101 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 August 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

really, so the deluge of "experts" who constantly get on posts like this telling us we are bads, using bad builds and any success is purely anecdotal is totally imaginary, eh? Maybe you want to reread this thread, even?

I guess I just mentally block people who say things that have no valuable thought behind them (unless I feel like making an example).

Let it slide dude, enjoy your build and don't worry about it.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 23 August 2014 - 08:14 PM.

[Sahoj]

Wub wub wub wub wub.
Long time pulse laser user - first time caller.

Nice to see some love for these. I'm happy to use IS MPL's and LPL's as well as Clan MPL's.

The first group I played with would filet us for using MPL's in ye olde beta days. Medium lasers could engage sooner via range and did it cooler - then the Clans came out with a barely-there difference in range...

I'm not good enough to hang with competitive players - so I'll happily use my pulse lasers at will and score regular top three's amidst the derp squads.

[John80sk]

People saying before that pulse lasers were sub-par weren't necessarily wrong. Lot of stuff has changed since then.

On the IS side, by the time a PPC gets to a target a large pulse has delivered most of its damage.

On the clan side the CERLarge now has a ridiculous burn time, and the ERPPC's are difficult to justify heat-performance wise. Additionally, clan ballistics are mostly useless, so the CLPL is really the only viable big gun option.

Round and round the meta goes. Someday they will figure out that giving weapons roles makes more sense than trying to normalize everything.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

So I owe PGI an apology on Clan Pulse Lasers. I ragged all over them seven ways from Sunday, they were too heavy, too little benefit, etc.

Then I dropped with Captain Blanton and some other friends in group queue and watched him wreck face with 7 CMPLs and 2xSRM6s.

I don't mean a little, I mean hardcore flat out wreck FACE with them. As in 'rebar with a hunk of cement on the end getting swung by the Hulk at baby kittens' sort of wrecked face.

So I took my own twist on it and went with 2xCLPL, 4xCMPLs and like 6 or 7 extra DHS.

Hot damn. Seriously, it's 50pts of damage that's not hard to make pinpoint up close and runs terribly cool. I get 3 or 4 alpha strikes and if I have the target in sight for a few seconds (like brawling) I can essentially chain those bad boys up in 3 groups of 2 and just roll pain on someone in short, sharp bursts until I get tired of the scrolling 'component destroyed' message up the left side of my screen.

Clan pluse lasers are the BOMB DIGGITY.

So, eating crow on that one. It does, however, still taste like winning.

Anyone else finding magic in those clan Pulse Lasers?

The CLPLs are making a big comeback ever since the CERLL nerf. Before the nerf there was simply no reason to take them over the CERLL.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 23 August 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

The CLPLs are making a big comeback ever since the CERLL nerf. Before the nerf there was simply no reason to take them over the CERLL.

Very true. For the wrong reasons though. CERLLs need damage and range dialed back and down to 1.5. Pulse then down to 1.0. Then pull 0.3 off every IS pulse laser and suddenly you've got a better field of weapons for everyone.

[FDJustin]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

Very true. For the wrong reasons though. CERLLs need damage and range dialed back and down to 1.5. Pulse then down to 1.0. Then pull 0.3 off every IS pulse laser and suddenly you've got a better field of weapons for everyone.

Yes, please take 0.3 off my SPLs. It'll be fun to have an energy machinegun.

[MechB Kotare]

Decrease the gap between Clan and IS lasers. Problem solved.

[MischiefSC]

FDJustin, on 23 August 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Yes, please take 0.3 off my SPLs. It'll be fun to have an energy machinegun.

You think I'm kidding. Look at IS SPLs. It's pretty much MG range already - trade double the size and having heat generation for similar functionality. Dial damage back a bit (not a ton but a bit) but... isn't that was pulse lasers really should be? Laser MGs?

MechB Kotare, on 23 August 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

Decrease the gap between Clan and IS lasers. Problem solved.

The gap between IS and Clan lasers accounts for a big gap in Clan and IS performance. ACs and missiles have their own balancing factors. There isn't one for lasers and there should be. Just make it closer stats - for the love of all that's holy not another 2.0 burn time concept or ghost heat or some other wonky solution. Just stats. That's it. Simple and concise and we know it works.

[MechB Kotare]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

...Just make it closer stats...

Thats what i meant.

