946 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

So are you saying that individual players playing lone wolf will get to hold territory and have their own private dropships? Or are those... only for groups?

have no idea, I told you exactly what Russ has stated. For you, or anyone else for that matter, to state they know anything beyond what he and a few other devs have said over the past 2 years and, with all of the islands and position changes floating around here that gets very muddled and confusing, is just assumptions you/they are making based on the piecemeal information released at the launch video last year, updates in various vlogs blogs and any other og you can think of, and twitter.

TL;DR
nobody can answer those questions but PGI because nobody knows. We can make guesses based on what little and, often times, confusing information they have given us but they're just that, guesses

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

One last thing before I get back to this really painful challenge. I've been asking in my past 10-15 matches if people have been sync dropping and people have been decent enough to admit to it (and even mention which channel in comstar they were operating out of). Obudalla had a game where he recorded people admitting to sync dropping. I'm just one person, and I have no reason to deceive. If people are admitting in open group they are synching, it's happening.

Please stop arguing it's okay. Honorably, it's not. There's a group queue, private matches, a million options for people to play with each other. Shoot, even just chatting on coms while solo dropping is an option (if it's really about chatting and spending time with each other vs pressing an advantage). If there's no law against it, the heart of the competition is kind of the reference so yes... there's nothing in the rule books for it (AFAIU) but when it comes to the heart, being honorable, or being something that new users have to deal with (and which can potentially drive users away) then it's not something that should be justified. Admitted to, sure... but not justified. Do it to do it, don't make excuses.

show me where I argued for it being ok?
smh

I've merely pointed out that it isn't "cheating" because there's no rule against it.

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

I can't admit to being wrong.

yea, smug

it has nothing to do with the fact that you were simply wrong and made a completely false statement of it not being built into the game. gpclose sir

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

you do play this game right?
you might want to know what you're talking about before you start with the name calling


see above

And... how well does it work? Everyone uses it? Don't be disingenuous Sandpit. There's not a functioning in game VOIP, that's why people use TS.

Daisu sorta hit on it. I'd still say that with the queue split it's against ToS but he really sort of got to the crux -

It's cheap and feeble and a way to try and get some kind of advantage. It used to feel like an advantage, playing in a group. Now it's not. People didn't group to play in a group - they grouped to win with their friends. They wanted it as an advantage. Now there's a group queue and.... well, casual groups don't want to play there. They don't want a challenge, they want an advantage. So they sync.

Is what it is. I did ask PGI for clarification on it; what's the purpose of the queues, if you're allowed to sync to get group dynamic advantages in the solo queue all you've done is set the bar a bit higher for getting that same 'running 4mans in pug queue' advantage that used to exist.

There's a group queue now. Go play in group queue when you want to group. I know I do and I enjoy the hell out of it. Trying to sync in the solo queue though... at best it's feeble. At worst it's breaking CoC.

Hopefully we'll get a response from PGI on Monday. If it's legit then... well, why play group queue at all? Just sync in the pug queue. Far, far less competitive, you get the benefits of dropping group in the pug queue without even having to worry about another group on the other team - you're probably going to be the only show in town so to speak. Like the old days, just not as reliable, but the advantage is available if you work a bit for it.

Which would be horrible and pretty much destroy the whole purpose of having a solo queue at all.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

One last thing before I get back to this really painful challenge. I've been asking in my past 10-15 matches if people have been sync dropping and people have been decent enough to admit to it (and even mention which channel in comstar they were operating out of). Obudalla had a game where he recorded people admitting to sync dropping. I'm just one person, and I have no reason to deceive. If people are admitting in open group they are synching, it's happening.

Please stop arguing it's okay. Honorably, it's not. There's a group queue, private matches, a million options for people to play with each other. Shoot, even just chatting on coms while solo dropping is an option (if it's really about chatting and spending time with each other vs pressing an advantage). If there's no law against it, the heart of the competition is kind of the reference so yes... there's nothing in the rule books for it (AFAIU) but when it comes to the heart, being honorable, or being something that new users have to deal with (and which can potentially drive users away) then it's not something that should be justified. Admitted to, sure... but not justified. Do it to do it, don't make excuses.

I think that is the end of this. Since the enabling of bigger group sizes, and various ways to play as a group, sync dropping is really unnecessary. Unless your specifically doing it to gain an advantage. People in the Solo Que as of now who are doing this are only doing so because it does grant an advantage, otherwise they would be in the group Que. Why is this going on so long.

Technically it is cheating in a sense. "Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation". Anybody who is sync dropping is gaming the system therefore, well you know the rest. Anybody defending this is out of their mind.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 August 2014 - 11:23 PM.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Just for fun I clicked the button, launched the game and you know what happened... wait for it... wait a little longer...

