64 replies to this topic

[Crystalnova]

This is the message to the game designers of MWO (which is a really cool game and I love it, thanks you guys, you're amazing!).

Ok, so a lot of people are whining about pay to win, etc. I'm a developer myself, used to work on Words of Tanks, so.. yeah I don't have these misconceptions (back at Wargaming I dreamed of making "Tanks with lasers in the future" so you see I just LOVED MWO when it came out). However, as a developer and a game designer, I'm just amazed with what's happening in the MWO right now. Yeah, I mean Clan Mechs, and clan weapons. This staff is supposed to go mainstream now, right? In World of Warcraft, there's always more Horde than Alliance. Wait for it. Compared to MWO, that'll be nothing.
IF players will stay.

So my point is. This game is all about fans, and this is so cool. But's let's imagine for a moment that Battletech lore just doesn't exist. It is a game about mechs, and there are two factions. And the balance is what it is right now. Oh-oh. Sounds.. troubling. Image that this game is StarCraft 3. Or Dota 3.

Or Counter-Strike. Terrorists are tougher and have weapons that have more ammo, more range, more damage, but - you know - the bullets have longer flying time and different color, so it's balanced, right?

Wrong. If you're Dota 2 or Starcraft 2, you have championships, you have press looking at you, you don't want bad publicity and more importantly, you want your players having fun (that's what all of this was about, remember?). So if there's an abuse, you have to fix it. If there's a bug, you have to fix it. If there's problems with balance, you have to solve them.

Right now Clans are a problem - and please don't give me that crap about longer firing time and other stats that don't really matter and somehow are supposed to make a difference 'cause this is just not working. If that's is by design - ok - a LOT of Mad Cats are sold, cool (which is AMAZING and you should do everything for your fanbase because in any other FTP game people will tell you to go do staff with yourselves after you show them that 240$ price). But the game needs to survive in a long way. Look at Dota 2 - it doesn't have any game-affecting goods at all and all features are free save for cosmetic. But it has community and that's all it takes for such a success. Look at your community. Only a lazy one haven't started a topic like "Clans are OP", "Clan warrior online" or "Your guys are idiots cause all is balanced and I love my Mad Cat keep your nerfgun away!". Something is wrong here, everyone knows it. And you know it.

What? I know, I know. The LORE. The tabletop! Well, let's be realistic. The LORE sucks. It is cool as a whole, but when it comes to making a balanced game, it is just sooooo bad. A lot of fans are going to be upset if the LORE is not respected. Ok. But if the LORE breaks fundamental principles of game design, if it's bad for the game balance, if it's bad for the community... The decision is clear here.

And I don't care much for IS meks, once I can buy cool heavy clannies for C-Bills I'll do it (and don't look that way at me, I buy staff in FTP, but i do it over time, 10 times for 10 dollars, not a crazy onetime 200$ - because this is how this model was supposed to work to begin with). I'm just concerned if anyone will playing that game at all when 6 months or a year from now I'll feel that impulse "hey! lets shoot some lasers, all systems nominal!"

You have a problem right now and it's baaaad. Fix it. Solve it. Make your players happy.

Any community manager who's going to deliver that message gets my professional respect and love. ) Sorry for my russian english and all that.

Edited by Crystalnova, 21 August 2014 - 03:07 AM.

[El Bandito]

I also agree, as a BT novel and game fan for over a decade.

Want a long lasting MP game that has roughly even population on both side of the factions? Current state of balance is detrimental to that.

[Voidcrafter]

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

~stuff~

The thing I always like to ask the authors of those topics(though 1 post and registered today most likely means you're a woosie who don't wanna exploit his real credentials):
Do you own clan mechs and have you piloted the so feared TBR?
If so - some screenies like a proof would be nice, and then we can start seriously discussing all the sheet you've said.
Cause yea - playing against something you don't know how it works and gettin your back kicked may seems OP.
Until then - for me it's the next "NERF WHAT KILLED ME!" thread.

