116 replies to this topic

[Woodstock]

[EDMW]CSN, on 20 November 2011 - 05:08 AM, said:

In EVE they gave you a rookie ship or something to keep on playing if you lost your ship and docked to any affiliated faction space station. Maybe a rookie mech like a cheap Flea or something really banged up ?

I am kinda more forgiving here. But restarting over only really applies to mercs. House units will retain the pilot as long he is alive....

In eve though the game mechanics are very detailed ... transversal velocity ...speed ... weapon size and target size etc etc ...also its a select target and start shooting system ...not a FPS ... so balance comes from the game stats ... bigger guns can simulate not being able to hit smaller ones .... in an FPS ... the big guns just hit harder ... balance goes out the window.

Bigger becomes better in this system.

So having a tiny starter mech would only encourage the grind/race for IS-7

This may be why they have said we can start in all classes ... to help prevent this race to the 100tonners.

The DEV's will still have to work on rolls to make lights REALLY practical

[ice trey]

I voted "Assault or under"

Reason being is that The People that Be are toting the whole concept of "Every 'mech filling a role" very loudly and proudly. If they're not just peeing in our ears and telling us it's raining, then it really should not matter whether you take a light or an assault - they should be balanced so that, while a light can't expect to take on an assault and win alone, a small group of 2 or 3 should have a reasonable chance to take one down.

However, if the premise that a Light is useful for anything is nothing but a hoax (They tout that scouts give you an advantage by letting you see the battlefield in advance, but how does seeing the battlefield impart an advantage significant enough to make players want to do more than spam heavies and assault mechs all day, er'ry day?), then I would expect that you should start out in a light - that way, at least you have to work up to getting that Assault 'mech.

[feor]

The Devs have said again and again and again that a bigger mech WILL NOT equal a better mech.

Alot of good your Atlas will be when you don't have any scouts to see that flanking force coming around the side of your base.

A Medium mech can stand up to an assault, but they have to rely on maneuverability and cunning to win the day, not "I'mma stand here and shoot you till you fall over!" stupidity.

Also, if I was in an Atlas, and a Locust was dumb enough to try and circle strafe me, I'd just wait for the bit where he runs past in front of me and bury him. A Locust fighting an Atlas will probably spend as much time going backwards as forward, running literal circles around him is the worst thing you can do.

[feor]

J Echo, on 20 November 2011 - 07:20 AM, said:

Irrelevant--this isn't the novels, you know?

Yes it is, this is a game, based on the universe established in the Novels, to disregard them is to make this, very simply, no longer a mechwarrior game, and make it simply Generic Mecha-Combat Sim #526.

[Threat Doc]

J Echo, on 20 November 2011 - 03:54 AM, said:

Ugh. I would rather have a system where a virtual pilot is retired when he/she can't afford a replacement mech. Nothing like removing the account, but simply the player must start over again from scratch as though he'd just signed up for the game.

Example: I sign up for MO, I get the starting Jenner, I made some cash, I buy a Warhamer. I get my **** kicked, lose my Warhammer, lose my Jenner. Game over. My pilot loses all of his experience and what little cash he has remaining, and then he starts over with a new Jenner and the normal starting amount of c-bills, exactly like a new pilot.

Here's an alternate idea. There HAS to be some manner of loss for getting a 'Mech shot out from under your in-game pilot, I would think. So, what could some of those things be? Loss of skill percentage, loss of piloting or gunnery skill, maybe choice of loss of an item one has purchased.

When you go out on the street and buy a hot dog from a rolling vendor because you're hungry, you work to sate that hunger, right? You eat the hot dog and it's gone, -your stomach is full and you get temporary use from that hot dog in the way of nutrients, fats, calories, etc., but ultimately the hot dog goes away- as is your money, and it's the same with other sundries, food, and expendables you need.

