80 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

So let me ask you this -

Are you going to see Cataphract 3Ds with 2xAC10 and 1xPPC, or 2xPPCs and 1xAC10?

Why don't you tell me which AC boat builds load multiple ACs and 1 PPC?

Also please tell me all about the competitive teams dropping PPCs in favor of ERLLs. Or regular LLs for that matter.

PPFLD vs DOT isn't a comparison - it's a 1-sided equation. You can point your lasers at me all you want; while you're staring I'm going to pop you with 20-45 pts in one location (depending on my build) then turn to spread your damage, cool then do it again. You're going to spread 50 or 60pts over my armor, I'm going to blow a single location off of yours.

PPCs have a minimum range and ERPPCs don't because ERPPCs are so hot they're hard to boat. Reduce the heat and that's not the case.

Remove PPCs minimum range and the ERPPC is useless, plus PPCs are a top-tier brawling weapon - which, again, eliminates much of the value of lasers.

This isn't a new equation - we had cooler PPCs, we've had faster PPCs. they always dominated utterly and completely over ballistics or any energy weapon. lasers were scrub tier. Now PPCs are balanced with other weapons and while still viable not flat out superior.

I get the desire to make PPCs superior, I do. It simplifies a lot to have a single weapon in a hardpoint type (energy) that almost every mech carries.

We've done this though and it was terrible.

Maybe the PPCs at the current speed are a problem for some people to use well - that's not a problem with the weapon design though.

Nobody boats AC10s. Some mechs have 2 AC10s because the person using them gets a kick out of it. It's not competitive; not even close, since PPCs do the same thing for less weight. DPS isn't nearly the issue for PPFLD because it's not about total damage done it's about where you put it.

PPCs are balanced now. They're solidly balanced for weight, tonnage, space, damage, projectile speed and heat. It's the first time they've ever been so. If they don't work for you in the builds you like to take then take something else. Some people say gauss chargeup makes them impossible to use - then some people use them to utterly dominate (you'll find most the top performing people in the Heavy and Assault and even some in the Mediums from the contest for example ran gauss) because they've put the time into them.

You'll almost certainly find that most the mediums and just about all the heavy and assaults ran in the contest used either PPCs or ERPPCs to drive kills, damage and wins.

They could have taken lasers but they took PPCs. Maybe they just don't understand the amazing awesome of IS ERLLs and that PPCs are useless now?

Or PPCs are still rock solid awesome and effective now, exactly as they are.

[JohnnyWayne]

Errant Variable, on 19 August 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I really don't mind that PPCs are no longer more or less hitscan within their full-damage range. It's definitely stopped Alpine from being an "unceasing rain of blue death from whoever gets the uphill spawn" sort of event.

What you mean is Clan LRMs. No this changes didn't do **** to them. Only made them more common.

lockwoodx, on 19 August 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

I feel PPCs are perfect now. They require skill to lead your target, and the right amount of heat for a weapon of that range/damage with unlimited ammo.

Well then we should make your LRMs require skill just as much. I can already see you crying.


@MischiefSC: You didn't watch the video, am I right? Do it. Then you will see.

http://www.twitch.tv/mwopro/c/4908290

Match starts at 11.20.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 20 August 2014 - 02:31 AM.

[Lightfoot]

CTF-3D 2xAC10, 2xPPC

These weapons have nearly perfect convergence that you can't break apart by moving laterally since the nerf/buff for a 40 point alpha-strike. Before the PPC was not in synchronicity with the AC10, now it is, or you could run one erppc (950 mps) and 2xAC10 (950 mps) and a bigger engine and all the extras for a very easy 30 point synchronous alpha-strike. And all you will notice is the PPC.

Just pointing out how foolish this nerf/buff was. Nothing compared to the Dire Wolf version either.

Anyway, PPCs, ERPPCs need to be faster and if not then drop the minimum range on the PPC because it is a brawling weapon now. In all the vidoes I have seen of the PPC since the nerf no one is hitting past about 400 meters on moving targets and it is most commonly being used at under 300 meters. So no minimum range or make it a 500 meter weapon again, you can't have it both ways and not be headed for a fluffy-mech arcade game.

Edited by Lightfoot, 20 August 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

So let me ask you this -

Are you going to see Cataphract 3Ds with 2xAC10 and 1xPPC, or 2xPPCs and 1xAC10?

Why don't you tell me which AC boat builds load multiple ACs and 1 PPC?

Also please tell me all about the competitive teams dropping PPCs in favor of ERLLs. Or regular LLs for that matter.

I already linked you a video of SJR vs. HoL where you will some some creative use of ER LLS.

I'm happy to continue the discussion with you, but I already gave you an example of competitive use and you ignored it.

We can be honest, and talk to each other or we can ignore what the other person is saying and talk at each other in a vain effort to simply repeat our points in circles.

I usually like most of your posts, and you seem like a reasonable guy. This isn't a dig at you, sometimes things get missed when posting.

Please watch the vid and come to your own conclusions.

