692 replies to this topic

[bobF]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 09 August 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

I disagree with your entire premise. I didn't pay money so I would have an equipment advantage, and I don't want one. In fact my best mechs for grinding C-Bills and the ones I enjoy piloting the most are ones' I paid for with C-Bills. My DS is nice, but I have more fun and make more space cash in my Raven 3L, and do far more damage in my Atlas AS7-D-DC. My overall favorite mech is my BJ-1 due to it's balance of speed, agility and firepower.

I have spent MC on premium time, mech bays, Hero mechs, paint and once even converted XP.. I plan on purchasing more swag for my cockpits and more paints and camo patterns.. None of these was done so I would gain an advantage on the battle field.

You don't need to make a F2P P2W to have it be viable.. Make it fun and provide for cash content that doesn't make you a better player, but adds to your flair and sense of individuality.. Look at TF2.. Valve is BANKING on the economics they put into that game. None of that stuff is P2W.. Hats, beards, ******* birds on your shoulder.. But people love it, and will pay through the nose if they can afford it.

TF2 had a retail price tag for how long before it became f2p? Valve is simply taking care of one of it's golden gooses, and you left out the weapons and weapon sets which a ton of people buy, and they provide advantage.

If what you prefer to spend your money on is flash and aesthetics, it's all good. My rant is directed at those seeing the nerf bat coming, and trying to use **!!SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS!!** to preserve a $50+ investment in stomping face on the battlefield. I don't care if people p2w, just be honest about it. And if you pay-2-lookgud instead, I think you're awesome and i'm not talking about you. Good looks open doors, good hair blows the hinges off.

[Hobgoblin I]

Mcgral18, on 09 August 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Ideally, both parties should have Clan mechs (or swap accounts...risky for some) and switch sides every now and then. Mix the teams up at whatever rate as well.

This should mix the pilots up, to prevent a better team from winning every time, no matter the mechs. It should also help to see if the Clan side has a significant advantage. Switch from 12 VS 10 to 12 VS 12 if it becomes too lopsided.



That should get some data, with limited bias.

This is basically the difference between a statistical analysis and a controlled experiment, but you should be looking at only a single variable (clan tech vs. IS tech). It would be very difficult to set up outside of PGI's own testing labs.

As for the better team winning every time..if the better team were to win by a wider or smaller margin consistently playing one particular side you will have learned something.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

bobF, on 09 August 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

TF2 had a retail price tag for how long before it became f2p? Valve is simply taking care of one of it's golden gooses, and you left out the weapons and weapon sets which a ton of people buy, and they provide advantage.

If what you prefer to spend your money on is flash and aesthetics, it's all good. My rant is directed at those seeing the nerf bat coming, and trying to use **!!SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS!!** to preserve a $50+ investment in stomping face on the battlefield. I don't care if people p2w, just be honest about it. And if you pay-2-lookgud instead, I think you're awesome and i'm not talking about you. Good looks open doors, good hair blows the hinges off.

Have you played TF2? The weapons are a perfect example of different but not better. And those can all be farmed through random drops. It doesn't matter if it was for pay originally.. The price tag was around $30 bucks.. I spent that on MWO my first week. It's essentially the same thing.

[IraqiWalker]

Hobgoblin I, on 09 August 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Well, players of any skill level can buy clan mechs. The experience factor was taken into account with the prediction of a 60/40 split...it was 90/10.

yes, they CAN, but doesn't mean they do. Even by PGI's admission, more Vets are on the clan side. Add to it that this was using PuG drops, and you can see how all of the factors listed thrgouhout this thread can lead to such a massive result.

[Adiuvo]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 09 August 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Have you played TF2? The weapons are a perfect example of different but not better. And those can all be farmed through random drops. It doesn't matter if it was for pay originally.. The price tag was around $30 bucks.. I spent that on MWO my first week. It's essentially the same thing.

TF2 isn't exactly the best balanced game out there... it used to be alright, but the classes are so muddied now and there are still some long standing problems that Valve has completely failed to address. See, Demoman.

I mean it's a fun game for what it is - a casual shooter - but it was never intended to be a competitive game and never had its development head towards that path.

Edited by Adiuvo, 09 August 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Adiuvo, on 09 August 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

TF2 isn't exactly the best balanced game out there... it used to be alright, but the classes are so muddied now and there are still some long standing problems that Valve has completely failed to address. See, Demoman.

I mean it's a fun game for what it is - a casual shooter - but it was never intended to be a competitive game and never had it's development head towards that path.

