950 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

hybrid black, on 07 August 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

how low is your ELO man because its its boated in a high ELO all the time as much as a PPC with some other gun

my Elo is very good, I play well

[Clownwarlord]

C-ERLL minimum heat penalty (number of weapons fired simultaneously that will trigger Heat Scale) decreased from 3 -> 2. This means you can fire 1 for free, but firing 2 or more will incur the Heat Scale penalty.
C-ERLL heat penalty (Heat Scale multiplier) increased from 3.0 -> 12.0.

WOW Clan ER Large Lasers now are useless ... If they keep it at 3 for minimum heat penalty would be good with everything else because then 2 ER Large laser mechs wouldn't be bothered much except the nerf to make it more in line with IS. BUT the 2 for the heat penalty causes a massive issue because now it is a spanking from hell just shooting anything more then just one er large.

[Hoaggie]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 August 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

The amount of heat being generated by such a powerful and long range weapon is severely out of sync with the rest of the game

That's because all the other weapons in the game are horridly broken.

[Hylius]

BRB, removing every single CERL from my 'Mechs, because firing only one is dumb and two is unusable now.

Seriously, large lasers capped at 2 is already fairly silly. Clan ones, fine, but IS could easily be 3 without being a problem. But capping at 1? There's no reason to have one period now. Everyones going to either upgrade to PPCs/LPLs (oh no incoming LPL nerf guys, wonder why) or downgrade to mediums/MPLs and upgrade something else for their long range poke. If you removed it from the game entirely you'd have the same net effect.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Noth, on 07 August 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

CERLLs are not meta.

point taken. How do you describe the meta anyway?

[Carrioncrows]

The senate votes: NO CONFIDENCE

[Red1769]

BLOOD WOLF, on 07 August 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Whoa, watch the assumptions. Maybe it is because In the higher elo's you do not need damage dealing monsters to win a game. Not everyone uses meta mashers

As Noth said, they weren't meta...not even at my level (I am not a good pilot). From watching a 6 CERLL DW, I always figured it was a joke build. Well, to boat more than three or four a joke. Most people seemed to use only two.

[Haji1096]

Peiper, on 07 August 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

You guys at PGI are ignoring the fix. This was brought to my attention via the latest Ekman interview on NGNG. While they didn't actually talk about convergence, which is at the core of Homeless Bill's plan, it would make the game far more battletech, and take care of your stupid ghost heat mechanics at the same time. Nerfing weapons is not the answer to your problem. Your problem is in the foundation of how weapons work, especially in concert with each other. READ the following article to know what I'm talking about.

http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2780

BALANCE THE GAME WITH A MECHANIC. Use the Homeless Bill solution, who accurately predicated that players would simply migrate from pin-point build to pin point build. Not whack a mole: "This build is too hot. This build is too cold. This build is just right." Do you play the mechs you ask people to pay for ? Do I get a refund based on how you are reducing the my builds efficiency ? Are you going to give the Dire Wolf and Kit Fox Speed increases now ?

People are getting butt hurt because they are getting killed by better players, then they complain about the build. You should give the ghost heat penalty to CEOs of major corporations so they can't fire more than 1 employee at a time.

Edited by Haji1096, 07 August 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[SVK Puskin]

FupDup, on 07 August 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Oh, and by the way, I know the secret to why the Clan ERLL seems so heat efficient. It's because of the beam duration increase. Lasers don't generate their heat upfront, they generate it over the length of their beam. This means that a longer beam means less upfront heat, meaning that your heatsinks can keep up easier.


The numbers:
CERLL pre-nerf: 8.5 heat / 1.5s = 5.66 heat per second (while firing)

CERLL post-nerf: 9.0 heat / 2.0s = 4.5 heat per second (while firing)


For reference:
ISERLL: 8.5 heat / 1.0s = 8.5 heat per second (while firing)

ISML: 4 heat / 1.0s = 4.0 heat per second (while firing)


You just made it more heat efficient, you %$#@%^# $^.

Yeah but now the heat penalty is when firing 2 lasers and the increased duration means more spread damage.

[Ultimax]

Quote

The new values for the PPCs are as follows:
Inner Sphere PPC - Speed = 850 m/s down from 1500 m/s.
Inner Sphere ER-PPC - Speed = 950 m/s down from 1500 m/s.
Clan ER-PPC - Speed = 950 m/s down from 1500 m/s.

We have tested this internally and also have had some of the high competitive players look at it. The overall feeling is that it's about right but as I said, we will keep looking at tuning this if warranted.

[color=orange]What the speed decrease does is the following:[/color]

• Highly desyncs PPC/Gauss projectile impact times when fired simultaneously. The long range target 'Mech will be able to torso twist damage across multiple components or if it's moving fast enough, possibly evade the PPC shot(s).

• Adds much higher skill requirement to using the weapon. Beyond 600-700m, you will have to lead your targets in order to hit. If you want instantaneous hits at longer ranges,then moving to a gauss rifle is what you will want to do.

• Brings the effective range of the PPC into the 600-800m range instead of out at 1000m+.

I want to address this part.


1) Why shouldn't Extended Range PPCs be fully functional inside their optimal range? They pay the heat for this.
2) You have to lead targets now with PPCs, unless they are standing still.


If you want to curb the 1000+m usage, the speed inside optimal range could stay the same, and then once beyond optimal range have severe speed drop off. This would make it exceptionally difficult to make shots, as you'd have to mentally calculate for 2 different speeds.

