421 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 16 August 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

yes, yes it is.
Want to retract your "slander" comment yet?

No, YOU don't know anything, don't place YOUR limitations on me.

So tell me nostradamus, since you know so much about me personally, my professional history, and my life experiences, just what exactly do I know, don't I know, and just exactly what have I and have I not done in my decades on this planet.

Do you understand why I'm calling you ignorant now?

You know NOTHING about me, what I've done, where I've worked, or anything else about me yet YOU are the one making unfounded, unconfirmed, and ignorant libelous statements about me

I can say the same to you. This is not a me and you thread, but I am flattered.

However(wrong placement) This thread was mainly about cost, a lot of peoplehere I doubt know about developing a map and my firsthand experience it limited to what I have done so I don't know about MWO. I will give their 3D artist credit, good looking game on some good graphics. If you do know about making a game that is cool, being a 3D artist I think is the sweetest part of the job but it is besides the point. If you work with software that is cool.

Anyways I do think and agree that they can reduce cost to these maps and they have it mixed up but that a cheaper map does not always mean faster to produce. Unless its the idea of recycling assets which i personally do not want to see.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 16 August 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

I can say the same to you.

No, you can't. I've never, not once, EVER told you ANYTHING even remotely close to "You don't know because you don't have any experience in any of this so your opinion is wrong and/or invalid"

See, I don't make assumptions on YOUR personal knowledge, experience, and personal.professional experience.

[Noesis]

#ohgodabsolutetruthdebateyawnstrawmanmustberightpostingtrollrepetition.com !

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 16 August 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, you can't. I've never, not once, EVER told you ANYTHING even remotely close to "You don't know because you don't have any experience in any of this so your opinion is wrong and/or invalid"

See, I don't make assumptions on YOUR personal knowledge, experience, and personal.professional experience.

I wasnt trying to do anything of that. It's just that you cant really make declarations on their incompetence for something you dont have the experience yourself(and others). I have worked on maps and have had close friends work on maps for various games for 5 years now. Its not an easy process, and it is time consuming. If you are not reusing and making from scratch it takes even longer. For some people to make comments and or opinions in such a manner without really knowing what it takes to develop a map is just astounding and this is not a place for seeking PGI's incompetence or lack of know how. Didnt mean to step on toes.

Noesis, on 16 August 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

#ohgodabsolutetruthdebateyawnstrawmanmustberightpostingtrollrepetition.com !

wow.

Their is a way to minimize cost and sure there is a way to minimize time. DO what Bethesda did with Oblivion and just reuse the same assets for almost everything pertaining to maps and bam. I think the did a random generator for their dungeons and reused the same layout.

However, If we want the big maps, even Lore maps and good assets. it takes time and money(unfortunately). I believe we understand the concept of trade-off. If they speed something up, they slow something else down. That is besides the point.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 16 August 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Allen Ward]

sigh...every thread ends in a personal flame war. where has the art of unbiased discussion gone to?

Back to OP: I love detailed art work and I honor that PGI is aiming high for quality. But I doubt that putting several hundred or thousand dollars into designing a Dump Truck (refering to the Penny Arcade Report) over several days is worthwhile when people are waiting for things like community warfare for months (soon years). I have never noticed this bloody Dump Truck and I don't think it is necessary for the game at this stage (it can be added later).

Getting lost in details and possibilities is a common trap for many projects.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Allen Ward, on 16 August 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

sigh...every thread ends in a personal flame war. where has the art of unbiased discussion gone to?

Back to OP: I love detailed art work and I honor that PGI is aiming high for quality. But I doubt that putting several hundred or thousand dollars into designing a Dump Truck (refering to the Penny Arcade Report) over several days is worthwhile when people are waiting for things like community warfare for months (soon years). I have never noticed this bloody Dump Truck and I don't think it is necessary for the game at this stage (it can be added later).

Getting lost in details and possibilities is a common trap for many projects.

See, they want to make the game for those High graphic nuts, who spend hours noticing every detail.

Yes back to the OP. It is like I said, If we want detailed maps, they are going to cost much more and take longer. They question is do we need every map like that? They did say for some they will reuse assets but they still create a fresh scene.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 16 August 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Aim64C]

Edit:

For ****'s sake... auto-restore deleted quote tags and I'm too lazy to restore them. Or spend the time to re-make my post.

Disregard.

Edited by Aim64C, 16 August 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

I wasnt trying to do anything of that.

really?

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

I guarantee they know more about what they do than you.

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Also besides the cost you don't know anything about real development or making a map for one.

please, keep going, you're just making it easy at this point.

Aim64C, on 16 August 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Edit:

For ****'s sake... auto-restore deleted quote tags and I'm too lazy to restore them. Or spend the time to re-make my post.

Disregard.

I'll do it for you

"You don't know what you're talking about"
Aim64c"I am a professional in the industry"
"You don't count"

Aim64c"This is wrong, there needs to be a change"
"I'm going to ignore you now and attack someone else because I have no factual, reasonable, or otherwise informed and credible response to anything you say now"

sound about right?

