104 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Techorse, on 12 August 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Wait a minute, I could of sworn other founders were accusing PGI of picking and choosing which TT rules to ignore or implement.

Yes, this was pointed out. Even in closed beta. Pgi left out all of the stuff that simulated the 'mech's part of the aiming equation because they mistakenly seem to have thought that it simulated mechwarrior/pilot skill.

They picked up the combat damage and armor numbers but not the combat mechanics those numbers worked in.

Blakkstar, on 12 August 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Clan and IS mechs are not supposed to be balanced. That's kind of the whole point of Clan mechs. How does the TT system fix this? Battle Value. Not a perfect system, but if all mechs in the game were scored by Battle Value and MM built teams based on it, it would go a long way toward fixing the problems. BV takes into account the tonnage and tech of the mech, and also pilot skill...which would be easily replaced by ELO in this game.

BV is not the only balancing factor - there's also the restraints on clan toys put on them by their rarity (there's actually numerically less of them) ... and they're harder to maintain; and the clan economies restrain them too, not mentioning that a robust implementation of the clan ROE's and honor rules is entirely possible too. BV is a big step towards evening out the clanners tech advantage, but not the only tool in the toolbox.

IIIuminaughty, on 12 August 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

This game is based on skill, we don't roll any dices here.

This is actually a rather gross strawman. It's possible to convert over the stuff that simulates the 'mech WITHOUT converting over any of the human-skill simulating parts of the TT.

Besides which, even the stuff that simulates the 'mechs doesn't make for nonsense - for instance, it's impossible to aim for the toe and hit the cockpit in the TT. People just fail to realize that the basic tables represent ... aiming for center of mass. Not aiming for a specific location or component, or even a small section of a 'mech, which other tables represent.

Edited by Pht, 12 August 2014 - 08:33 AM.

[stjobe]

Corerule ignore.
For great justice.

...I don't know, OP reminds me of Zero Wing for some reason.

Either way, I'd be perfectly fine with MWO ignoring every single TT rule as long as it stayed true to BT lore. I'd rather have a game that feels like BattleTech than a game that religiously preserves every die modifier of the TT rules.

[Alistair Winter]

MecatamaMk2, on 12 August 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

this is ONLINE, NOT BOARD.
MWO bound bt boardgame.

for balance. corerule ignore.

Edit: Sauce

Edited by Alistair Winter, 12 August 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[kuangmk11]

They ignored 90% of the TT rules from the start.

[Pht]

stjobe, on 12 August 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Either way, I'd be perfectly fine with MWO ignoring every single TT rule as long as it stayed true to BT lore. I'd rather have a game that feels like BattleTech than a game that religiously preserves every die modifier of the TT rules.

At one point I was with you... until I learned a few things, directly from the people who ... wrote for the lore and *control* the entire lore.

http://bg.battletech...ic,26178.0.html

Boiled down: As far as was/is possible, the 'mechs in the lore actually perform like they do in the rules - this has actually *been enforced.* Obviously character fiat and such will break this rule (although oddly, not as much as I first thought).

If you want the feel from the novels and the short stories and fluff text ... converting over the tt stuff (not just the basic game, but the advanced rues too) and adding in a few pieces is what will get that for you.

[stjobe]

Pht, on 12 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

If you want the feel from the novels and the short stories and fluff text ... converting over the tt stuff (not just the basic game, but the advanced rues too) and adding in a few pieces is what will get that for you.

Yeah, that was rather the (too) subtle point I was trying to make.

[Dawnstealer]

But has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

[Lexx]

WM Wraith, on 12 August 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Can we make this in to bumper stickers for our mechs? Think we just found our new MWO slogan.

All your mechs are belong to us

For great justice take off every LRM!

Main engine turn on we get signal

Edited by Lexx, 12 August 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Mechteric]

They're already not 100% accurate to the board game, which is 100% expected due to being real time.


It doesn't mean certain aspects of the game should be changed just for the hell of it ((ghost heat, I'm looking at you)) unless it makes sense (beam duration is ok as long as its not too long). Fun and balance with nods towards what makes the game good and unique should be the goal.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 12 August 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Lexx, on 12 August 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

All your mechs are belong to us

For great justice take off every LRM!

Main engine turn on we get signal

WHATTT??!

[Mercules]

Fierostetz, on 12 August 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

I'd recommend ignoring or "re-interpreting" the majority of tabletop rules.

Actually ignoring TT rules is why the game is unbalanced.

Heat - MWO huge threshold before it hurts you no growing penalties as heat goes up. TT as you heat up your mech has issues. Targeting becomes harder, your speed drops, and you risk ammo explosions or shutting down. The higher your heat goes the worse the penalties.

See, they decided not to follow TT heat and so we can fire-fire-fire-fire right up until we hit the threshold where you shutdown. So alpha striking is more intelligent than slowly building up heat. Alpha strike till near threshold then duck into cover.

JJs - MWO slowly lift you up, you float around, the shake goes away when the JJ isn't on so you can fire with no penalties to firing allowing you to poptart effectively. TT jumping gives you a -3 to hit which is pretty high in a 2d6 system, that is roughly a 30% less chance of hitting in TT here it is... no less chance. In TT jumping also rockets you from one place to another moving you forward/sideways/back/up at up to 87kph.

Pinpoint Convergence - In MWO if you fire 10 weapons they most likely all hit the same exact spot of a mech. They all hit right where you point. In TT you are lucky if all 10 weapons even hit the mech, much less the same spot. So armor had to be doubled or mechs wouldn't last very long. Even doubling wasn't enough though.