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

PPFLD vs DOT isn't a comparison - it's a 1-sided equation. You can point your lasers at me all you want; while you're staring I'm going to pop you with 20-45 pts in one location

PPFLD vs. DoT is a comparison due to factors you are either not looking at or just don't want to address.

Weight
Heat
Crit Slots
Projectile lead vs. Hitscan
Travel distance vs. instant application



We can both pop up from behind a ridge at 600m.

I can be doing damage to you with an ER LLAS instantly, while your PPC travels towards me.

The further the distance, the more this favors the ER LLAS.

Even if the ER LLAS only gets some damage on target, some damage is better than none.



If you wanted to say that a Gauss FLD is no comparison vs. DoT then I'd be inclined to agree, because the projectile travels so fast - or if we are talking very short ranges where the speed becomes less of a factor.

[LordKnightFandragon]

IS PPCs can lose heat if the Clan one can go to 15dmg.

[MischiefSC]

The problem with trying to talk to each other is that you are giving an anecdotal one-off in a premade team matchup. As someone who gets chewed on by both those teams regularly most nights I can confidently say they rarely run iserlls.

For your logic to work AC10s would have to be worthless - which they are not. Just in a bad space for tonnage vs dps vs crit spaces.

With ppfld I shoot and twist. I dont have to stare dow like lasers. Also while you are staring at me you are more vulnerable to accurate fire from my teammates.

Ppcs are not worse than lasers now - they are just not significantly worse. That you are actually seeing lasers in competitive play isnt bad - its awesome. Before it was no question. Now at least its worth considering.

[Ngamok]

darkkterror, on 19 August 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I admit I wasn't around at the time myself, but I thought people felt that the PPC was garbage back in those days?

It was horrible hit detection that was also part of the problem.

[Quick n Fast]

Sarna Wiki says PPC should have recoil... lets add that b4 we fix speed n heat..

" Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. "

also says

"The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire"

so lets up the range too or nerf ac ranges.. yea.. nerf ac ranges... F that x3 range bull.. x2 for u son!


http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

Edited by Kahnawake MechMaster Prime, 20 August 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Warblood]

Quote

IS PPCs can lose heat if the Clan one can go to 15dmg.

wait, don't clans alrdy do 15? yes... yes they do... http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment
10 PP dam, + 2.5 splash damage per component, up to 2 other components.


Edit:
@ Kahnawake
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
*sips coffee waiting for trolololololol to bite..*
while that statement may be true... the QQ's around here would flood the forums.

Edited by Warblood, 20 August 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I think we can all agree it's time to lower the heat on JJs. EEFF those nerfs.

[Gyrok]

darkkterror, on 19 August 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I admit I wasn't around at the time myself, but I thought people felt that the PPC was garbage back in those days?

That was mostly due to terrible hit registration, lag shields and all kinds of other crazy issues.

Kahnawake MechMaster Prime, on 20 August 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Sarna Wiki says PPC should have recoil... lets add that b4 we fix speed n heat..

" Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. "

also says

"The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire"

so lets up the range too or nerf ac ranges.. yea.. nerf ac ranges... F that x3 range bull.. x2 for u son!


http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

ACs are already x2, not x3 like they used to be...

[cranect]

I personally think they need to go faster. I dont even understand why they were nerfed. Now they are only useful at brawling ranges and they are one of the worst brawling weapons due to the high heat. I still use them on the Awesome even though LL and ML work better, but they just aren't as much fun. Also I can't figure out why every ballistic except for the AC20 are faster than the supposed manmade lightning. Right now you can dodge them in an Atlas around 700 meters. Anything past 700 take pure luck to hit because it takes so long to get there. If the enemy sees you fire you are guaranteed to miss.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

cranect, on 20 August 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

I personally think they need to go faster. I dont even understand why they were nerfed. Now they are only useful at brawling ranges and they are one of the worst brawling weapons due to the high heat. I still use them on the Awesome even though LL and ML work better, but they just aren't as much fun. Also I can't figure out why every ballistic except for the AC20 are faster than the supposed manmade lightning. Right now you can dodge them in an Atlas around 700 meters. Anything past 700 take pure luck to hit because it takes so long to get there. If the enemy sees you fire you are guaranteed to miss.

PPCs can no longer leg my lights at 600+ unless the pilot has really good aim and a proper lead. PGI took the snap shot out of PPCs, thus one more crutch for bad players removed and a step in the right direction. With any luck lurms are next. They could use another swift kick to the nuts in the travel time department.

[Koniving]

Just use the regular PPC, or even better, have BOTH PPCs go at the same speed.

Then just be quiet, because the only intelligent thought I've seen here is remove the speed nerf and that's it.

But, to go along with it, remove the speed nerfs on all ACs as well and convert the IS ACs to burst fire.

AC/2 = 1 shot (Clan is 2 shots)
AC/5 is 2 shots (Clan is 3 shots)
AC/10 is 3 shots (Clan is 4 shots)
AC/20 is 4 shots (Clan is 5 shots).

