, but if the clan mechs really are winning 90% of the clan vs IS battles and the Elo was close as Russ pointed out on twitter, changes ARE needed.

On the up side, they are at least considering 12v10, which should make large changes unnecessary.

And the PPC changes are to both sides.

Sprout,

The Clan vs IS matches were mostly against Trial Mechs. The information gathered was useless, you want real information then get proper matches setup. We all know what a great job the matchmaker does, right?

Seyla,

[Apnu]

Mystere, on 08 August 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Well, this is exactly how the nerfs came into being -- people vented highly emotional rage about the Clans. Funny how that works.

I'm a dedicated IS pilot. I've never bought a clan mech, I never will. I'm aware of the challenges facing the clans, and I'm most looking forward to fighting against them with weaker tech. Its like climbing a mountain, its really hard but when you reach the top, the rewards are great.

So I expect, 1-on-1, with even weight, to be shellacked by a clan mech. I'm not bothered by it.

The only true issue I see with Clans and IS is the general queue we have now. 12v12 with a random assortment of clans on each side is greatly imbalanced. Clan and IS tech should not be on the same side. Clan tech, again when comparing apples-to-apples should always be superior to IS tech, and thus be OP.

Balance is brought in with the numbers and tonnage handicaps the IS should have, but doesn't in this game right now. Players with active clan mechs should only be able to group with other players with clan mech and the same for IS. Players grouping, should be limited to 10 vs. 12 when facing Clan vs. IS, 10 vs. 10 when its Clan vs. Clan and 12 vs 12 when its IS vs. IS.

We don't have that right now. So whichever team brings more clan tech they have a higher chance of winning from the start. Teams that more tonnage of clan mechs (say they have 2 assaults, 3 heavies vs. 3 heavies, 2 mediums) have a higher chance of winning. Teams with both more clan mechs and more tonnage of clan tech have the highest chance of winning before the match starts. Regardless of player skill.

The general public queue is a mess, its a broken, crappy mess. That needs to be addressed. And its the only game we have to play right now. People are getting frustrated with it, hence 40+ pages of rage.

Tweaking weapons, though important and necessary, won't fix the problem. More things have to be looked at and balanced. It was a bad mistake for PGI to ever let Clan and IS mechs mix on the same teams. I know it was the easy thing to do. I know they didn't have the pipeline to implement separate queues based off mech tech base. I know they fear dividing the player base more.

But its all wrong. All of it. PGI should have, from the start when they announced the clan sale, divided the player base into IS and Clan factions. Then walled those two groups off. If you play a clan mech, you would only match up against other clan players.

Then introduce CW in these two worlds. Let the clans fight for territory way out in Clan space, and let the IS duke it out over the IS for a while. Then when all the balance passes are done and things are where they should be, PGI should have dropped the curtain and started the clan invasion of the IS.

That way factions have the time to gel together, and the community has time to establish itself and its own pecking order.

But what about players with IS mechs wanting to play with friends who have clan mechs? That's what private matches are for. Beyond that, screw that idea. If pals want to play together on the same team they can work it out amongst themselves what tech base they want to play in. PGI needs to stop babying the player base.

[DONTOR]

THIS IS AWESOME! BRAWLING IS ABOUT TO COMEBACK FOR REALS!

[Reno Blade]

Innocent, on 08 August 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Please stop changing multiple variables at the same time.

Change one thing and look at the results. If the first change did not generate the desired results then change something else, one at a time, until the desired result is reached. Three major changes at once will not allow any kind of analysis of which change is effective and which is not or overboard.

Change firing time 1.5 => 2.0
then
Change heat 8.5 to 9.0
then
Change ghost heat 2 to 1
then
Change ghost heat penalty 3 to 12

At each step look to see if further modifications need to be made. Instead we get overpowered to garbage in one day.

Didn't he stated in his post that he tested it and it was not noticeable?

I think the CERLL nerf was neccesarry, or everyone who used ERPPCs would just use ERLL instead.
With the speed change to CERPPCs, it's worse for sniping at ranges above 800m than the ERLL than it is now.
The CERLL could be used in groups of 3 without much of extra heat (less than 1 ERML) before.
Now imagine a game where every 2ERPPC build is changed to 3ERLL build and they will just stand in 900m range sniping you with 3 ERLL and a Gauss?