[Revorn]

Oh i see a Clanboy saying Clans arent Op. 90% win Rate, just saying.

Edited by Revorn, 21 August 2014 - 03:19 AM.

[RedDragon]

What most people forget when they talk about other "balanced" games like StarCraft is that those games are not balanced at all on a unit per unit level. A Spacemarine will win over a Zergling any day. We don't have RTS games with symmetrical units per faction since the days of the first C&C games. Granted, RTS games are something different than FPS and simulations, but the basic concept holds true: You don't need to make every weapon and every unit the same. There are ways to balance games on different levels. In RTS like SC it's through ressources and time and therefore the number of units you can field.

That's why we ask for asymetrical battles in MWO since Clans have been announced.
And there are lots of other ways to balance the game without nerfing the Clans into the ground. It just needs some creativity and the will to take the harder (yet much more rewarding) route. Something PGI sadly has never done and most likely will never do.

[TheFuzzyBunny]

Clans are not OP:













The issue you're probably seeing is really good players in them. Trust me, they're just as good in any mech.

[Alistair Winter]

Interesting perspective, thanks for posting.

Btw, I think you'd get more attention if the name of the thread reflected your background as a game developer who's worked on big games.

[RustyBolts]

QQ nerf clans. Whah! How about nerfing IS lights. They are faster and have more ecm.

[El Bandito]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 21 August 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

Clans are not OP: The issue you're probably seeing is really good players in them. Trust me, they're just as good in any mech.

I do not see any T-Wolf stats in there.

RedDragon, on 21 August 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

What most people forget when they talk about other "balanced" games like StarCraft is that those games are not balanced at all on a unit per unit level. A Spacemarine will win over a Zergling any day. We don't have RTS games with symmetrical units per faction since the days of the first C&C games. Granted, RTS games are something different than FPS and simulations, but the basic concept holds true: You don't need to make every weapon and every unit the same. There are ways to balance games on different levels. In RTS like SC it's through ressources and time and therefore the number of units you can field. That's why we ask for asymetrical battles in MWO since Clans have been announced. And there are lots of other ways to balance the game without nerfing the Clans into the ground. It just needs some creativity and the will to take the harder (yet much more rewarding) route. Something PGI sadly has never done and most likely will never do.

No one asked to nerf the Clans to the ground. Why do people keep getting that impression?

I know asymmetrical equality is possible but so far I have not seen equality. I sure as hell do not want a queue that is filled only with Stormcrows, Timbies and Direwhales after they hit the C-Bill sale.

The new IS Medium is crap compared to the arguably the worst Clan Medium, the Nova. Tech difference plays a big part in there as well as hitboxes.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 August 2014 - 04:15 AM.

[TheFuzzyBunny]

El Bandito, on 21 August 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

I do not see any T-Wolf stats in there.

LOL That's because I don't own any. I'm an assault mech guy, so I ala carted the assaults. That and I'm not made of money, I bought the Masakari, and was given the Daishi as a birthday present.

So in essence, are we saying the Clan mechs as a whole are OP, or is it now just the Timberwolf?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

This is the message to the game designers of MWO (which is a really cool game and I love it, thanks you guys, you're amazing!).

Ok, so a lot of people are whining about pay to win, etc. I'm a developer myself, used to work on Words of Tanks, so.. yeah I don't have these misconceptions (back at Wargaming I dreamed of making "Tanks with lasers in the future" so you see I just LOVED MWO when it came out). However, as a developer and a game designer, I'm just amazed with what's happening in the MWO right now. Yeah, I mean Clan Mechs, and clan weapons. This staff is supposed to go mainstream now, right? In World of Warcraft, there's always more Horde than Alliance. Wait for it. Compared to MWO, that'll be nothing.
IF players will stay.

So my point is. This game is all about fans, and this is so cool. But's let's imagine for a moment that Battletech lore just doesn't exist. It is a game about mechs, and there are two factions. And the balance is what it is right now. Oh-oh. Sounds.. troubling. Image that this game is StarCraft 3. Or Dota 3.