That's right, nothing.

I looked all over the front of the front end, all around the various options... this that and another and you know what I found? ... wait for it... wait a little longer...

That's right, nothing.

Now Sand, this isn't to get into a pissing match. If something popped up and allowed me to get in on coms with my fellow teammates in an easier and less compromising way than TS/Mumble or whatever (non integrated solutions) then I'd admit that I was wrong. Give it a whirl. I know someone in DS who was dedicated in getting C3 to work as an option (and tried to get me to do it as well). It isn't a part of the game currently. It's a button on a screen. Cheers to that.

[Kjudoon]

Aresye, on 23 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Yup. You SHALL use only the in-game text chat to communicate the exact same things you would say verbally.

No you won't. In Derptown that's against the Rambo code. You cannot teamwork... it is unfair and OP.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

And... how well does it work? Everyone uses it? Don't be disingenuous Sandpit. There's not a functioning in game VOIP, that's why people use TS.

No, saying that TS is an exploit when PGI has clearly built in it's own unpopular voip option is disingenuous. Just because it sucked doesn't mean it isn't there. 3/3/3/3 sucks, that doesn't mean it's not in the game now does it?
Elo is hardly what most would call "functional", doesn't mean it's not built in and utilized by the game right?

What I said was FAR from disingenuous. Just because their "vision" regarding voip in the game is cumbersome, slightly broken, not intuitive to use, wait....
are we talking abotu C3 or UI2.0 mech lab?

starting to see the similarities? Just because nobody liked and used C3, favoring much easier to use programs like TS, does NOT mean PGI did not build and implement a voip feature into MWO. To represent that in any other way is disingenuous.

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Just for fun I clicked the button, launched the game and you know what happened... wait for it... wait a little longer...

That's right, nothing.

I looked all over the front of the front end, all around the various options... this that and another and you know what I found? ... wait for it... wait a little longer...

That's right, nothing.

Now Sand, this isn't to get into a pissing match. If something popped up and allowed me to get in on coms with my fellow teammates in an easier and less compromising way than TS/Mumble or whatever (non integrated solutions) then I'd admit that I was wrong. Give it a whirl. I know someone in DS who was dedicated in getting C3 to work as an option (and tried to get me to do it as well). It isn't a part of the game currently. It's a button on a screen. Cheers to that.

see above

Edited by Sandpit, 23 August 2014 - 11:31 PM.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

have no idea, I told you exactly what Russ has stated. For you, or anyone else for that matter, to state they know anything beyond what he and a few other devs have said over the past 2 years and, with all of the islands and position changes floating around here that gets very muddled and confusing, is just assumptions you/they are making based on the piecemeal information released at the launch video last year, updates in various vlogs blogs and any other og you can think of, and twitter.

TL;DR
nobody can answer those questions but PGI because nobody knows. We can make guesses based on what little and, often times, confusing information they have given us but they're just that, guesses


show me where I argued for it being ok?
smh

I've merely pointed out that it isn't "cheating" because there's no rule against it.


yea, smug

it has nothing to do with the fact that you were simply wrong and made a completely false statement of it not being built into the game. gpclose sir

SANDPIT I WASN'T SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO YOU ABOUT ARGUING THAT SYNC DROPPING AS BEING OKAY. (caps just for emphasis.)

It was a general statement overall to the conversations being had here. Go ahead and shake your head, but if there's anything to shake your head about it's taking a general statement and applying it to yourself.

Also, completely chopping away at what I said to quote a line out of context to make some point is befitting a teenager, not an adult having a conversation. Perhaps you're taking these comments to heart... Sandpit, these words ultimately don't matter. In fact, here you go.

My exact statement was incorrect. Literally C3 is listed as a function of the game. The heart of my comment was that C3, as it stands, is not fully integrated into the MWO experience. The option listed provides no immediate function unless used with an outside program. That information is not immediately listed which makes it difficult for the casual up to experienced user to use C3 in any meaningful and reasonable way.

There, a full clarification though I imagine you'll cut some quote out so that you can SMH, while ggclose sir.

These past few posts of yours are the embodiment of the forums and a large reason why I rarely post, try to stay away from the forums, and when I find myself rooting around for more than just information tend to get sick to my stomach. There is so much more to life than this.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

You are saying if people consciously try to drop into the same game in a queue that's built for solo players only that it isn't a significant advantage (relatively) than those who have not done so?

As previously pointed out... the SOLO queue does not mean INDIVIDUAL play. It means RANDOM group of individuals... aka the Pick Up Group. Are you saying that anyone who knows another person in their unit and desires to play with them and talk with them while playing should be banned even if it happens on accident or deliberate? How are you going to police this? How are you going to enforce this?

