950 replies to this topic

[Mazod]

Having played since open beta began, I have never posted anything about weapon system changes. In most cases I could see part of the reasoning for the nerf. As for the CERLL sorry I can't go along with this decision. Yes my fav mech is the DW, no I do not run any meta have always tried to run a mix of weapons. So now as I cross alpine at 53kph I have very little to protect myself from all the hilltop snipers, I am sure they will really fear my one CERLL. The DW runs hot enough as it is....but this change...we'll see i guess...was looking forward to buying the TW...holding on that thought now, cause I am afraid what other weapon systems are sitting in the nerf pipe waiting to come out.

[DrSlamastika]

This is insane. . . . and very sad. . . stupid PGI

[EvilCow]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

The heat back then is about what we have now. There were more issues with hit reg back then though.

Hit reg is still bad and this change puts at further disadvantage players with higher pings, it is wrong on so many levels...

If the reason is to balance clans with the IS, then, you are doing this for the wrong reason, clans are supposed to stomp IS in this timeline, you just have to model CW to reflect this.

Please stop this nonsense.

An IS-aligned player.

Edited by EvilCow, 08 August 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Uveron]

I am really hoping that someone at PGI will have spent some time last night thinking about this. As Decides not to implement this 'fix'. I very much doubt it, but with the number of folks who are not even complaining; Just getting ready to quit.

It makes me very sad, and makes me ponder what Legal Action I can take.

[Prezimonto]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

So are LRMs, but that doesn't mean they should be nerfed, reworked yes, but not straight up nerfed.

I agree, generally, with LRM's needing a rework entirely. I don't mind the extra 0.5 second beam time. I don't even begrudge the 1 laser ghost heat solution. But bumping the Ghost Heat factor up to 12 is definitely overkill. At 3, you've got a slightly hotter weapon set to fire 2, by 3 they're quite hot and by 4 they're over the top. At 12, firing 2 together is like firing 3 at once without ghost heat. It's not worth firing that for most mechs.

As usual, instead of making a series of incremental changes and monitoring how that affects the data, this change is multiple, over the top, and silly. It's like somewhere Paul was taught the best way to do things is pound the problem into the dust and then help it back up to it's knees after the fact. Instead he should make friends with the problem gradually until it goes away.

OR he should ditch all the duct-tape fixes for high alpha strikes and put in one of Homeless Bill's solutions.

[skorpionet]

I've read too many times "require high player skill" .....

[Quaamik]

Willothius, on 08 August 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

The heat penalty, unnecessarily complex as it is, only affects the 2nd laser if it fired within 0,5 seconds of the previous one fired.. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it won't affect the 2nd C-ERLL fired after 0,5 seconds, while the 1st one will still burn for 1,5 seconds..
Similarly, the 3rd and 4th successive ERLL fired will overlap with the previous ones, so basically, you can still have an (almost) continuous stream of 4 C-ERLL melting someones face without heat penalty..
..Only downside is the base heat number set to 12, as the difference between a proper shot after 0,5 s and one just too soon at 0,47 seconds is HUGE.. Weird PGI style numbers.. :S

Sounds like a proper tune-up, just takes some more skill now I guess, ........

Your wrong. The math adds up that way, but reality doesn't.

There are a limited number of buttons on a mouse or joystick. Unless you are using a build with all the same weapon, you normally assign different weapons to different groups, and slave differnt groups to different buttons. So your choices are:
A) boat all CERLasers, slaving one per button, and time your fireing like you said. Skill, but weapons limitation.
slave your CERLasers to a single button, firing incrementally. Firing speed is dictated by how the program runs which usually gives very little overlap from laser to laser (if any).
C) accept the heat penalty if you slave 2 or more to a button every time you use them.

Oh yeah, D) Cheat
Yes, I know there are people who program macros / routines to fire weaons at the rates they want, from hot keys, without grouping the weapons to a given key. You see it in many games if you observe after you die. But IMHO, since it's an outside program being brought into the game, it's cheating.