Or Counter-Strike. Terrorists are tougher and have weapons that have more ammo, more range, more damage, but - you know - the bullets have longer flying time and different color, so it's balanced, right?

Wrong. If you're Dota 2 or Starcraft 2, you have championships, you have press looking at you, you don't want bad publicity and more importantly, you want your players having fun (that's what all of this was about, remember?). So if there's an abuse, you have to fix it. If there's a bug, you have to fix it. If there's problems with balance, you have to solve them.

Right now Clans are a problem - and please don't give me that crap about longer firing time and other stats that don't really matter and somehow are supposed to make a difference 'cause this is just not working. If that's is by design - ok - a LOT of Mad Cats are sold, cool (which is AMAZING and you should do everything for your fanbase because in any other FTP game people will tell you to go do staff with yourselves after you show them that 240$ price). But the game needs to survive in a long way. Look at Dota 2 - it doesn't have any game-affecting goods at all and all features are free save for cosmetic. But it has community and that's all it takes for such a success. Look at your community. Only a lazy one haven't started a topic like "Clans are OP", "Clan warrior online" or "Your guys are idiots cause all is balanced and I love my Mad Cat keep your nerfgun away!". Something is wrong here, everyone knows it. And you know it.

What? I know, I know. The LORE. The tabletop! Well, let's be realistic. The LORE sucks. It is cool as a whole, but when it comes to making a balanced game, it is just sooooo bad. A lot of fans are going to be upset if the LORE is not respected. Ok. But if the LORE breaks fundamental principles of game design, if it's bad for the game balance, if it's bad for the community... The decision is clear here.

And I don't care much for IS meks, once I can buy cool heavy clannies for C-Bills I'll do it (and don't look that way at me, I buy staff in FTP, but i do it over time, 10 times for 10 dollars, not a crazy onetime 200$ - because this is how this model was supposed to work to begin with). I'm just concerned if anyone will playing that game at all when 6 months or a year from now I'll feel that impulse "hey! lets shoot some lasers, all systems nominal!"

You have a problem right now and it's baaaad. Fix it. Solve it. Make your players happy.

Any community manager who's going to deliver that message gets my professional respect and love. ) Sorry for my russian english and all that.

While I agree with your perspective, I still don't actually see my Timber Wolf (or clans) as being overpowered. I am being serious as well. When I look at my personal statistics they (TW and Clan mechs) aren't standouts and I have quite a few IS mechs out performing them including a few "Standout" IS mechs that are head and shoulders above both the Clan mechs and most other IS mechs.

Now I can't explain why this is, hell maybe it is a result of the mystical ELO brackets no one really understands but they just aren't all that dominant in the games I find myself playing in.

This is why I adamantly argue that they aren't OPed and don't need significant balancing changes. The truth, period, and I am going to add this one major condition, is that for me and from my perspective, Clans aren't OP.

Now, for someone playing in another ELO bracket, faced with different player skill levels, perhaps they are. For example, I could especially see the Timber Wolf being a dominant mech in low ELO matches because it is easy to build and customize and very hard to screw up building them. Also it has good characteristics across the board. This means that the requirement to reach basic levels of proficiency in using this mech is very low. Basically put a monkey behind the controls of a Timber Wolf and he will still probably be able to do OK with it. That is an advantage in a low skill game.

In any case, the point I am making is that people who are defending the clans aren't necessarily making thing up to "protect" them or whatever. Perhaps like me, they honestly just don't see the same issues as you do or more importantly don't actually experience the same issues.

[Sudden]

well the orginal poster should note, without the lore mwo will lose its player base. almost instantly. all us old timers will leave. and we are the guys paying the bills for this game.I am sure theres lots of younger peeps playing. but in the end I doubt they are the ones spending the big bucks. just my 2 cents. dunno if I am wrong

[arkanis]

El Bandito, on 21 August 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

I do not see any T-Wolf stats in there.




No one asked to nerf the Clans to the ground. Why do people keep getting that impression?