I can agree with that,, But the for cash items are not P2W... Most of it is purely cosmetic. In fact the most expensive stuff is facial hair and the like. The special weapons all have drawbacks that balance out the special things they do.. I bought several and found even more and for the most part, I preferred the original.

[Hobgoblin I]

IraqiWalker, on 09 August 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

yes, they CAN, but doesn't mean they do. Even by PGI's admission, more Vets are on the clan side. Add to it that this was using PuG drops, and you can see how all of the factors listed thrgouhout this thread can lead to such a massive result.

Again, yes, PGI did admit that more vets were on the clan side. The amount of that difference predicted at 60/40 outcome. Why do you keep harping on that when it was accounted for? Yes, it was pug drops, pug drops for both sides. One, what difference does that make when both sides are pugs. Two, I believe PGI has said that most of the total of the games drops are pug drops, that would then be, most likely, what they want to balance the most.

[IraqiWalker]

Hobgoblin I, on 09 August 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Again, yes, PGI did admit that more vets were on the clan side. The amount of that difference predicted at 60/40 outcome. Why do you keep harping on that when it was accounted for? Yes, it was pug drops, pug drops for both sides. One, what difference does that make when both sides are pugs. Two, I believe PGI has said that most of the total of the games drops are pug drops, that would then be, most likely, what they want to balance the most.

1- PGI said accounted for, but they didn't really (at least not as effectively as they claim), especially considering that there was a lot of variance.

2- In PuG drops when both sides are PuGs, clans have the advantage because the most common tactic used by the overwhelming majority (easily over 95% of all pug players) is in favor of clan equipment. If the PuG tactics were geared towards brawling and short range combat, the result would be skewed the other way around.

3- If both sides were NOT PuGs the results would be a lot more balanced, it makes a huge difference when you use a weapon that is effective only against pugs and then declare it OP against everyone else.

4- Look at LRMs, not clan or IS, just LRMs, in the PuG queue, they are a massive factor, in fact there has not gone a day on these forums without someone creating or posting in an LRMs are OP thread. The exact same thing is happening here.

5- the test was ONLY PuG drops. It Ignored premade matches completely. As for the stat about most drops are solo drops:

Spoiler

When you spend 2+ years marginalizing and discouraging group play, people switch to solo play, hence why the stat says 84% of all drops are solo drops, and that particular stat is held as one of the best examples of PGI's ineptitude in both calculation, and understanding the consequences of their actions.

Only recently did they start helping groups, by allowing 4+ groups.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 09 August 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[wanderer]

I can tell you why there was a 90% win rate for the Clans.

Variance. My ELO is decently up there- I'll end up seeing Lords occasionally in my queue like heimdelight or Wispby.

During the IS vs Clan for the brief period I checked, I was getting team-mates still in their cadet bonus stage. The MM was averaging out ELO by putting inexperienced players with experienced ones to put the -team- ELO within similar numbers (and even then, Clan forces were marginally higher on average), while Clan teams rarely had the same problem as most people at this stage had spent money and were at the least, pilots with much more cockpit time than the IS ones.

I think most of us know what happens in PUG drops when you have a few total newbies get faceplanted early and the snowball of superior numbers begins to roll. I rapidly got into my single, lonely MC-bought Kit Fox and joined the roflstomping instead. Easy grind for the exp to elite/master the thing when you'd have to collectively be in a nose-picking contest to lose, right? And it was.

That "snowball" of perceptive folks fleeing the IS newbie millstone-around-the-neck happened in a hurry, and in turn made the high-low combo of IS teams even worse, leading to the near-constant stream of reamings the Clan delivered. It utterly flusterclucked any data you could manage about chassis performance vs. comparable IS forces, other than giving you easily presented numbers for "OMG CLAN IS SUPER OP!".

[Gobtcha]

Well IS pilots need to improve and Clan pilots are doing their job.

[wanderer]

Gobtcha, on 09 August 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Well IS pilots need to improve and Clan pilots are doing their job.

They're one and the same pilots, but given a noob-free experience opportunity, the smarter pilots who had them proceeded to run a Clan chassis, and the ones that didn't got stuck with anchor pilots "averaging" them into the gutter.

If anything, it's a testament to how a few poorer pilots can utterly destroy a team's chances of winning.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

wanderer, on 09 August 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

They're one and the same pilots, but given a noob-free experience opportunity, the smarter pilots who had them proceeded to run a Clan chassis, and the ones that didn't got stuck with anchor pilots "averaging" them into the gutter.