Alternatively, if that's too hard to program, just have harsher damage drop off beyond optimal range.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 August 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[Noth]

BLOOD WOLF, on 07 August 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

point taken. How do you describe the meta anyway?

The meta is pinpoint front-loaded damage. Basically for the clans it is the ERPPC and guass rifle. CERLLs were used when PPCs were not feasible and you wanted to snipe.

While the PPC nerf effects the meta, it just shifts it slightly, and does nothing to fix why it is the meta.

[DeathlyEyes]

BLOOD WOLF, on 07 August 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

my Elo is very good, I play well

Remember when we dueled and you were surprised by my PPC+AC5 Dragon Slayer. Unless you have improved dramatically since then, I highly doubt you are in high ELO.

[JigSaw73]

I'm looking forward to see how this works. Anything that adds a measure of skill to actually implement in game is a huge plus in my opinion. If I wanted to play an arcade Mech game, I'd go fire up Armored Core or HAWKEN. Those games are the "load-my-ultimate-weapon-pull-the-trigger-I-hit-you-twice-so-I-win" kind of Mech action!

I hope this turns out as good as I'm thinking it will turn out! For sure. Thank you.

[Verkhne]

WOW A single patch that will KILL both the Kit-Fox and Warhawk!! Very Impressive..


The Warhawk as hard point limited needs to run a number of either PPC or LL [built in heatsinks..many}. So what is it meant to do now?? I will be glad to point out Clan mechs NOT to buy..Kitfox, Adder, Nova, Summoner [this nerf will al affect it LOL] and Warhawk. I guess 3 out of 8 may generate some income??

[Macksheen]

Beam duration, more ghost heat and freaking huge heat multiplier is kinda gratuitously mean and unnecessary.

As in all things, you're moving the problem.

If, as you say, the only one really a problem is the beam duration then why, for the love of making useless changes, are you doing the others?

(a) Does the ERLL heat problem affect the C-LPL, as "large lasers" are in the same ghost-heat category? Are LPLs now going to go with uber heat scale?

( Any chance you can unsuck the ghost heat on PPCs? I mean, if you're going to slow them down and all, make them a bit less suck on the other side?

You guys have a very imaginative but very non-system-engineering approach, at least from the outside, to introducing these.
- You don't like a situation, something is performing too well (like a chassis or one specific weapon)
- Make three changes, possibly while admitting one would do the trick
- Impact other things down-stream
- Decide that it wasn't just that one thing, but other things in general you also want to affect
- Make three more changes
- Succeed in making the first thing no longer good and possibly simply not worth while; in the meantime, the collected other changes suck the joy out of what were previously borderline options, pushing them further behind whatever the new meta is.

Only a very small number of things will be top of the heap / tier 1. The best players may only play tier 1, but moderately serious folks might play other close-enough tier 2s ... unless you make any and all tier-2 options just horribly suck.

You want, ultimately, some sort of pyramid shape to the chassis, weapons, etc. somewhat equilateral in shape. I'm not sure you guys are achieving that ... you don't want it to be too flat, as then everything looks the same and gets boring ... but these changes just leave me thinking the semi-serious options are just narrower and narrower.

*** (for the general semi-serious cash-paying player - not the few who are the absolute top, but that larger group a rank or so down who due simply to large size likely generate more $ for your company)

[SVK Puskin]

Take that Clanners! Haha!

[Koniks]

As sandpit said, I appreciate the information and the quick patch even if I disagree with the nerf. While I'm glad you brought in some players to test the new features, I am disappointed we weren't given a chance to try them on the PTS.

I also don't understand how it's possible to claim a desire for incremental changes when something like this is proposed and implemented. Is it April 1st? Because the actions directly contradict the words.

PPC and ERPPC speed reduced by 33% or more isn't a small change. It also still keeps them reasonably in sync with non-Gauss projectile speeds. That's fine for the Clans which probably needed the nerf. But it reinforces the PPC/AC meta in the I.S. Maybe that's needed to make them more competitive with the Clans?

The ERLL changes seem overboard. We're getting a ghost heat threshold change, a heat scale multiplier change, a duration change, and a base heat change. I get that the beam duration change offsets some of the heat changes. But why couldn't we just get a change to heat and then go from there?

[Macksheen]

Verkhne, on 07 August 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

WOW A single patch that will KILL both the Kit-Fox and Warhawk!! Very Impressive..


The Warhawk as hard point limited needs to run a number of either PPC or LL [built in heatsinks..many}. So what is it meant to do now?? I will be glad to point out Clan mechs NOT to buy..Kitfox, Adder, Nova, Summoner [this nerf will al affect it LOL] and Warhawk. I guess 3 out of 8 may generate some income??

Repeat after me: SUMMON SUCKY SUMMONER

[hybrid black]

BLOOD WOLF, on 07 August 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

my Elo is very good, I play well

well i have never seen you in any games and i drop vs the top teams so you cant be up that much haha and since you don't see ERLL being boated i know your a bottom feeder of ELO

[Firemage]

This is really and overnerf, I'm not a fan of ghost heat to start out, but to slap it on weapons that already ran hot to start with is just telling people to drop semi-stock load outs and go meta more.

Example of semi-stock or stock-themed, my T-Wolf prime carries 2 ERLL, 3 ERML, and 2 LRM 15, which is me just tweaking the stock load of the prime.

And really 2 CERLL created enough heat before hand as is with our poor underpower heat sinks.