I know asymmetrical equality is possible but so far I have not seen equality. I sure as hell do not want a queue that is filled only with Stormcrows, Timbies and Direwhales after they hit the C-Bill sale.

The new IS Medium is crap compared to the arguably the worst Clan Medium, the Nova. Tech difference plays a big part in there as well as hitboxes.

I agree with you asymemetrical equality is possible and they introduced weapon changes to reflect that, but they fell short (as expected knowing Paul). How is it possible to have clans sharing the regular queue with inner sphere mechs in a random amount for each team?.
There are mech weapons and systems in clan tech that are so unbalanced compared to IS that you are gimping yourself by going IS. The most blatant cases for me are clan XL (no shouldering risk, full weight saving), clan gauss (identical but 3 tons less 1 crit less), clan DHS (identical but 2 crits), and clan medium lasers (quasi IS large lasers for 1 ton). With those things around and no drawback i don't understand why we are sharing queue other than to be farmed.

Sure there's the tentative 12vs10 solution, but elbandito is right, without any restriction, in 3 months the queue will be clantech-only except for the poor guys stripped of cash.

Edited by arkanis, 21 August 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[Mercules]

Revorn, on 21 August 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

Oh i see a Clanboy saying Clans arent Op. 90% win Rate, just saying.

Quote

Description of Circumstantial Ad Hominem

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
Therefore claim X is false.

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on A's circumstances.
Therefore X is false.

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example: "Bill claims that 1+1=2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false."

There are times when it is prudent to suspicious of a person's claims, such as when it is evident that the claims are being biased by the person's interests. For example, if a tobacco company representative claims that tobacco does not cause cancer, it would be prudent to not simply accept the claim. This is because the person has a motivation to make the claim, whether it is true or not. However, the mere fact that the person has a motivation to make the claim does not make it false. For example, suppose a parent tells her son that sticking a fork in a light socket would be dangerous. Simply because she has a motivation to say this obviously does not make her claim false.

Examples of Circumstantial Ad Hominem

"She asserts that we need more military spending, but that is false, since she is only saying it because she is a Republican."

"I think that we should reject what Father Jones has to say about the ethical issues of abortion because he is a Catholic priest. After all, Father Jones is required to hold such views."

"Of course the Senator from Maine opposes a reduction in naval spending. After all, Bath Ironworks, which produces warships, is in Maine."

"Bill claims that tax breaks for corporations increases development. Of course, Bill is the CEO of a corporation."

[Rehooja]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 21 August 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

and was given the Daishi as a birthday present.

Now you got some really good friends! Who would not want a mech for a birthday present

On topic:
It has been said that balancing is on the way, just give it more time. Participate in public tests to have an effect on the outcome.

[Blakkstar]

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

What? I know, I know. The LORE. The tabletop! Well, let's be realistic. The LORE sucks. It is cool as a whole, but when it comes to making a balanced game, it is just sooooo bad. A lot of fans are going to be upset if the LORE is not respected. Ok. But if the LORE breaks fundamental principles of game design, if it's bad for the game balance, if it's bad for the community... The decision is clear here.

Wrong. The design of this game is bad. The LORE is one of the most successful sci-fi franchises in gaming, and the LORE built one of if not the most successful vehicle-sim franchises in PC history. Without the LORE, this game loses its core fanbase and folds overnight because it is substandard in almost every other way.

PGI blundered into the single most, and intentionally, unbalanced period in the Battletech timeline with no idea how to approach it. A bit earlier and it's IS designs slugging it out. A few years later and you have massive jumps in IS tech, and the IS gets a bunch of goodies that the clans don't have access to like C3 computers, light engines, improved gyros, and way more weapons systems.

PGI not understanding the LORE is why this problem exists to begin with. If they had a clear understanding of the LORE and the technology timeline that goes along with it, there would be no reason at all for them to make the silly commitment to a 1-1 time scale...especially with no clear vision for CW.