[Bigbacon]

so these changes come about because of the "top tier" of players?

really? the PPC wasn't a problem. the guass/ppc wasn't a real problem.

clan ERLL wasn't a real problem. so up the heat a bit and leave it. Hell so a 2 LL kitfox now has a penalty....

All the light PPC builds are now effectively dead I bet as you'll only be hitting slow heavies and the HSR will make it impossible to hit fast moving mechs.

if you only cater to your top tier players, then you've already failed because they make up a small minority of your player base.

still doesn't fix anything as you just nerfed IS mechs even more then against clans who have weapons that out range everything IS have to offer. (talking just range here)

again, neither one of these were a problem except to the obviously cry baby top tier players.

Edited by Bigbacon, 08 August 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[DrSlamastika]

PPC should be a sniper long range weapon. Nerfing the speed in unlogical

[POWR]

The best part is all the crying.

The problem with a license is that there's a bunch of people with preconceptions about how everything is supposed to work. The thing is, none of it worked before, and the whole "Mechwarrior" idea is fundamentally broken as a gamedesign. Doesn't mean it can't be fun, just don't think it's anything other than a broken mess of stuff. Just like it was in ALL previous itterations which were full of all kinds of weird bugs and problems. Which you've all conveniently forgotten.

Don't put this title or the license on a piedestal. There's a reason it's not popular.

Edited by POWR, 08 August 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Energy load was the better solution.

It could have been applied universally, and ghost heat removed entirely.

Then we'd have one rational system that would have been much easier to track in the game that limits alpha striking.

If you still WANT to alpha strike, give players an override/supercharge button. You can hit it, and take some damage to your engine to pull off a massive alpha strike.

[POWR]

Prezimonto, on 08 August 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Energy load was the better solution.

It could have been applied universally, and ghost heat removed entirely.

Then we'd have one rational system that would have been much easier to track in the game that limits alpha striking.

If you still WANT to alpha strike, give players an override/supercharge button. You can hit it, and take some damage to your engine to pull off a massive alpha strike.

BUT THAT IS NOT CANON!

[Bigbacon]

POWR, on 08 August 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

The best part is all the crying.

The problem with a license is that there's a bunch of people with preconceptions about how everything is supposed to work. The thing is, none of it worked before, and the whole "Mechwarrior" idea is fundamentally broken as a gamedesign. Doesn't mean it can't be fun, just don't think it's anything other than a broken mess of stuff. Just like it was in ALL previous itterations which were full of all kinds of weird bugs and problems. Which you've all conveniently forgotten.

Don't put this title or the license on a piedestal. There's a reason it's not popular.

bugs and problems are different than what people are complaining about here..you didn't see game and weapon mechanics being patched in previous games because the elite players cried about it...

[POWR]

Bigbacon, on 08 August 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

bugs and problems are different than what people are complaining about here..you didn't see game and weapon mechanics being patched in previous games because the elite players cried about it...

You didn't see those things being patched in those games because noone gave a damn and patches in the days before the Internet and MMOs were so few and far between that they were almost unheard of.

[Zelumbras]

At first i wanted to rage about overnerfing, crumbling trust and whatnot but after i wrote all this stuff down, i deletet it and decided that instead i'd try to give some more constructive feedback.


PPC projectile speed nerf:
IS PPC: 1500 m/s -> 850 m/s (-43.3%)
IS/C ERPPC: 1500 m/s -> 950 m/s (-36.6%)

I understand why this had to be done but i do not understand why instead of an incremental nerf it was kicked down so far; but will have to see how this plays out.


C-ER-LL all around nerf:
Beam Duration: 1.5s -> 2.0s (+33%) this relates to a 9.5% nerf in group fire total dps but 33%(!) nerf for chainfiring
Heat: 8.5 -> 9.0 (+5.9%)
Ghost heat free: 2 -> 1 (-50%)
Heat Penalty Multiplier: 3 -> 12 (+300%)

I can agree that the CERLL needed a nerf but why would you change pretty much all its stats at once? The ISLL can chainfire four beams in one cycle so the CERLL should be able to atleast fire three which would translates to a beam duration of <1.625s. I agree on the heat increase and heat multiplier increase but why change beam duration and ghost heat free count when you could simply increase the heat more (maybe 9.5 or even higher because of its huge range).