So, in line with that example, would it be acceptable that you lose an item you've purchased and placed in your inventory, or if you buy a package of like items could you lose one of those, or a few of those, or whatever? Would this work? No. Why? Because there's a massive mis-perception by much of any community for any F2P game you go into, that it's a video game, so everything should be persistent, if you 'earn' it in the game, you get to keep it permanently. This is a viewpoint I sorely disagree with, and that's probably because the past 25 years of my life I've worked, and I've always understood that my electricity, gas, and garbage have to be paid for or there will be no means to continue collecting the fuels needed to power it, the gas transmission lines to send to the boiler downstairs so I can get water heat, and garbage so that it doesn't build up all over the place.

I realize this is, indeed, going to be a computer-based game, and I appreciate that, but the things we buy in this game are not real, they are temporal. What happens if PGI, after a good run, closes this game down, and there are players who've purchased, among their total number, millions of dollars worth of in-game items? All of those items are going to go away, right? Well, now, if you're the person who's spent $45 - 50,000, and you still have a massive amount of in-game items, but suddenly they're all gone, how are you going to feel? Gonna be pretty angry, right and, except for the fact that you've purchased these things legally, and your money is legally in the hands of PGI, you're really angry about that loss, right? Okay, well, why not allow those items to be appropriately used up to offset the cost of 'Mechs in-game if you get yours shot out from under you?

Back to the hot dog... your hot dog is forever persistent, because you paid for it. Imagine what that's going to turn into after so long in your stomach?

Edited by Kay Wolf, 20 November 2011 - 07:52 AM.

[Threat Doc]

I'm wondering if the devs didn't mean that there will be individual stages of warfare... you have your recon 'Mechs go in and do their job, first, with a tonnage limitation of, say, 35 per 'Mech, and then it's time to get targets marked, so you have light up to medium 'Mechs going around with several iterations to mark potential targets, and then round 3 is medium to heavy 'Mechs... see what I'm saying, here? Did the devs mean each 'Mech would have their own penalties and bonuses across their individual and collective weight classes on the same battlefield, or will fighting take place in stages in individual maps and drops?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Seem's unduly complicated, and the implication is that we fight in teams on the same map.

[feor]

I think the best solution to what to do if you lose all your mechs is let you borrow one from the Company Store.

"So you got your carefully tweaked, customized mech shot out from under you & can't salvage it? Well, we still need you in the field, so you can borrow one of these stock mechs from our inventory, for a reasonable percentage of the reward from the mission, plus repair costs, of course."

Lets you continue playing, maybe not in your prefered mech, but you aren't shut out of the game, and you can slowly save up to buying another new mech of your own.

[Melissia]

Anyone ever thought of a simple debt system instead? While you're in debt, you don't get new salvage, you can't customize your 'mech, you can't sell your 'mech, you can't purchase ANYTHING but repairs and ammunition reloads, until you get yourself out of debt.

So you can repair your shattered 'mech, but you'll go in to debt doing so, and you'll be forced to work off that debt before doing anything else.

Edited by Melissia, 20 November 2011 - 01:23 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

Urban Mech and Hornet. BAM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Melissia, on 20 November 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

Anyone ever thought of a simple debt system instead? While you're in debt, you don't get new salvage, you can't customize your 'mech, you can't sell your 'mech, you can't purchase ANYTHING but repairs and ammunition reloads, until you get yourself out of debt.

So you can repair your shattered 'mech, but you'll go in to debt doing so, and you'll be forced to work off that debt before doing anything else.

interesting idea but since the BT universe is gritty and full of shady characters, but wouldnt they simply impound your personal battlemech until you pay up? (might be diffrent for house factions?)

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 20 November 2011 - 02:02 PM.

[Oppi]

J Echo, on 20 November 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

Let's do a little checklist, shall we?

* Mechwarrior 3: mostly realistic physics, believable mech designs, generally down-to-earth for giant robots

* Battletech: unrealistic physics, outlandish mecha designs, flying transformer break-dancing giant robots which resemble giant humans in funny-looking armor

The Mech designs of the video games are taken from the tabletop and novels, so how can that be true ?

Could you name some examples for your so called "unrealistic physics" in Battletech ? Because I think, if you just looked at how jump jets worked in all the former Mech Warrior games, you'd need some huge amount of "breakdancing" in the novels (where jumpjets were hard to handle and you took the risk of falling and breaking an arm or leg with nearly every jump) to get the same lack of realism

Edited by Oppi, 20 November 2011 - 02:27 PM.