And amazingly, the LORE can fix all of the balance problems with this game. C3 computers and tweaks to LRMs can do a lot to adjust the meta in giving the IS an advantage in early game and indirect fire, while the Clans have the advantage in direct fire in the later game (after they've been softened up). If that's not enough, take away artillery and airstrikes for the Clans, which follows (wait for it) the LORE.

PGI has every solution at their fingertips, and a heck of a lot of it comes from the game system that's held up for nearly 30 years. I'm not saying translate the TT rules 100% to the game, but the rules and universe canon provide the right design path to clean up every significant problem in MWO. Turning this game into Call of Duty with mech skins will just ensure its demise.

[Tahribator]

You said it yourself, this is a game for Battletech/Mechwarrior fans. It doesn't necessarily need to appeal to new players(at least that's the impression PGI gives) and little work has been done on PGI's part to actually attract completely new players to this game. Proper tutorials, explanations of in-game mechanics and such are only available if you dig into forums or google. As this Destructioid article puts nicely:

Quote

MWO does not give a **** about new players. Not a single one. Zero, zip, don't even ask.

See, they know their community. They know it mainly consists of hardcore MWO/Battletech fans who grew up with that stuff, have a stable income and are willing to pay a lot for their nostalgia to come back alive again. The amount of people who paid 240$ for 8 mighty clan mechs is insane, no other F2P game can even dream of this(Star Citizen leveraged this well too).

This being a community with a strong passion for lore, they're also more tolerant for imbalance when it comes to stuff like Clans and even weapons. Yes, threads like "Clans are OP, please nerf" come up and what does some people say in those threads? "Well, yeah, they're supposed to be OP! They're Clans!". The community wants these mechs to feel like Clan mechs, and that's fine.

I think the problem is that these mechs are not available for everyone at the moment. A Dire Wolf or a Timber Wolf for example has no equivalent on the IS side and this naturally gives the feeling that these mechs are "pay to win", which as an owner of a TBR, I agree with. The biggest mistake PGI did was to allow these mechs to mix in with IS mechs in teams. They wanted to "balance" these mechs with IS stuff but other than the ERLL nerf, they haven't really taken those steps. Still a bunch of Clan weapons are straight upgrades to IS variants and the fact that heavier Clan mechs can boat them easily means the imbalance is modified by a factor.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the issue. I'm sorry if this post comes across as a bit rambly, but then again, so is the OP.

Edited by Tahribator, 21 August 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[FDJustin]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 21 August 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

LOL That's because I don't own any. I'm an assault mech guy, so I ala carted the assaults. That and I'm not made of money, I bought the Masakari, and was given the Daishi as a birthday present.

So in essence, are we saying the Clan mechs as a whole are OP, or is it now just the Timberwolf?

I don't know if he's saying it's the clans or just the TW, but the TW takes advantage of all the clan benefits fully. That makes it more powerful than the other mechs in general, and highlights how powerful clan tech is in this game when not given some counter-balance.
Kitfox pilots yearn for bigger engines. Legions of little blind kits mewling about how they can't compete with IS lights because they only move 100kph.
Nevermind that they outrange, outgun, and out utilize them. With unlocked engines, they'd easily surpass the Cicada, in speed, utility, and firepower... Arguably survivability. (Less internal HP, less armor, but more speed and side-torso death is almost not a problem.)

[Troy Gardenhire]

Blakkstar, on 21 August 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

And amazingly, the LORE can fix all of the balance problems with this game.

This!

If we look at the LORE no CLAN unit would field the same number of mechs as an IS unit. There would be no honor if the CLAN unit would win the fight.
So let's try with unequal number of mechs for IS and CLAN, start with 12 against 10 and if it's not enough take 12 against 9.

Only my 2 cents.

[xhrit]

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

in any other FTP game people will tell you to go do staff with yourselves after you show them that 240$ price).

ORLLY?


Vesta Multi-mission science vessel pack (3 ships) - 5000 zen (50$)




Chimera Heavy Destroyer - Lifetime subscription reward - $299.99