As Andrew Jackson once said about the supreme court telling him he couldn't do something with his executive power "You've made your opinion known, now let's see them enforce it."

The point is you can't, and it's not wrong to do this.

Quote

If it happens accidentally, that's life, though for those who are trying to make it happen? I don't get why people are trying to justify sync dropping.

Because it's a better way to play the game. That's why. PUGging sucks so hard it has a Doppler effect.

Quote

I don't agree with it but it doesn't mean my way is so sanctified and righteous.

And the solo queue isn't sacred or holy ground for only anti-group players.

Quote

People should own up, say they sync drop because they want to press an advantage and stop trying to justify their actions. Be real and accept who you are and how you play. You're all filthy freebirths anyway.

Has little to do with 'pressing an advantage' when half your 'advantage' is now on the other team trying to kill you with just as much gusto. And really... you have to be that childish?

Quote

Sand, please stop trolling. C3 isn't built into the game. There is no ingame VOIP option at the moment.

He's not trolling and I guess you'll be having VOIP banned from the solo queue. At least that's what you're implying.

I know this much, I will mute it, sync drop and use a safe profanity free teamspeak server like we have on the Seraphim. It's bad enough in the chat scroll. I won't allow that in my house. And if that makes me somehow some ebil sync dropper while you'll be doing the exact same thing when VOIP comes out... I think that dose of hypocrisy will innoculate me from feeling any sort of guilt.

Again... Solo = Pick Up Group, not solo play.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

No, saying that TS is an exploit when PGI has clearly built in it's own unpopular voip option is disingenuous. Just because it sucked doesn't mean it isn't there. 3/3/3/3 sucks, that doesn't mean it's not in the game now does it?
Elo is hardly what most would call "functional", doesn't mean it's not built in and utilized by the game right?

What I said was FAR from disingenuous. Just because their "vision" regarding voip in the game is cumbersome, slightly broken, not intuitive to use, wait....
are we talking abotu C3 or UI2.0 mech lab?

starting to see the similarities? Just because nobody liked and used C3, favoring much easier to use programs like TS, does NOT mean PGI did not build and implement a voip feature into MWO. To represent that in any other way is disingenuous.


see above

...

Yes, you're just pushing for a reaction regardless of the intent and heart of what's being said to you. "Trolling". Good work Sandpit, in the annuls of existence this is what really is going to matter in your life. Keep it up.

[Sandpit]

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

My exact statement was incorrect. Literally C3 is listed as a function of the game. The heart of my comment was

no, you jumped into the middle of mischief and I having a convo. Mischief had called using TS in the solo queue an exploit and I stated how could using TS in the solo queue an exploit when PGI built directly into MWO the exact same mechanic. To which you both replied that PGI had not, in fact, built C3 directly into the game. The fact that you are the only resorting to any sort of name calling or insinuating that anyone's mental capacity is that of a scatter brained teenager speaks much more to your character than mine. There were zero personal attacks going on between myself and mischief and mystere even though we were disagreeing.
Then you jumped into the conversation and that aspect changed.
wonder why that is.....

Daisu Saikoro, on 23 August 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

...

Yes, you're just pushing for a reaction regardless of the intent and heart of what's being said to you. "Trolling". Good work Sandpit, in the annuls of existence this is what really is going to matter in your life. Keep it up.

case in point

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Kjudoon

2 people that want to play together with consistency = group up.

If two people pugging accidentally find themselves, randomly, in a group and get together on coms ... it happens. Such is life. Two people trying to do it consistently when they can group up and play in the group queue?

The opposing team has no clue who is and isn't grouped up.

Freebirth comment = Joke. If you believe I'm an actual pilot built out of a eugenics program, I got some things I'd like to sell you...

I'm not implying anything. I wish there were a VOIP option for the solo queue.

I think it's really telling how hard people are trying to avoid the option PGI has given us. Yes the group queue is potentially harder as, potentially, there are more people working together for a common goal (though it is hard when there's no interaction between groups on the grouped queue (making a real VOIP option desired).

Btw, quoting Andrew Jackson is a bit ... don't know the word to use that wouldn't be considered insulting... when part of his platform was genocide against the indigenous people of the Americas. Part of the overall reference you're referring to is manifest destiny and how he felt, as a white man, that it was his right (and Gods will) to achieve goals against the lives and rights of others.

Edited by Daisu Saikoro, 23 August 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

Before I say my peace, let me start by saying... this literally wouldn't be happening had PGI made the challenge for groups and NOT JUST SOLO. That is the crux of the problem and the fault lies with PGI and NOONE ELSE.