[Odin]

Voted for just one Mech, house specific, from assault down, your choice entirely.

As I see it, the hole Battletech - Mechwarrior "business", the core of it , is defined by the lore, fiction.
I feel at home, if the screen play resembles closely, whats written down about this affair.
You are a Mechwarrior if you got just one avatar to tinker with and grand dads trusty old Victor or what ever.
It mait be completely nonsense for you, but that's, what's important for me. The reenacting, to get the feel of the books I loved.

I buy (real cash) a Mech only once. I pay for better weapons and gear, other Mechs. If I had to spend in game C-Bills for repairs I m OK with that. They want to encourage ppl to play this not rob their money or frustrate them. If WoT works like a peepshow I have no problem with that But this is MechwarriorOnline! Let it work like it does in the fiction. C-Bills for repairs or new/better stuff, salvage, contracts!
We 're hired Mercenaries or house dogs so the overall gameplay and metagame should reflect this.

Edited by Odin, 20 November 2011 - 02:28 PM.

[feor]

Quote

Too many to name, but here's two: falls, ballistics

Ok, how exactly are falls unrealistic, you take, IIRC, 1 point of damage for every 5 tons of mech, per level that you fall (and mechs are two levels high so falling over counts as 1 level, level 2 to level 1). Your pilot may take damage from getting jostled around inside his machine. So you break yourself, you break your mech, and then have to stand up again.

I've seen full size excavators fall over sideways. They bring in another big vehicle of some kind, haul the thing upright, and go back to work, and the don't have the kind of multi-multi-resiliency that comes from having a full Myomar musculature weave under their equipment, they have one or two hydraulic piston(s) they have to hope don't break.

And what is uinrealistic about ballistics? The fact that range drops as caliber increases? That, at its core, is a game balancing mechanic, but has some relation to real world physics. Large projectiles require more propellant to travel the same distance. In modern weaponry they increase the total size of the round to accommodate this, in battletech they may be limited in terms of ammo feeds on mechs to smaller rounds, and hence, smaller propellant charges

In fact, I would strongly refute your suggestion of earlier that MW games are more realistic than Battletech or Anime mecha. Why? Because if mechs actually moved like they do in previous mechwarrior games they would never, EVER, become militarily viable combat units, never mind "the kings of the battlefield". They would be demolished with Artillery, taken apart by tanks hull down behind blinds, outmaneuvered by helicopter gunships, and immobilized by the simplest of traps laid out by infantry troops. ("Hey guys, lets dig a pit on half the road and cover it with a fake surface, so when that Victor comes around the corner one of its feet goes in the hole and it can't get out. THen we just run up to it and start planting shaped charges!")

For mechs to have obtained their position as supreme military unit in the battletech/mechwarrior universe they would have to behave less like a walking tank, and more like a vastly out-scaled suit of battle armour, able to dive for cover, sprint through the open, and engage in fisticuffs with your average building. The only reason previous titles have not reflected this has been due to limitations of computer technology, and we probably still won't see it based on those limitations, but they can get a whole heck of alot closer then they have in the past.

[Deliverator]

I think the main reason they haven't reflected the battletech fiction has been mostly due to limitations of input devices rather than computer hardware capacity. I don't know about you, but I would find it pretty difficult to have my neurological signals interpreted by my computer and translated into game commands. We won't be able to have that level of interaction in the game because we can't control every individual joint in a mech with a HOTAS and a TrackIR.

[feor]

Deliverator, on 20 November 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

I think the main reason they haven't reflected the battletech fiction has been mostly due to limitations of input devices rather than computer hardware capacity. I don't know about you, but I would find it pretty difficult to have my neurological signals interpreted by my computer and translated into game commands. We won't be able to have that level of interaction in the game because we can't control every individual joint in a mech with a HOTAS and a TrackIR.