Now they just brought the ERLL very close to the ERPPC if you want to shoot 2 or 3 together.
But if you have a more balanced build, you can be more heat efficient (lets say 1ERLL, 1 Gauss, 3 ERML and some missiles for a heavy/assault clan mech).
1cERLL = 9 heat, 1cERPPC = 15 heat
2cERLL = 26.64 heat, 2cERPPC = 30 heat
3cERLL = 55.09 heat, 3cERPPC = 57.15 heat

Don't forget you have 2 more tons to play with compared to PPCs for more DHS.

And another side effect: it's now much better to use 1-2 LPulse if you wan't to use groupfire, or brawl with its 1.3sec beam time, but it will cost you 2 more tons each.

Builds change away from 2-3 ERPPC / 1-2Gauss = good
Builds change away from 2-5 CERLL = good
If people move to more balanced builds, or move to any other "boat", depends on the players.

And you might get more use out of the stock Summoner Builds (one PPC, or one ERLL or one LPulse).
You could call it a Summoner stealth buff.

The balance should give you more reason for other builds using Pulse laser, UACs and other under-used weapons now.

Edited by Reno Blade, 08 August 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Osis, on 08 August 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

Sprout,

The Clan vs IS matches were mostly against Trial Mechs. The information gathered was useless, you want real information then get proper matches setup. We all know what a great job the matchmaker does, right?

Seyla,

If the Elo was as close as indicated by Russ, then I do think the MM was accurate enough. Certainly accurate enough that a 90/10 win ratio is a concern.


the 12v10 idea should be their first change though IMO.

[JohnnyWayne]

DONTOR, on 08 August 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

THIS IS AWESOME! BRAWLING IS ABOUT TO COMEBACK FOR REALS!

LRM spam,
2xPPC/AC20,
CERML boating, multiple CGauss ladouts (everything else is useless now),
no.

[Noth]

DONTOR, on 08 August 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

THIS IS AWESOME! BRAWLING IS ABOUT TO COMEBACK FOR REALS!

You know, nearly all my matches since clan mechs have came in have ended with brawls. I've had more brawls since the clans came in than in a long time, so from what I've seen, brawling has been back.

[vortmax]

I run PPC/2ERML on my Kit Fox. Considering my playstyle is less of a sniper and more of an umbrella/support, the PPC change will not affect my playstyle much, if at all. It will help my (and other light mechs) survivability, though.

While I never did like the CERLL (don't run any in my clan mechs), I dislike the change to it. I would have preferred 1 or 2 of the changes (preferably heat increase and ghost heat change) rather than all three.

[JohnnyWayne]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

You know, nearly all my matches since clan mechs have came in have ended with brawls. I've had more brawls since the clans came in than in a long time, so from what I've seen, brawling has been back.

first this, second above. Actually I have the feeling this has hurt brawling. 1337 Metamechs too, that were aimed at, but clans use PPCs for brawling (as far as they can).

[Sprouticus]

vortmax, on 08 August 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

I run PPC/2ERML on my Kit Fox. Considering my playstyle is less of a sniper and more of an umbrella/support, the PPC change will not affect my playstyle much, if at all. It will help my (and other light mechs) survivability, though.

While I never did like the CERLL (don't run any in my clan mechs), I dislike the change to it. I would have preferred 1 or 2 of the changes (preferably heat increase and ghost heat change) rather than all three.

I ran the same Umbrella 2ERML build but using an ERLL instead since it matched up to the ERML better. I will probably switch to your build instead though. Drop a ton of AMA ammo and a HS.

[Colonel Tequila]

I remember a day when ppc gauss and er ll boats were meet by AC5s/UAC5s and AC2s....... shame about those ballistic falloff nerfs that sure would have helped players combat ER LL - instead nerfing the ER LL to be unplayable was the solution taken.

[WM Wraith]

Sprouticus, on 08 August 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

If the Elo was as close as indicated by Russ, then I do think the MM was accurate enough. Certainly accurate enough that a 90/10 win ratio is a concern.


the 12v10 idea should be their first change though IMO.

Agree with this post more than any other....enact 10v12 and see if the c-ERLL needs to be changed. Are we out of beta yet?

[Desintegrator]

Perfect Patch once again PGI !!

You always hear on your community and your community will love you !!

Thanks for this great patch !!

[Remarius]

Sandslice, on 07 August 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Thanks Niko for this thread; and to Paul for the information.