Rate of Fire - In MWO you fire 2-4 times compared to TT. Now I wouldn't want to fire once per 10 seconds but the abstraction is that over 10 seconds a Medium Laser does X heat and Y damage. Let it fire 3 times but spread the heat and damage between those shots or ignore recycle on lasers and pressing the button means they are on and spread the damage/heat out over 10 seconds. Follows TT AND means amor didn't have to double/triple/quadruple.

ECM - Wow do you guys not know what ECM should be doing because MWO turned it into a god piece of equipment. In TT it is handy and nice, but not needed on mechs. Here you need it on someone on your side. Same with TAG, BAP, NARC and so much more. You should have access to all kinds of sensors and skilled pilots should be able to spoof your scanners with ECM. So seismic might get a false signal of 3 mechs to the right and 2 to the left when really there are only the 2 to the left.

LRMs- part of the issue with ECM is how they did LRMs which are either useless or over powered depending on the skill of the target and if they have certain gear that negates LRMs. Stupid implementation of weapons and systems.

...and so much more. PGI ISN'T following TT core rules and THAT is why crap is broken. They are following some but ignoring complete swaths of them and that partial implementation makes it seem like the ones they are following are imbalanced. I mean Battle Value would go really far towards balancing someone bringing a Locust instead of a Raven.

[Mercules]

stjobe, on 12 August 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Corerule ignore.
For great justice.

...I don't know, OP reminds me of Zero Wing for some reason.

Either way, I'd be perfectly fine with MWO ignoring every single TT rule as long as it stayed true to BT lore. I'd rather have a game that feels like BattleTech than a game that religiously preserves every die modifier of the TT rules.

Well, MWO doesn't stay true to the lore and doesn't even come close to pretending to follow TT rules. If you follow TT rules minorly adjusted for real time play, you will end up with a game that resembles the BT lore and books.

[FDJustin]

Alistair Winter, on 12 August 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Edit: Sauce

This is my new desktop background image.

[Clit Beastwood]

Mercules, on 12 August 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Actually ignoring TT rules is why the game is unbalanced.

Heat - MWO huge threshold before it hurts you no growing penalties as heat goes up. TT as you heat up your mech has issues. Targeting becomes harder, your speed drops, and you risk ammo explosions or shutting down. The higher your heat goes the worse the penalties.

See, they decided not to follow TT heat and so we can fire-fire-fire-fire right up until we hit the threshold where you shutdown. So alpha striking is more intelligent than slowly building up heat. Alpha strike till near threshold then duck into cover.

JJs - MWO slowly lift you up, you float around, the shake goes away when the JJ isn't on so you can fire with no penalties to firing allowing you to poptart effectively. TT jumping gives you a -3 to hit which is pretty high in a 2d6 system, that is roughly a 30% less chance of hitting in TT here it is... no less chance. In TT jumping also rockets you from one place to another moving you forward/sideways/back/up at up to 87kph.

Pinpoint Convergence - In MWO if you fire 10 weapons they most likely all hit the same exact spot of a mech. They all hit right where you point. In TT you are lucky if all 10 weapons even hit the mech, much less the same spot. So armor had to be doubled or mechs wouldn't last very long. Even doubling wasn't enough though.

Rate of Fire - In MWO you fire 2-4 times compared to TT. Now I wouldn't want to fire once per 10 seconds but the abstraction is that over 10 seconds a Medium Laser does X heat and Y damage. Let it fire 3 times but spread the heat and damage between those shots or ignore recycle on lasers and pressing the button means they are on and spread the damage/heat out over 10 seconds. Follows TT AND means amor didn't have to double/triple/quadruple.

ECM - Wow do you guys not know what ECM should be doing because MWO turned it into a god piece of equipment. In TT it is handy and nice, but not needed on mechs. Here you need it on someone on your side. Same with TAG, BAP, NARC and so much more. You should have access to all kinds of sensors and skilled pilots should be able to spoof your scanners with ECM. So seismic might get a false signal of 3 mechs to the right and 2 to the left when really there are only the 2 to the left.

LRMs- part of the issue with ECM is how they did LRMs which are either useless or over powered depending on the skill of the target and if they have certain gear that negates LRMs. Stupid implementation of weapons and systems.

...and so much more. PGI ISN'T following TT core rules and THAT is why crap is broken. They are following some but ignoring complete swaths of them and that partial implementation makes it seem like the ones they are following are imbalanced. I mean Battle Value would go really far towards balancing someone bringing a Locust instead of a Raven.

don't shoot the translator!

[HlynkaCG]

Technoviking, on 12 August 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

If we exercise together, we can have both.

Obviously exercise is OP and needs to be nerfed

[Lil Cthulhu]

that is the most quotable thing I've seen in a long time.

[PANZERKAT]

lartfor, on 12 August 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

Wait, TT rule sets don't transfer over to a real time first person shooter very well? Who would have thought....

Using BV would have solved many problems with "mech balancing". Work is already done.

[wolf74]

Without the Core Rules you would have a Anime Style Fighting game with Power up, on the field, and Attacks like "Super Robot Ultimate Blow up the Local Moon Cannon Blast ATTACK!" and high odds are that attack would only be allowed on Golden Mecha too.

[Kyrie]

I enjoyed this thread more than is reasonable. Please carry on. :-)

[stjobe]

Mercules, on 12 August 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Well, MWO doesn't stay true to the lore and doesn't even come close to pretending to follow TT rules. If you follow TT rules minorly adjusted for real time play, you will end up with a game that resembles the BT lore and books.

That was my point (although I realize I was being a bit too subtle about it).