IS ERLL - 9 damage / 8.5 heat / 675m Opt R / 1s beam duration
C ERLL - 10-10.5 damage (nerf) / 9.5-10 heat (nerf) / 775m - 800m (nerf) Opt R / 1.5s beam duration (back from 'sheet' long beam duration to just long duration - Still kinda overnerf comparing to its prenerfed stats, and still more viable and balanced)

Same type of changes to cER Meds

I'd give them only 6damage, and have their range reduced to 350m - 400m, maybe decreasing their beam duration a bit, so they are not as easy to sync with cLPLs.

I'd also decrease beam duration of IS med laser. I dont understand why does it have 1s beam duration, same as IS LL/ERLLs.

i'd also reduce damage of cLPLs from 11.8 to 11 and have their range reduced to 500m

I think heat values of both cERMLs and cLPLs are ok.

In response to original topic btw, i think currently cLPLs are a go-to weapon for all those who liked to use a long beam duration at range cERLL before it got prolonged into ridiculous state. Im pretty sure cLPLs are next on PGI nerf list, along with cERMLs.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 24 August 2014 - 12:00 AM.

[FDJustin]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

You think I'm kidding. Look at IS SPLs. It's pretty much MG range already - trade double the size and having heat generation for similar functionality. Dial damage back a bit (not a ton but a bit) but... isn't that was pulse lasers really should be? Laser MGs?

No, I didn't think you were kidding, although I did think you might have made an oversight at the time. I was actually more serious than not; I like SPLs, and enjoy running with 6 of them on chainfire. That's exactly how many you need to hold down the fire button for a never-ending laser barrage. Not really an effective use of them, but dammit, the laser machinegun effect is fun.
My 6 SPL Firestarter would be an absolute terror feared by all with that .2 beam-time.

In general, pulse lasers are a less efficient weapon. Hotter, heavier, shorter range. But they do hit harder, faster, and they spread damage less. (And amplify the effects of friendly fire, or missing). They also allow you to squirm around more.
These things amplify your mistakes, but they also give your opponent a harder time to react.

Longer burning lasers run cooler, shoot further, and weigh less. Friendly fire is more likely, but has less impact if you don't just drool on the keyboard and let it all soak into your ally. Naturally, if you want to keep all your damage, you have to either time your shots well with your enemy, or squirm around less.
These things are much more efficient, allow you to recover from mistakes easy, but your opponent has more time to 'deal' with the lasers.

I do think normal lasers are better at the end of the day. The ability to fit more 'stuff', including more weapons, is easily worth the reduced damage output. Even so, pulse are damn fine, if you're into an aggressive playstyle and don't mind sacrificing 'stuff' for them.

In games with customizable bits and bobs, I find it best to start on the extreme with your favourite metric, then dial it back bit by bit until it just sits at the edge of your comfort zone. From there, you can take the extra 'points' you have and bump up other things to flesh your build out, and it will be absolutely perfect for your hands.
If people did this they might discover they actually can go sideways into pulse quite happily.

[MischiefSC]

FDJustin, on 24 August 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

No, I didn't think you were kidding, although I did think you might have made an oversight at the time. I was actually more serious than not; I like SPLs, and enjoy running with 6 of them on chainfire. That's exactly how many you need to hold down the fire button for a never-ending laser barrage. Not really an effective use of them, but dammit, the laser machinegun effect is fun.
My 6 SPL Firestarter would be an absolute terror feared by all with that .2 beam-time.

In general, pulse lasers are a less efficient weapon. Hotter, heavier, shorter range. But they do hit harder, faster, and they spread damage less. (And amplify the effects of friendly fire, or missing). They also allow you to squirm around more.
These things amplify your mistakes, but they also give your opponent a harder time to react.

Longer burning lasers run cooler, shoot further, and weigh less. Friendly fire is more likely, but has less impact if you don't just drool on the keyboard and let it all soak into your ally. Naturally, if you want to keep all your damage, you have to either time your shots well with your enemy, or squirm around less.
These things are much more efficient, allow you to recover from mistakes easy, but your opponent has more time to 'deal' with the lasers.

I do think normal lasers are better at the end of the day. The ability to fit more 'stuff', including more weapons, is easily worth the reduced damage output. Even so, pulse are damn fine, if you're into an aggressive playstyle and don't mind sacrificing 'stuff' for them.

In games with customizable bits and bobs, I find it best to start on the extreme with your favourite metric, then dial it back bit by bit until it just sits at the edge of your comfort zone. From there, you can take the extra 'points' you have and bump up other things to flesh your build out, and it will be absolutely perfect for your hands.
If people did this they might discover they actually can go sideways into pulse quite happily.