If anything, it's a testament to how a few poorer pilots can utterly destroy a team's chances of winning.

Not really.. If anything, it's a testament to how far people will reach to fit the results into their desired viewpoint..

You don't have any data to back up your stance, but it "feels" right to you so you cling to this one point in order to validate your opinion.

[Creovex]

IMO....

**** testing.... PGI doesn't really show expertise in it (no offense, but its not really your Forte)... So I say put it in PROD for 1 week, give out 7 days of premium time to everyone for that week and revert it back to the old code at the end.

This will get you all the metrics you need. Issues with people playing down or throwing games will be tiny percentages that you can write off and you will be able to really assess points of concern/changes BEFORE the perminent change goes in... .

With this company and the playerbase they have.... this is the best method to gather data. ***Hell we played for years with SRM issues so we can tolerate a week of MM issues**

Edited by Creovex, 09 August 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

wanderer, on 09 August 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I can tell you why there was a 90% win rate for the Clans.

Variance. My ELO is decently up there- I'll end up seeing Lords occasionally in my queue like heimdelight or Wispby.

During the IS vs Clan for the brief period I checked, I was getting team-mates still in their cadet bonus stage. The MM was averaging out ELO by putting inexperienced players with experienced ones to put the -team- ELO within similar numbers (and even then, Clan forces were marginally higher on average), while Clan teams rarely had the same problem as most people at this stage had spent money and were at the least, pilots with much more cockpit time than the IS ones.

I think most of us know what happens in PUG drops when you have a few total newbies get faceplanted early and the snowball of superior numbers begins to roll. I rapidly got into my single, lonely MC-bought Kit Fox and joined the roflstomping instead. Easy grind for the exp to elite/master the thing when you'd have to collectively be in a nose-picking contest to lose, right? And it was.

That "snowball" of perceptive folks fleeing the IS newbie millstone-around-the-neck happened in a hurry, and in turn made the high-low combo of IS teams even worse, leading to the near-constant stream of reamings the Clan delivered. It utterly flusterclucked any data you could manage about chassis performance vs. comparable IS forces, other than giving you easily presented numbers for "OMG CLAN IS SUPER OP!".

Your theory about what happened isn't really supported by any facts at all. Explain why the MM assembled IS teams of noobs and elites, yet the clans had homogeneous teams of relatively equal skill.. All the median level players switched to clans, leaving only noobs and ubers to pilot IS mechs? This doesn't make any sense.

Explain what the mechanism was in place that prevented the MM from making relatively even sides, because I don't see it.. Not to the tune of 90% probability for victory.

[bobF]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 09 August 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Have you played TF2? The weapons are a perfect example of different but not better. And those can all be farmed through random drops. It doesn't matter if it was for pay originally.. The price tag was around $30 bucks.. I spent that on MWO my first week. It's essentially the same thing.

Have YOU played TF2? Rockets that heal me, or go faster, or dont require ammo and are chargable are better than the defaults. Melee weapons that one-hit certain classes are better than the default (or all classes, if you merrily abuse the omgwtfbbq caber). Weapon sets that give me bonuses and buffs are better than zero bonuses and buffs. TF2 is replayable because I feel the balance is pretty good, and the system is open enough that you're not required to really buy anything, you can farm for crafting or hope for a drop. But go log in right now and tell me how many people you see using default gear. Nobody.

Here in MWO, clan mechs are cash only, and clearly superior. While I appreciate your argument, it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

[Mcgral18]

bobF, on 09 August 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

Have YOU played TF2? Rockets that heal me, or go faster, or dont require ammo and are chargable are better than the defaults. Melee weapons that one-hit certain classes are better than the default (or all classes, if you merrily abuse the omgwtfbbq caber). Weapon sets that give me bonuses and buffs are better than zero bonuses and buffs. TF2 is replayable because I feel the balance is pretty good, and the system is open enough that you're not required to really buy anything, you can farm for crafting or hope for a drop. But go log in right now and tell me how many people you see using default gear. Nobody.

Here in MWO, clan mechs are cash only, and clearly superior. While I appreciate your argument, it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

No one is using stock gear, because stock mechs are absolute garbage. Same goes for Clan stock builds, though since they have DHS some are useable.


Besides, how many trouble chassis are there? 3? I don't feel it's too bad, really. I can merrily go about in my 400XL Banshee and kill them, without dying myself. I do feel pretty fragile in my BlackJack though, but that's always been the case in this game.

