29 replies to this topic

[Mr Pockets]

The game is running smoothly right now, aside from the small series of technical glitches. Frustrating as they are, it happens.But 1 thing still irks me. I get the feeling there's a ton of light haters in charge of developement right now. Let me first explain why.

Lights are a unique case here, they dont focus as much on dealing damage and spreading their own evenly as other mechs do by the book. their defense is in their legs. a light mech on the run is a tricky target. While they often dont pack a punch like their heavier big brothers, they can hit hard in their own little way. Lights focus in turning their foe in circles, and tying them down. A good light pilot will do this with a few mediums coming around the corner to take down the newly secured prey. In this, lights can do amazing things, theyre Tough to hit, theyre supposed to be. For most of them, that's actually their only defense.

So why would I accuse PGI of favoring the hatred of these guys?

First: the proof is in the percentage. between 5%-15% of players use lights. im being generous too, im looking between matches and im yet to see it break 12% on the charts. im just giving you the benefit of the doubt that im no special case here playin my annoying little bug light.

Second: the recent buffs and nerfs ninja targetted the crap out of lights. The changes lately have had a hidden agenda to specifically attack lights harder than any mech.

1st: Missiles.
I'm going to say this here. The forward speed of missiles isn't bad. i wasnt much of a coward (LRM Boat) so im going to keep my toes out of their side. but the case im on here is this. it's not just the forward speed lights are worrying about. missiles targetting grants them an abolsutely ridiculous turning speed. It's no doubt they'll track well, but right now theyre not just tracking. theyre predicting the future. The physics engine must think the missiles have the ability to teleport short distances and read pilot minds.

Light mechs of intense speed like Spiders, Locusts, Commandos, and others that easily break 150 KPH before they get out of bed quite often have no other defense. if they have anything it's an AMS. for the fastest of the lights that travel above 165KPH, an ams is their only gift. but it doesnt make a difference in the end. they still swiftly run out (since our storage space for AMS is heavily limited by the fact we dont have the tonnage to WASTE 5 tons on crappy AMS ammo just to get 2 whole minutes of mostly missile nerfing in.)

Missiles should be meeting their match against a good light pilot. a competant light pilot in a superspeed light should be able to use the old Side Swiping technique to avoid missiles. turning into them and blasting to the side theyre turned against to dodge them. at 170KPH, turning that fast in that short of a time would be impossible for any computer program, let alone the trhusters of a missile.
The thrusters point in 1 direction. theyre turned by wings. this system doesnt bode for instant changes in course. it's impossible.

but Im going to end my discussion on the physics engine PGI made just to break with that and 1 more bitter comment at the end of this.


Right now, the heavy punishment lights face is because they're no long that hard to hit. and missile locks torture them endlessly. and for some lights like the fatty clan mechs, thats fair. but for the locusts, they suffer indefinitely. their AMS is pretty much a joke, they cant even jump, and they have no EMS. they come out to finish a mech, that mech locks them. the missileboat bombs them, and they die before their Cherry red torso target does. it's pathetic. Should mechs like these essentially hide all game and do nothing until they vulture kills? or should they scout? cuz due to how easy it is to destroy them, scouting is less and less a possibility. If this keeps up, lights aren't going to work. it's patches like these recent that ousted the Flea as a viable mech. it wont work simply because it cant dodge everhitting missles. and it wont survive without dodging.



Lastly: my bitter comment i promised you.
Good job PGI. Nerf the PPCs to "Balance" gauss rifles. because electronic particles are totes slower than a hunk of metal. that totally wasnt targetting the lighter mechs able to equip a ppc to snipe, nooooo, it was for balance. so you morons attacked lights. Look where you're nerfing, morons.

And let the return of hate begin. let's see a good argument come back through the rabble, if someone can actually muster one.


i have my doubts, as my points of missile turning speed is essentially rock solid. so I'll get a bit cocky there

[WmLowFlyer]

Medium mechs, the dying breed.


Not nearly enough hardpoints on most

Too large

Lack of mobility they should have

Most can't even do over 105kph

[Mystere]

Mr Pockets, on 22 August 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

First: the proof is in the percentage. between 5%-15% of players use lights. im being generous too, im looking between matches and im yet to see it break 12% on the charts. im just giving you the benefit of the doubt that im no special case here playin my annoying little bug light.