Just running a few numbers on cERLL first... specifically on Ghost Heat. Based on the formula:

Number of ERLLs - Calculation - Result
1 - 9.00; 2 - 26.64; 3 - 46.44
4 - 68.4; 5 - 93.6; 6 - 118.8

5 cERLL is comparable to 4 ERPPC's 92.4.

The two-second beam will require a strategic shift up close - since all that beam time is non-heat-sinking time on top of the ghost heat.

Question: is the Clan ER Large Laser also being delinked from the other Large Lasers because of this change? No other group (so far) has a linked group with a mismatched number of safe weapons.

------

As for the PPC changes:

-I thought PPC/10 was preferred over PPC/GR for poptarts anyway?

-I'd suggest using a module for knob-turning, rather than core tweaks. Let people buy into PPC Projectile Speed. (Hey, new Weapon Module idea!)

-The nerf will be of some help to Light 'Mechs, slightly reducing the amount of Pinpoint they have to face; and any good news for lights is good news indeed.

I look forward to trying out the changes tomorrow. Maybe my tune will change in tone once it's in my hands.

Bearing in mind they savaged the main light weapon... no it really won't be a help to lights.

[Noth]

Desintegrator, on 08 August 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Perfect Patch once again PGI !!

You always hear on your community and your community will love you !!

Thanks for this great patch !!

Yes they hear the community despite all the cries and suggestion to not make LRMs OP/Worthless depending on your ELO bracket, how to fix high alpha pinpoint damage, how to make ECM less of a must have and more of an option, how to make radar dep less of a must have, how to improve various other module to make them worth something and so many more things that they just flat out ignore.

[M0rpHeu5]

1.the ERppc is a sniper weapon so 950m seems a bit low
2. The cerll nerf regarding the ghost heat is tooooooooooo cruel

As expected from Paul to totaly wreck the broken things

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 08 August 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[Yokaiko]

M0rpHeu5, on 08 August 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

1.the ERppc is a sniper weapon so 950m seems a bit low
2. The cerll nerf regarding the ghost heat is tooooooooooo cruel

Add heat THEN ghost it.

******* dude doesn't have any tool but a sledge hammer.6

[Remarius]

Reno Blade, on 08 August 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Didn't he stated in his post that he tested it and it was not noticeable?

I think the CERLL nerf was neccesarry, or everyone who used ERPPCs would just use ERLL instead.
With the speed change to CERPPCs, it's worse for sniping at ranges above 800m than the ERLL than it is now.
The CERLL could be used in groups of 3 without much of extra heat (less than 1 ERML) before.
Now imagine a game where every 2ERPPC build is changed to 3ERLL build and they will just stand in 900m range sniping you with 3 ERLL and a Gauss?

Now they just brought the ERLL very close to the ERPPC if you want to shoot 2 or 3 together.
But if you have a more balanced build, you can be more heat efficient (lets say 1ERLL, 1 Gauss, 3 ERML and some missiles for a heavy/assault clan mech).
1cERLL = 9 heat, 1cERPPC = 15 heat
2cERLL = 26.64 heat, 2cERPPC = 30 heat
3cERLL = 55.09 heat, 3cERPPC = 57.15 heat

Don't forget you have 2 more tons to play with compared to PPCs for more DHS.

And another side effect: it's now much better to use 1-2 LPulse if you wan't to use groupfire, or brawl with its 1.3sec beam time, but it will cost you 2 more tons each.

Builds change away from 2-3 ERPPC / 1-2Gauss = good
Builds change away from 2-5 CERLL = good
If people move to more balanced builds, or move to any other "boat", depends on the players.

And you might get more use out of the stock Summoner Builds (one PPC, or one ERLL or one LPulse).
You could call it a Summoner stealth buff.

The balance should give you more reason for other builds using Pulse laser, UACs and other under-used weapons now.

Not unless they delinked ER and Pulse lasers....

Coincidentally I assume you're trolling as it is anything but a buff to the Summoner due to its hardpoints and lack of weapon tonnage relative to the Timberwolf.

[Remarius]

Bigbacon, on 08 August 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

sounds like they only listen to the elite players...who either have too much time or spent the most amount on money?? not sure which.

Actually no they're definitely not listening to the big spenders.

I think you'll find that the set of "competitive" players they spoke to all work for NGNG.....

Edited by Remarius, 08 August 2014 - 07:42 AM.