[Coolant]

Mektek keep the community alive up till 2011, starting with their 1st Mekpak for MW4: Mercs around 2004, and 2 later releases. Couldn't find when MWLL was released but did see that the beta was released in 2009. I have little love for MWLL because there already was a perfectly good MechWarrior title with excellent mod's already in place, quite frankly. If there wasn't a single mech game out when MWLL was launched I'm sure I would've played it and been grateful. But, I was and am loyal to Mektek, and, again being quite frank, I lost respect for those that jumped ship. The only thing I agree with is the OP's premise of needing new maps. I still have a hard time understanding why it has been 9 months since the last map. There haven't even been any alternates.

[Sandpit]

Coolant, on 16 August 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Mektek keep the community alive up till 2011, starting with their 1st Mekpak for MW4: Mercs around 2004, and 2 later releases. Couldn't find when MWLL was released but did see that the beta was released in 2009. I have little love for MWLL because there already was a perfectly good MechWarrior title with excellent mod's already in place, quite frankly. If there wasn't a single mech game out when MWLL was launched I'm sure I would've played it and been grateful. But, I was and am loyal to Mektek, and, again being quite frank, I lost respect for those that jumped ship. The only thing I agree with is the OP's premise of needing new maps. I still have a hard time understanding why it has been 9 months since the last map. There haven't even been any alternates.

the OP's premise isn't we need new maps. The OP's premise is that it's ludicrous to expect us to believe that it takes $250,000 for each and every map made.

[BLOOD WOLF]

So let me ask you, yo do know anything about developing a map?

Sandpit, on 16 August 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

the OP's premise isn't we need new maps. The OP's premise is that it's ludicrous to expect us to believe that it takes $250,000 for each and every map made.

I doubt the map itself cost 250k, but I did some research and the cost can get pretty big. It depends on what you are doing.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 16 August 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

(I wasnt trying to do anything of that).- NO i wasn't trying, if it happens to be, then it just is.

(Also besides the cost you don't know anything about real development or making a map for one).--that still stands. unless you do surface research how can you know

(I guarantee they know more about what they do than you).--Since you do not know anything about making a map i think that is about correct.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 16 August 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[Allen Ward]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

See, they want to make the game for those High graphic nuts, who spend hours noticing every detail.

Yes back to the OP. It is like I said, If we want detailed maps, they are going to cost much more and take longer. They question is do we need every map like that? They did say for some they will reuse assets but they still create a fresh scene.

Yes, unfortunately I can't pay tribute appropriately as I am a normal user of a day-to-day business notebook and run the game in lowest lowest settings available. I doubt that the potential gaming community for this franchise is running ultra-high gaming devices, some/many will, others won't. Creating games for a tiny fraction of the market seems to be...risky at least.

Anyway, I think it's just the wrong order they do it. And that's why they trip. How many "old" mechs have been updated with corresponding loadout graphics? How many will probably never get done, at the current rate of production? This shows to me that PGI has some processing and planning issues here and there.

I feel being treated badly as a supporting player if my mech (one from the very first hours of this game) is still on the list for redesign, while Dump Trucks are designed into new maps for a lot of money that I have spent. This is a very good example that shows how they lost track.

And I dare say that the quality of the maps is still far from overwhelming. They look good, but they lack soul and options for creativity. Every map boils down to a single tactic because it offers no other solutions. This changes when certain weapon systems get major nerfs only. Just remember how tunnel rush was common months ago. No longer. Players are very good at finding out how a map "works". After they found out, they stick to it. Maps should be designed in ways that allow at least 3 ways how they "work", depending on the players that favor one or the other. This will not work as long as players get thrown together randomly, though. It's related to game modes - the game modes we have simply don't force players to use maps to their advantage. So it's not map design, alone. Having asymetrical game modes would make all available maps much more interesting. This game still is nothing more than a high-graphics robot shooter. No simulation, no strategy, no tactics besides: stick together and focus fire. Regardless of the map. That is where they could invest some brains/money instead of redesigning Dump Trucks.

[Heeden]

Out of interest, is there a link to the statement the 250k figure comes from?

Is it a definite "we've thoroughly checked through all the figures and each map comes with a price tag of 250k", or more of a mid-chat, spit-ball "the maps cost us around 250k a pop"?

[Roland]

Bloodwolf's sole purpose is to rile people up with his pedantic nonsense.
Just put him on ignore and save yourself the trouble.

You know that discussions with him go on for pages and never lead to anything productive.

Libera te tutemet.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I doubt the map itself cost 250k, but I did some research and the cost can get pretty big. It depends on what you are doing.