Those percentages you see are the percentages waiting in the queue, not the percentages playing.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Lights can also use speed to get into cover. Whether under something or head towards a tall building to block the incoming fire. Or break line of sight and hope to break the lock. Or head back toward the main line and take advantage of their AMS.


As to missile turning speed, it can't be considered in a vacuum, it has to be considered as part of the total package so as to keep it a viable weapon system. As I said above, there are other defenses.

Also, my ASSAULTS don't carry 5 tons of AMS ammo, so not sure what you are on about with that...maybe learn to avoid being the most obvious target?

[Why Run]

No one cares that your lights are registering more damage than they did 6 months ago which results in you actually dying. While it's still there, the once mythical lag shield is fading. Face it, at 1/3 the weigh of most of the mechs fielded each game,YOU'RE NOT A TANK, you're a support mech.

[Turist0AT]

lights are easy mode the problem is the sweaping nerfs. ppl dont play lights because there are many more of the good and fun mechs in other weight classes. Only few lights are actually good...

Edited by Turist0AT, 22 August 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[Grey Black]

Yes, lights need some love. However, speaking AS a light pilot, I think you're exaggerating.

Missiles can be your doom if you love to stand out in open fields with a giant "HIT ME" dorito painted over your mech. That is very true, but why not use some of your speed to run under an ECM bubble? That will break the lock and bring you back into the safety of your fold.

As to being easy to hit, my question is why you aren't juking/turning/moving like all get out to get out of line of fire? Using terrain and awareness of the terrain is the number one skill every light pilot must achieve, second only to knowing how to GTFO with your leg armor. I will grant you, I do feel they should be slightly more nimble (but not too much, lest we go back to the "RAVEN 3LS ARE OP" days), but it would certainly help beginner light pilots figure out their machine. I would, personally, like to see light turning ability upped ~5% and torso twist speed at about the same just to give me slightly more agility and survivability in the field.

As to the PPC nerf, it was an overall good thing and completely necessary. The PPC was simply too good to let going as it was. Now, we actually have to think about what our armament will be. Perhaps ERLLs? LPLs? 6 MLas? 4 machine guns 1 large laser? Personally, I have found the IS ERLL to be a godsend and a beautiful weapon for the light pilot, packing huge punch over a relatively short burn time. In fact, the PPC nerf wasn't to balance gauss rifles, it was rather to desync the ability to create a huge PPFLD that many mechs were capable of. Now, instead of a light mech getting hit by 3C/ERPPC and 2 Gauss simultaneously, we may get hit with the 2 Gauss, but the PPC volley may miss. As such, I would call the nerf actually a BOON to light mechs rather than a flaw.

Now, as to why we don't see many light mechs in queue? To pilot a light mech takes an IMMENSE amount of skill, more than any Assault, Heavy, or Medium in the game (I would argue the difficulty curve goes Medium < Heavy < Assault < Light), which means less cash flow for piloting such a mech. To incentivize light mechs, PGI has to introduce rewards for light mechs beyond scouting or narcing, as any mech can get those boni. In fact, I have argued before that we need a retrograde scale for mech payment: whereas a Light mech would get paid (numbers for reference only!) 60k on a win, an Assault would only make 30k, excluding any additional boni accrued during a match for kills, assists, spotting, etc. I believe that lights making a larger amount of cbills per match would go a long way towards introducing players to the beauty that is the Ninja... err.... Light Mech.

Tl;dr: The OP is wrong about every point and needs to go sit in a corner and rethink his arguments.

[Wintersdark]

If you're a light pilot getting killed by LRM's, you're absolutely doing it wrong. Cover is good. You have speed, use it to get to cover, break LOS, break locks.

Lights have lots of problems, but missiles aren't one of them.

[Kiiyor]

Things are a little top heavy;

[Carrie Harder]

Mystere, on 22 August 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Those percentages you see are the percentages waiting in the queue, not the percentages playing.

The number waiting in the queue has a relationship with the number in-game. The lower queue % means that they get sucked into matches quicker (spend less time waiting in queue) than the "more popular" choices -- if they're finding matches faster that does in fact mean that there are fewer of them overall, because the MM doesn't just select random weight classes like it used to.