I can get that Banshee for free. Though, I suppose some people have different tolerances for perceived imbalance.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

bobF, on 09 August 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

Have YOU played TF2? Rockets that heal me, or go faster, or dont require ammo and are chargable are better than the defaults. Melee weapons that one-hit certain classes are better than the default (or all classes, if you merrily abuse the omgwtfbbq caber). Weapon sets that give me bonuses and buffs are better than zero bonuses and buffs. TF2 is replayable because I feel the balance is pretty good, and the system is open enough that you're not required to really buy anything, you can farm for crafting or hope for a drop. But go log in right now and tell me how many people you see using default gear. Nobody.

Here in MWO, clan mechs are cash only, and clearly superior. While I appreciate your argument, it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

Ok, you are right.. It's a bad comparison. My point being that there is a way for PGI to make money without MWO being P2W. The hero chassis don't really seem to qualify since there are many c-bill meta builds that compete with any of the heroes IMO.

People will spend plenty of money on paint schemes, swag, war horns, premium time, premium consumables and early access to mech chassis that are not out of balance. What PGI needs to focus on is content that will not only bring in new players, but keep the base they have.. The more players making micro-exchanges the better..

The worst thing you can do to keep your player base playing and making those micro-exchanges is what is happening right now. Alienation of paying customers by making their previous (and even recent) purchases obsolete by introducing superior technology behind a paywall while play stagnates in a state of arena team death match on a sparse few maps.

It's great that CW is coming.. It's absolutely necessary to keep this game alive.. But the only way that is going to work is by balancing the sides. Going to 12-10 or whatever is not going to work because most players are going to want the "upgrade" and switch to clans.. That will leave the IS with a dwindling base of noob pilots that are still saving up for their "upgrade".

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 09 August 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

A variance of 40 to 90 Elo pts equates to a 5 to 10 percent swing in win/loss.

I get the desire to say that the 90/10 figure is somehow inaccurate.... but its not. Clans are indeed op overall. Just realize that a small overall per mech advantage can equate to a large overall w/l swing.

[IraqiWalker]

wanderer, on 09 August 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

They're one and the same pilots, but given a noob-free experience opportunity, the smarter pilots who had them proceeded to run a Clan chassis, and the ones that didn't got stuck with anchor pilots "averaging" them into the gutter.

If anything, it's a testament to how a few poorer pilots can utterly destroy a team's chances of winning.

Having a (C) mech on your team drops that player's combat effectiveness considerably, and drops the team's chance of winning almost as much.

Phaeric Cyrh, on 09 August 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Your theory about what happened isn't really supported by any facts at all. Explain why the MM assembled IS teams of noobs and elites, yet the clans had homogeneous teams of relatively equal skill.. All the median level players switched to clans, leaving only noobs and ubers to pilot IS mechs? This doesn't make any sense.

Explain what the mechanism was in place that prevented the MM from making relatively even sides, because I don't see it.. Not to the tune of 90% probability for victory.

Most considerably because clans don't have anywhere near as many newbs (not noobs, different). That is a huge factor.

Followed by the fact that 95% of all matches are in favor of the clans to begin with {Because PuG tactics, as mentioned above are almost always favoring clan equipment (95% isn't an exaggeration), not because clan tech is super OP}.

Basically 95% of all matches are stacked in favor of the clans right off the bat. The fact that the clans won 90% isn't as a big a surprise now that I have taken a step back, and considered all the factors at play. It's still a lot. However, considering the most experienced part of the player base was most likely doing group drops (can't deny the impact of group dynamics), the pool for testing is still bad.

So to re-iterate:

1- Newb players kept exclusively on the IS side (with inflated elo since they they start near the middle {even after it was lowered})

2- Noob players on both sides using the same "long range poke for 10 minutes" tactic that favors clan equipment (massive majority)

3- still incomplete documentation on what clan equipment does, and sucks at (I'll bet you most people think clan Active Probe works like IS BAP, and almost all still don't know what the quirks on the clan mechs are, or what their hitboxes are like)

4- No re-spawn allowing for an early game loss of one or two mechs to snow ball the opposing team into an easy win, even a full stomp.

5- Absolutely Borked Elo-based MM that matches people on their 5th match with the likes of Eglar, or JaguarXII, and considers the "average" elo, okay.

6- People being taught thanks to the poptart meta, than hiding and poking are the best things to do.


Those 6 factors are the 6 major ones (there are a few minor ones still), that helped lead to a result like this.

[Ace Selin]

Everyone knew the Clan mechs were OP, the only people who were saying any different were the people who had Clan mechs, knew they were OP but still wanted to keep that advantage as long as they could.