This means AC/2 is 2 damage, AC/5 is 2.5 shots. Just made the AC/2 somewhat tangible as a useful weapon.

No weird goofball craziness about wanting colder weapons.

There's a reason the medium and small lasers suck, too hot.
There's a reason the large lasers are overpowered to the point that clan ER LLs needed an unnecessary nerf. Too damn cold.

There's a reason PPCs are meta, pinpoint. And that's why they are hot.
(ER LLs of both Clan and IS is supposed to be 12 heat).

Heat is supposed to matter.

Quit looking for easy buttons, it's too goddamn easy-mode as it is. Stop trying to kill an already dying game with stupid wants because your favorite weapon is too hot for you to manage your damn heat when you have 3 times more heat allowed than Mechwarrior 3 and 2.8 times more heat allowed than Mechwarrior 2 and 2 times more heat allowed than Mechwarrior 4 Mercs.

To deal with accuracy issues, instead of reducing speed they should work on a new form of delayed convergence to prevent the instant-kill-snap-360-degree-no-scope-one-shots that we have now.

Edited by Koniving, 20 August 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[MischiefSC]

At 700 m the travel time is about 3/4 of a second. Your atlas would have to accelerate faster than a Locust.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

MischiefSC, on 20 August 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

At 700 m the travel time is about 3/4 of a second. Your atlas would have to accelerate faster than a Locust.

That Atlas shouldn't be out in the open but when he is, has the armor to take it, and can return fire with his own. This game is suppose to be about an exchange of blows... none of this peekaboocrap the tryhards have warped it into.

That's why hybrid FPS/MMOs just don't work. Mechwarrior for better or worse is a boxing match. There's heavyweights, flyweights, etc... heat = exhaustion, everything has a flow. Terrain and indirect fire are suppose to make a minimal difference but they dominate a FPS environment which is what perverts much of this game. The ARMOR is suppose to be your cover, peeled away like the layers of an onion while Exchanging fire. Instead every shot is so precious little thought is given to the pilot's skill or using their own mech's body to WEATHER blows instead of that tree which magically negates everything.

Alright I've said my peace. Time to throw the ribs on the grill.

Edited by lockwoodx, 20 August 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Ph30nix]

actually i rarely use PPCs..... i only have 3-4 mechs that i have PPC's on them my trebbie is using 2 erppc (i rarely pilot this anymore but i used to be a terror with it bouncing all over the map)
my adder prime has 2 erppc(also barely play)
and 2 of my awesome have 2 ppcs each.

if i have time to aim on a target or in a brawl i prefer lasers, I am still perfectly capable of twisting to avoid some damage and if they miss completely then ive avoided all of it.
I put my beams into their face while their weapons are on cooldown then twist.

Not perfect i know but i prefer it and if i happen to miss i have time to adjust and score some damage. Also the heat is so much lower im firing more often so in the end over all damage ends up being higher.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Why don't you tell me which AC boat builds load multiple ACs and 1 PPC?

If i can boat AC's (like my Jm6-S) why would i want a crap PPC on there? Seeing a nerfed Jager (Firebrand) on my team makes me sad.

I've had a PPC K2 since closed beta and PPC's have always been a bad weapon. They just combine easily with AC's which are the OP weapons.

[Ph30nix]

lockwoodx, on 20 August 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

That's why hybrid FPS/MMOs just don't work. Mechwarrior for better or worse is a boxing match. There's heavyweights, flyweights, etc... heat = exhaustion, everything has a flow. Terrain and indirect fire are suppose to make a minimal difference but they dominate a FPS environment which is what perverts much of this game. The ARMOR is suppose to be your cover, peeled away like the layers of an onion while Exchanging fire. Instead every shot is so precious little thought is given to the pilot's skill or using their own mech's body to WEATHER blows instead of that tree which magically negates everything.

Alright I've said my peace. Time to throw the ribs on the grill.

ehhh my disagreement here is that the use of terrain and cover itself is a major skill requirement, your method devolves the game into just who has the most armor........ Don't know if i like that idea.

[Wolfways]

lockwoodx, on 20 August 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

That Atlas shouldn't be out in the open but when he is, has the armor to take it, and can return fire with his own. This game is suppose to be about an exchange of blows... none of this peekaboocrap the tryhards have warped it into.

That's why hybrid FPS/MMOs just don't work. Mechwarrior for better or worse is a boxing match. There's heavyweights, flyweights, etc... heat = exhaustion, everything has a flow. Terrain and indirect fire are suppose to make a minimal difference but they dominate a FPS environment which is what perverts much of this game. The ARMOR is suppose to be your cover, peeled away like the layers of an onion while Exchanging fire. Instead every shot is so precious little thought is given to the pilot's skill or using their own mech's body to WEATHER blows instead of that tree which magically negates everything.

Alright I've said my peace. Time to throw the ribs on the grill.

lol exchange blows...

I think this is what you're looking for.