[Mr Pockets]

No light mech in their right mind runs straight into a fray of bullets with a big red sign that says hit me. if thats what youre thinking im doing here, you're wrong. veyr wrong. im under cover as much as i can be, i duck in between whenever i can.

The thing is. cover isnt 100% of the game here. no you cant always use cover. thats what makes it precious. and theres maps where it's scarce.
IN THOSE CASES YOU NEED TO DODGE
the problem is
You Can't.
missile turning is a big hitter. it's stupid fast. beyond what it should be.


No, light mechs shouldnt be rambo. they shouldnt be a godly force.
but they also shouldnt be as pathetic as half their chasis are.
Lasers, well placed cannonfire, and SRM bombing still hurts all the same. but LRMs arent that accurate, even with support. i shouldn't have to **** out a magical barrier to shield me every 2 seconds from a clan mech LRM 10000000000000 becuse they think sittin in back as a no-skill bottom feeding boat. or god forbid for Clan mechs, both a boat and a brawler.

And yes, Medium mechs are also hurting. im not an avid pilot of mediums, so i wont touch it.

[Deathlike]

Normally, I'd rather write stuff about running Lights... because there's just a small minority of crazy pilots that are willing to go the extra mile to help the team.

I'd like to see every pilot that prefers to "hate on Lights" to see what's on the other end, and see how much actual skill is required to drive them.

Making it sound like Lights are "easy mode" is hilarious... that's why often times the queue is brimming with Heavies+Assaults @ 30+% right?

[Mystere]

Carrie Harder, on 22 August 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

The number waiting in the queue has a relationship with the number in-game. The lower queue % means that they get sucked into matches quicker (spend less time waiting in queue) than the "more popular" choices -- if they're finding matches faster that does in fact mean that there are fewer of them overall, because the MM doesn't just select random weight classes like it used to.

Actually, there may or may not be a relationship, depending on the ratio between the queue size and in-game players, and match turnover rates. The queue can be at 10%-10%-10%-70%. But if the 3/3/3/3 system is not being starved, it can be 25%-25%-25%-25% in-game.

Edited by Mystere, 22 August 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 22 August 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Actually, there may or may not be a relationship, depending on the ratio between the queue size and in-game players, and match turnover rates. The queue can be at 10%-10%-10%-70%. But if the 3/3/3/3 system is not being starved, it can be 25%-25%-25%-25% in-game.

For solo, 3/3/3/3 does happen. There's a great chance though that 3/3/3/3 doesn't occur (usually 1 off, usually not favoring Lights).

In the group queue, something like 2/2/4/4 is more likely to occur based on the percentages (<15%, <15%, 30+%, 30+%).

Edited by Deathlike, 22 August 2014 - 05:58 PM.

[Khobai]

well one easy thing they could do to help lights and mediums is significantly reduce the sensor range on heavies and assaults. that would force assaults to rely more on lights and mediums for detection.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 22 August 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

well one easy thing they could do to help lights and mediums is significantly reduce the sensor range on heavies and assaults. that would force assaults to rely more on lights and mediums for detection.

This... Is a surprisingly awesome idea. I mean, very much so.

I can't see it putting more lights in the queue, but it would make lights more valuable.

IMHO, the reason there's few lights is that they're the hardest to pilot effectively, and are killed if looked at askance, and carry the least offensive power.

I honestly can't see people rushing to play lights unless there's some reason to give up durability and firepower, that isn't just making the Heavies and Assaults more dangerous.

Well, in the solo queue at least. Groups are a bit different there.

[Lightfoot]

No, you are right LRMs should have turning problems on Lights and be more powerful with Line of Sight. (by the way, LRMs seem bugged right now, but I have no proof).

And linking PPCs and AC10's by speed is crushing damage and PGI better fix this. What's the point of adding Ghost Heat if you turn around and do this?

[Monkey Lover]

Allow light pilots ts to shift armor another 50% If I could move more of my armor to the legs I would be a happy camper.