What will happen remains to be seen but i believe it is safe to assume that a lot of players will shift their loadouts towards the CERML or CERLPL instead. The LPL is already weaker DPS-wise than its IS counterpart (should really have 0.9 to 1.1s beam duration imo) so we will probably mostly see people boating CERMLs. That again will lead to a nerf for the CERML and if said nerf is anything close to the kick in the lower frontal CT the CERLL recieved, it makes mechs like the NVA-Prime non-viable (old-Awesome syndrom).


From playing since April 2013 i understand that your usual way of balancing means to overbuff/-nerf something and then interpolate between the former and the overtuned value. Whether i like it personally or not, as an engineer i have to admit that successive interpolation is indeed a viable way to find a decent value for a given variable. But changing more than 1-2 related variables is little better than guessing. Why not making small (semi-)weekly balancing changes instead of this?

Edited by Vulcan888, 08 August 2014 - 04:56 AM.

[Prezimonto]

POWR, on 08 August 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

BUT THAT IS NOT CANON!

Not sure if serious or trolling.... This is the forums after-all.

Neither is Ghost Heat.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

So clan Mechs that wish to use ERLLs as their primary long range weapon just got shafted. Big time. I usually accept changes because I can accept them but this? The warhawk is now gimped. The stormcrow prime is also gimped. The scoutfox is neutered...

Feels like a knee jerk reaction to put out some fires and not a real fix. This will make dual gauss or multi ppc the king yet again. I thought that promoting a single meta build was bad.

[Shlkt]

My $0.02:
The beam duration increase is excessive IMO, but the heat penalty sounds reasonable as long as the C-ER LL retains its extreme range superiority. Most builds will still be able to alpha with 3 of them without shutting down: that's 34 damage up to 1000 meters away and you don't even have to lead the target.

With PPCs and ER PPCs becoming much harder to use at range I suspect a heat reduction on the ER PPC might not be a bad idea.

[B0oN]

Fix HSR first for ALL pings, THEN setup weapon properties .
Not that hard, or ?

[Grey Death Storm]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 August 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors!

Please let us know your thoughts on the next major balance changes to weapon systems



Don't forget to check out Russ' Tweets on the Clan vs IS!

I have something to say:


How about you don't Nerf Clan weapons anymore Period!!, PPC and ER Large Laser, This begs to differ the question why bother using PPC cannon if you are going to slow down speed it takes PPC to hit a target why would i want that!!!.

Leave clan Er Laser alone, if you add more heat to Clan weapons it becomes an even bigger nightmare for pilots who use them when their mechs overheat in battle.

A point to be made here: a lot people including myself paid lot money for these Clan Mechs and Weapons The Clan mech were initially already majorly Nerfed, Clan Weapons do not need any more nerfs thank. I for one want my moneys worth for what i paid for these Clan mechs and i can assure you it was well into £100-£200 border line so please STOP NERFING Clans Mechs and their weapon anymore.

I am not trying to be pain in butt but I have to express my opinion Those Clan Mechs were far more expensive than Inner Sphere Mech we all have paid a lot of money for these mech and I wish the Developers can appreciate what i am trying say here I am totally against any more Nerfs to Clan technology as I my self and other people paid a hefty Fee for these Clan Mech we deserved our moneys worth and I mean that with no disrespect to anyone.

Plus you can now buy clan Mech for Cbills so everyone can get there hands on Clan Mechs.

Also do as a favour and remove the 2 button mechanics used in Guass Cannon it main reason why i never use Guass Cannon anymore

Edited by Death Storm, 08 August 2014 - 05:00 AM.