Pulse need more differentiated space between them and regular lasers. Right now they ain't got it. IS pulse are still just bad. Those I have tried - many times on many builds. A few narrow examples aside they just don't have value vs other weapons and the result is reducing the number of truly viable weapons the game gives you to play with.

It's not that SPLs should be viable on an Atlas at any point. It's that they SHOULD be viable for lights. Right now an Atlas can field any weapon in the game; your Firestarter technically had about 6, of which 3 are viable. That's bad.

[Y E O N N E]

MechB Kotare, on 23 August 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Thats what i meant.

IS ERLL - 9 damage / 8.5 heat / 675m Opt R / 1s beam duration
C ERLL - 10-10.5 damage (nerf) / 9.5-10 heat (nerf) / 775m - 800m (nerf) Opt R / 1.5s beam duration (back from 'sheet' long beam duration to just long duration - Still kinda overnerf comparing to its prenerfed stats, and still more viable and balanced)

Same type of changes to cER Meds

I'd give them only 6damage, and have their range reduced to 350m - 400m, maybe decreasing their beam duration a bit, so they are not as easy to sync with cLPLs.

I'd also decrease beam duration of IS med laser. I dont understand why does it have 1s beam duration, same as IS LL/ERLLs.

i'd also reduce damage of cLPLs from 11.8 to 11 and have their range reduced to 500m

I think heat values of both cERMLs and cLPLs are ok.

In response to original topic btw, i think currently cLPLs are a go-to weapon for all those who liked to use a long beam duration at range cERLL before it got prolonged into ridiculous state. Im pretty sure cLPLs are next on PGI nerf list, along with cERMLs.

It's a bit more complex than that. Unfortunately, the strengths and weaknesses of Clans and Inner Sphere were clearly not strongly defined by PGI and that's what is making this balancing act...tricky. I always thought that Clans ought to have longer range and higher damage output per shot while Inner Sphere should have lower heat and greater damage output per unit of time. The longer range given to Clans needs to be not quite enough that Clans can simply rely on their generally superior speed per weight class to keep Inner Sphere at bay while they flay them from outside their weapons range. That's too easy. Conversely, the Inner Sphere's lower heat needs to be not quite enough to keep those higher DPS weapons running full bore for exceptional periods once the Clans are in range because, again, that would be too easy.

[Aresye]

MechB Kotare, on 23 August 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

Decrease the gap between Clan and IS lasers. Problem solved.

Except for you MechB. You shall have a permanent nerf for ER lasers that only applies to you, and you alone

[Zervziel]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 August 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Most will just keep repeating their broken record opinions. Smurfywarriors.. But A+ for effort.

Do I need to call Gargamel?

[FDJustin]

MischiefSC, on 24 August 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

Pulse need more differentiated space between them and regular lasers. Right now they ain't got it. IS pulse are still just bad. Those I have tried - many times on many builds. A few narrow examples aside they just don't have value vs other weapons and the result is reducing the number of truly viable weapons the game gives you to play with.

It's not that SPLs should be viable on an Atlas at any point. It's that they SHOULD be viable for lights. Right now an Atlas can field any weapon in the game; your Firestarter technically had about 6, of which 3 are viable. That's bad.

TL;DR: SPL's work for me, because I'm willing to accept the penalties and happen to be aggressive enough to use them.


In general, I think you're right. Right now I've only got a decent amount of experience with light mechs, and mostly focused on firestarters. I find the SPL to be a viable alternative to MLs if you're willing to stay that close, and SL's despite being a very small damage bonus for the weight and heat addition. (+100% weight, +20% heat, +13.4% damage, -34% burn time.)
A very heavy tradeoff for a potential 24% increase in dps, and tighter spread indeed.

Since I like to be an in-fighter, I need a certain level of performance out of the mech. An elited FS with a 270 engine performs about right for my needs. Might be able to drop it to a 265, or 260. Have tried 250, and it's just on the edge of 'not quite there'.

I find 6 SPLs the right number based on how they currently perform, within my weight class. 5 doesn't quite hit hard enough. 7 feels like wasted space. 8 hit's very hard, but it burns too hot for a prolonged engagement. With 100 meters range, it's best to stay engaged if possible, unless you have a very good escape vector, as the damage you take upon retreat is far, far too great to make the initial engagement worth it. It's not a hit and run weapon.

So... Given that, there are three mech variants that fit this criteria.
FS9-K: I have mixed feelings about using STD engines on these. Most people just aim for your legs anyway. But I do run into people that go for ST's often enough to shy away from the upgrade. If the engine can be dropped to 265 and still turn well enough, adding a JJ makes a world of difference.