[TyphonCh]

Lights are fine. It's the mediums that are hurting. Especially with Clan mediums now in play, any mediums you do see are Clan

[Henree]

Mr Pockets, on 22 August 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

The game is running smoothly right now, aside from the small series of technical glitches. Frustrating as they are, it happens.But 1 thing still irks me. I get the feeling there's a ton of light haters in charge of developement right now. Let me first explain why.

Lights are a unique case here, they dont focus as much on dealing damage and spreading their own evenly as other mechs do by the book. their defense is in their legs. a light mech on the run is a tricky target. While they often dont pack a punch like their heavier big brothers, they can hit hard in their own little way. Lights focus in turning their foe in circles, and tying them down. A good light pilot will do this with a few mediums coming around the corner to take down the newly secured prey. In this, lights can do amazing things, theyre Tough to hit, theyre supposed to be. For most of them, that's actually their only defense.

So why would I accuse PGI of favoring the hatred of these guys?

First: the proof is in the percentage. between 5%-15% of players use lights. im being generous too, im looking between matches and im yet to see it break 12% on the charts. im just giving you the benefit of the doubt that im no special case here playin my annoying little bug light.

Second: the recent buffs and nerfs ninja targetted the crap out of lights. The changes lately have had a hidden agenda to specifically attack lights harder than any mech.

1st: Missiles.
I'm going to say this here. The forward speed of missiles isn't bad. i wasnt much of a coward (LRM Boat) so im going to keep my toes out of their side. but the case im on here is this. it's not just the forward speed lights are worrying about. missiles targetting grants them an abolsutely ridiculous turning speed. It's no doubt they'll track well, but right now theyre not just tracking. theyre predicting the future. The physics engine must think the missiles have the ability to teleport short distances and read pilot minds.

Light mechs of intense speed like Spiders, Locusts, Commandos, and others that easily break 150 KPH before they get out of bed quite often have no other defense. if they have anything it's an AMS. for the fastest of the lights that travel above 165KPH, an ams is their only gift. but it doesnt make a difference in the end. they still swiftly run out (since our storage space for AMS is heavily limited by the fact we dont have the tonnage to WASTE 5 tons on crappy AMS ammo just to get 2 whole minutes of mostly missile nerfing in.)

Missiles should be meeting their match against a good light pilot. a competant light pilot in a superspeed light should be able to use the old Side Swiping technique to avoid missiles. turning into them and blasting to the side theyre turned against to dodge them. at 170KPH, turning that fast in that short of a time would be impossible for any computer program, let alone the trhusters of a missile.
The thrusters point in 1 direction. theyre turned by wings. this system doesnt bode for instant changes in course. it's impossible.

but Im going to end my discussion on the physics engine PGI made just to break with that and 1 more bitter comment at the end of this.


Right now, the heavy punishment lights face is because they're no long that hard to hit. and missile locks torture them endlessly. and for some lights like the fatty clan mechs, thats fair. but for the locusts, they suffer indefinitely. their AMS is pretty much a joke, they cant even jump, and they have no EMS. they come out to finish a mech, that mech locks them. the missileboat bombs them, and they die before their Cherry red torso target does. it's pathetic. Should mechs like these essentially hide all game and do nothing until they vulture kills? or should they scout? cuz due to how easy it is to destroy them, scouting is less and less a possibility. If this keeps up, lights aren't going to work. it's patches like these recent that ousted the Flea as a viable mech. it wont work simply because it cant dodge everhitting missles. and it wont survive without dodging.



Lastly: my bitter comment i promised you.
Good job PGI. Nerf the PPCs to "Balance" gauss rifles. because electronic particles are totes slower than a hunk of metal. that totally wasnt targetting the lighter mechs able to equip a ppc to snipe, nooooo, it was for balance. so you morons attacked lights. Look where you're nerfing, morons.

And let the return of hate begin. let's see a good argument come back through the rabble, if someone can actually muster one.


i have my doubts, as my points of missile turning speed is essentially rock solid. so I'll get a bit cocky there

anyone knows that if you are in a light going that fast that you can turn around and run to wher the missile is coming from to let them overshoot you, right? if you didn't know that then...lol
so 1st missiles...I didn't see anythingexcept that you are unable to avoid missiles in a light.

Edited by Henri Schoots, 22 August 2014 - 07:35 PM.