I'm going to repeat this
again
(which happens a lot on this forum because people don't read)

WE KNOW THAT THE ACTUAL MAP
MAP = THE MAP ITSELF
DOESN'T COST $250,000

THAT'S WHY I HAVE SAID
(see, this goes back to the whole "don't read, have to repeat)
(again)

IF IT IS COSTING PGI $250,000 TO CREATE A SINGLE MAP THEN IT IS EITHER
(now please note, since I don't want to repeat this)
(again)
(for about the 8th time to you in various threads regarding this)

INCOMPETENCE, POOR MANAGEMENT, POOR RESOURCE MANAGEMENT, POOR TIME MANAGEMENT, POOR PROJECT MANAGEMENT, OR A COMBINATION OF ANY LISTED ITEM
(notice how I never said it's because of something in particular because I don't know what's causing that cost, but I do list several things not JUST the word "incompetence" that need to be looked at because)

IT SHOULD NOT COST $250,000 TO PRODUCE A SINGLE MAP AFTER YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR 3 YEARS.

Ok, did I break that down well enough for you?


As for MY personal experience?

I have, with a few amateur friends (under 10 in number so MUCH smaller than PGI), with NO MONEY OR REVENUE, have built an entire game including coding from nearly the ground up. We took Vampire the Masquerade PC game, and made a complete and total ground up build to make it an exact replication of the TT PnP game including (but not limited to)
MAPS
CODING RULES AND RNG'S
CODING AND SCRIPTING NPCs
COMPLETE NEW MODELS FOR THE CHARACTERS
COMPLETELY NEW TEXTURES AND ARTWORK
COMPLETELY NEW AND ORIGINAL MODELS FOR EVERY ASPECTS OF THE GAME

so yes, I have plenty of experience
oh
I've also
Worked with professional coders and game developers
I've also
taken SDK tools and built everything but the actual code for games

Oh
I've also built, coded, and helped design, manage, and otherwise completely built from nearly the ground up the original Mekwars server (you know, Community Warfare/Inner Sphere War) for Megamek.

No, that's not a complete list because I'm not going to sit here and list my entire "resume" just to satisfy YOUR skepticism.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Roland, on 16 August 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Bloodwolf's sole purpose is to rile people up with his pedantic nonsense.
Just put him on ignore and save yourself the trouble.

You know that discussions with him go on for pages and never lead to anything productive.

Libera te tutemet.

And everybody knows that Roland never really has anything constructive to say or puts any real thought in it. Fair to say Quiaff?

[Allen Ward]

I believe that 250.000$ for a new map is a very rough estimate from PGI, but not far from the truth. I also believe that these costs are to high for the results and that PGI should cut on some details to push what is essential for any game, and add more details and nice to haves later. When adding a new game mode or asymterical game modes (where each side has somewhat different goals) is technically not possible or too costly, they did something wrong somewhere. Nobody needs a new 250K map to do the very same stuff on they do on all the other maps. That's a waste of money.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

(I guarantee they know more about what they do than you).--Since you do not know anything about making a map i think that is about correct.

which is why you're just showing your ignorance

You "think" a lot of things.

You know sh*t about me. so please, keep going, please keep telling myself and all the others who DO have experience, that we're wrong. Please tell us that we should just "shut up". YOUR ignorance is astounding sir

[Aim64C]

Sandpit, on 16 August 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

I'll do it for you

"You don't know what you're talking about"
Aim64c"I am a professional in the industry"
"You don't count"

Aim64c"This is wrong, there needs to be a change"
"I'm going to ignore you now and attack someone else because I have no factual, reasonable, or otherwise informed and credible response to anything you say now"

sound about right?

I'd stop short of calling myself a professional in the industry - but I've made more than a few maps for different games (as mod content only).

Basically - the thing I was saying that was different was highlighting the difference between PGI and a 'real' company.

Paul and Russ were both CEOs of shovelware companies (well, JarHead was a spin-off of the other one).

Both of them subscribe to the socialist view of capitalist enterprise - being a business means you abuse and extort people for money.

They are basically here to sell artwork until we stop paying for it. They do not expect us to ever be happy - or expect to ever be able to make us happy by any effort of their own. They are there to build a retirement off of a business before it closes. In their eyes - there is no business-customer relation other than an antagonistic one.

They don't understand the idea of business as a way of life - of producing something that people will return to buy happily. In their eyes - all of that talk is merely a delusion peddled to the underhive to get them to be more complacent with exploitation.

They fully believe this game will eventually stop being profitable and when it becomes unprofitable, they will close the doors and (hopefully) retire. They do not care about company image - to them every company is evil. They do not care about customers - to them all customers are victims. When they close their doors, their distraught employees will be told to **** off and go some place else.

While Paul and Russ may not 'be evil' - they have accepted evil behavior as a means of 'getting ahead' or 'what they deserve.' Rather than review their ideas of what a company is and how it can prosper with a satisfied consumer base - they simply accept that 'to make an omelet, a few eggs must be broken.'

The more I observe Paul and Russ - the more I am pretty sure this is the case. The reason they don't try to create a more successful company is because they believe that companies are a sort of disposable means to an end.