CDA-2A: I see these die often to XL blowouts, so again, I feel shy about the idea of putting one on there. The 5% turning quirk and larger torso twist quirk means this thing can probably get away with an engine this size. Probably the best if you prefer torso mounted weapons.

JR7-F: The best of the three, I'm sure most people would say. The XL friendly design means you don't have to sacrifice a damn thing. High mounted arms are nice, and although you lose horizontal play, you still have vertical.

[Satan n stuff]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

So I owe PGI an apology on Clan Pulse Lasers. I ragged all over them seven ways from Sunday, they were too heavy, too little benefit, etc.

Then I dropped with Captain Blanton and some other friends in group queue and watched him wreck face with 7 CMPLs and 2xSRM6s.

I don't mean a little, I mean hardcore flat out wreck FACE with them. As in 'rebar with a hunk of cement on the end getting swung by the Hulk at baby kittens' sort of wrecked face.

So I took my own twist on it and went with 2xCLPL, 4xCMPLs and like 6 or 7 extra DHS.

Hot damn. Seriously, it's 50pts of damage that's not hard to make pinpoint up close and runs terribly cool. I get 3 or 4 alpha strikes and if I have the target in sight for a few seconds (like brawling) I can essentially chain those bad boys up in 3 groups of 2 and just roll pain on someone in short, sharp bursts until I get tired of the scrolling 'component destroyed' message up the left side of my screen.

Clan pluse lasers are the BOMB DIGGITY.

So, eating crow on that one. It does, however, still taste like winning.

Anyone else finding magic in those clan Pulse Lasers?

I've found the clan medium pulse lasers to be a bit of a joke, only useful on builds that already have range and would be undertonned with clan ER medium lasers. Clan large pulse lasers are my default replacement for the now rather useless clan ER large lasers.
I'm not even going to touch the clan small pulse lasers as they are inferior to both the clan ER medium laser and the clan ER small laser, so there's no real advantage there. Maybe if we had faster clan lights it might be useful because of the shorter burn time but we don't so it isn't.

[Creovex]

Pulse Lasers.... rock on small mechs. Try these out....
- 2x Large Pulse on the Kitfox
- 1x Lrg Pulse on the Spider 5V
- etc....

Overall I find that the bigger the mech, the crappier the pulse will work for you.

Edited by Creovex, 24 August 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[Bront]

Crunk Prime, on 23 August 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I just laugh whenever I run into a mech with pulse lasers because I know hes going to be running hotter and doing less damage to other people because he'll be running hotter and have less weaponry because of all the extra tonnage sucked up by pulse lasers, as well as have shorter effective range than everyone using regular or ER lasers.

For IS, Pulse Lasers run hotter but have a higher DPS at a shorter range. They have their uses, but are very specialized in MWO (the 3 MPL Spider D, SPLs on some mechs, LPLs for brawling mechs)

For Clans, Pulse lasers run cooler and have a higher DPS at a shorter range. They're more general use, and the tonnage restrictions effect them less due to having more space in general in the mechs. (Edit: This is true for LPLs, MPLs and SPLs have sightly higher heat, my bad)

Folks assume the Clan pulses work the same way IS pulses do, but that's not the case, even in canon.

Edited by Bront, 24 August 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Violent Nick]

Crunk Prime, on 23 August 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Pulse lasers are always a waste of tonnage.

Always.

Use the tonnage you save with regular lasers to get more heatsinks/ammo/armor and learn how to properly aim so you can keep lasers on targets.

I used to think this. MischiefSC used to think this. Then we saw the light and knew the truth..

Could provide several anecdotes to prove my point but am using mobile at work atm.. Against the enemy who is smart, covers himself

Damn phone..

Pulse lasers are superior.

[Y E O N N E]

Bront, on 24 August 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

For IS, Pulse Lasers run hotter but have a higher DPS at a shorter range. They have their uses, but are very specialized in MWO (the 3 MPL Spider D, SPLs on some mechs, LPLs for brawling mechs)

For Clans, Pulse lasers run cooler and have a higher DPS at a shorter range. They're more general use, and the tonnage restrictions effect them less due to having more space in general in the mechs. (Edit: This is true for LPLs, MPLs and SPLs have sightly higher heat, my bad)

Folks assume the Clan pulses work the same way IS pulses do, but that's not the case, even in canon.

Also, people keep bringing up range deficiencies. Clan pulse lasers still out-range standard Inner Sphere lasers. The only reason not to take a Clan pulse is weight, because they are simply better in every other way.