There's actually nothing in terms of mech command that cannot be done with modern technology. Neurohelmets are just glorified bio-feedback rigs, the same tech that came out a few years ago (at least experimentally) that lets you level a plane in a flight simulator (and theoretically in the real world) by "thinking" it level. The rest of the mech is controlled with two joysticks and a set of foot pedals.

[feor]

J Echo, on 20 November 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Excavators aren't 50-foot-high, 75-ton machines with a high CoG. A pilot won't only be "shaken up a bit" from a mech falling over; a five-story fall onto a hard surface is going to be generally fatal, even accounting for any shock absorbers in the cockpit (which I've not heard anything about in the fiction). Additionally, everything else in the mech which isn't able to be made out of unbreakium alloy plates and reallytoughium fibers is going to break. For example, the impact-detonation cannon rounds would all explode if a mech fell over. Boom.

No mech is 50 feet tall, the TALLEST mech in battletech is the Atlas, and it's 12 meters tall, 40 feet (well, 39 & change). the average height for mechs is about 9meters, or 30feet. They also won't be falling directly down. Think about it, if you fall over you bend your knees, stick out your arms, fold at the waist, and don't take that much damage. If you lock your knees, waist, and back and let yourself fall over, you're going to hurt yourself alot more.

Quote

LOL. "If you have to ask ..." Well, for starters, there's no ballistic drop. All ballistic weapons, by definition, have ballistic drop. Most of them don't in BTTTR.

And what exactly is the amount of that ballistic drop? The longest range weapon I know about in the game right now (excepting multi-mapsheet Artillery pieces) is the HVAC/2 with an effective range of 1.05KM. Will there be an appreciable drop of a reasonably large weapon (acs range from 25-203mm) over that distance?
And what makes you think there isn't bullet drop? Even given the loss of technology, "aim it up a few inches" isn't exactly the most complicated targeting adjustment, and gunners have been doing it without actively thinking about it probably since shortly after gunpowder was invented. There's no reason for it to be represented in the tabletop game, and no real reason for it to be mentioned in the novels, so it never gets brought up. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote

This is true of your dancing fairy mecha as well. There is simply no role for giant robots on a real battlefield. A mech sim begins with the acknowledgement that the situation for mechs' existence is improbable to the point of being a virtual impossibility, but then accepting that and moving on to the real work of making the physics of the mechs as realistic as possible. The dancing fairy mecha ignores physics altogether.

Except that the "dancing fairy mecha" can duck behind a building and lean out to keep themselves protected from enemy gunfire, the same way an infantryman would (just needs bigger cover), they can dive for cover when under fire, they can crawl up a steep hill on their hands and knees, they can slog through waist deep swamp. They can do everything and anything an infantryman can do, only bigger, with more firepower behind it. Which gives them a sizable advantage in combat over a more traditional vehicle, and really only leaving them vulnerable to enemy air power.

[Pht]

Odin, on 20 November 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

As I see it, the hole Battletech - Mechwarrior "business", the core of it , is defined by the lore, fiction.

The lore has it's genesis (by two years) and anchor in the pen and paper game end.

[Threat Doc]

Melissia, on 20 November 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

Anyone ever thought of a simple debt system instead? While you're in debt, you don't get new salvage, you can't customize your 'mech, you can't sell your 'mech, you can't purchase ANYTHING but repairs and ammunition reloads, until you get yourself out of debt.

So you can repair your shattered 'mech, but you'll go in to debt doing so, and you'll be forced to work off that debt before doing anything else.

Well, what if salvage were collected and divvied as normal, but then 75% of the salvage you collected -and you would get to keep one choice piece per battlefield salvage lot of 25%- goes to pay your debt for the new 'Mech? Until then, you just have to figure out how to take it easy, to win with the smallest amount of risk to your new 'Mech as possible. This would certainly force individuals to improve their tactics and their abilities on the battlefield so they don't get creamed.

[simon1812]

yeah it seems reasonable enough to start with light mech, may the player be allow to pick their first mech from a reasonable number of models, which mech exactly should be dictated by faction allegiance , at least at first.

Edited by simon1812, 20 November 2011 - 05:00 PM.