Let's not get into the semantics with the rules and whatnot. It's rather irrelevant for the purposes of the discussion only because even PGI doesn't enforce those rules correctly or properly often times, so it's always a random debate point that isn't worth talking about.

The question is simply.. is it that much of an influence?

Consider the solo queue in its entirety. Is there quality solo play in the queue? Sure. How often does it happen? Rarely. Often times the solo queue is populated in a very odd fashion, with its quality dictated by a PGI-solo event that occurs. Even then, the quality of play is never what it should be under normal circumstances... practicing "milking the system" for what it is worth like means to an end. You will never find a consistent level of play in that queue... let alone high quality of play or players (sorry mudhut, you're not the PUG Lord you think you are).

There's really no real reason to sync drop... and even when you do it, "success" often times pits those sync droppers against each other, which does them no good since the general preference is to be on the same team.

The level of play that a 2 or even 3 man has to deal with is pretty significant in the group queue. Failure to follow standard procedure... whether it is a "NASCAR Race" or going into the middle of Mordor has to be built in and ingrained if you're serious about getting better. The thing is that often times those small groups like to screw around and do their own things... and generally comes as a detriment to the team where their presence or lack thereof can dictate results before shots are fired. So, it does have a "value" to those that are in smaller teams, but are casual. That's why I've advocated for small premades as a 3rd type of queue... especially if their average Elo is significantly lower than the norm (like a group of newbies for instance).

Anyways, it boils down to this:
Are you really worried that a solo drop has people "successfully" sync dropped on the same team (usually being like 2 or 3 of many that made it in the same game)? Will you suddenly/magically play worse?

I know there is a legit issue with this, and while it is probably unfair and unbalanced in a sense... do you have the intestinal fortitude to play through those odds (however small this type of event occurs)? Remember that this queue itself generates MANY levels of skills.. usually far LOWER than those that regularly group up. The Solo Queue is literally its own wild card.. you will still roflstomp... you will be roflstomped... but you'll have a far more share of head scratchings while a fair portion of the players do their own things and cannot be reigned in. It is the nature of the beast. Having multiple players sync dropping is nowhere near the same level as a quality Lords or other competitive premade group. At least when I see Lords, I know the match is ggclose whenever that happens (whether they are on my side or on the opposing force). It simply doesn't happen like that in the solo queue and to proclaim it is anything like that (in the way that mudhut is suggesting) is great fiction.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 August 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

no, you jumped into the middle of mischief and I having a convo. Mischief had called using TS in the solo queue an exploit and I stated how could using TS in the solo queue an exploit when PGI built directly into MWO the exact same mechanic. To which you both replied that PGI had not, in fact, built C3 directly into the game. The fact that you are the only resorting to any sort of name calling or insinuating that anyone's mental capacity is that of a scatter brained teenager speaks much more to your character than mine. There were zero personal attacks going on between myself and mischief and mystere even though we were disagreeing.
Then you jumped into the conversation and that aspect changed.
wonder why that is.....


case in point

You're right, Sandpit. I apologize.

Cutting away my statement, quoting a line out of context, and then making a comment (ggclose ?) while "SMH" isn't something to be referred to as something more likely of what a teenager would do.

I apologize and take back my statements. Your commentary is appropriate and correct for people having a conversation.

In the future I will refrain from making any comments to you and again, I just want to say I apologize.

Good luck with every and all your endeavors.

(as an aside, I still stand by the rest of the statements I've made. I don't necessary think that makes me right or wrong, as I've said previously... I just have a different way of playing games and living life.)

Edited by Daisu Saikoro, 23 August 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

2 people that want to play together with consistency = group up.

Why should we have to when we can sync drop. You realize if the player base was larger, this wouldn't be an issue because the chance of it happening would drop massively. But when only a few thousand players are on at any one time, it gets pretty easy. This is a problem that has existed since closed beta and gotten worse with broken PGI promises. Grow the fan base, sync drops will vanish because they will be impossible.

Next, a group of 2 in the group queue suddenly becomes filler for a 10man who will leave them out of any sort of battle plan and generally get killed. Or they're the last survivors because the sucky 10 man died quickly against a superior 8-12man group. Elo mismatches are 500% larger currently in the group queue because good players can hide their elo inside of a group of bad players too artificially depressing the numbers to get into matches they should never play. Not to mention, this is the same complaint the rambos complain about... elo mismatches caused by groups. Yes, small groups can hide bad elo matches. Big groups more so. At least I am honest about this, and a sync drop when successful CANNOT hide elo mismatches. Only provide VOIP. JonnyNoob cannot depress the elo of Joeleet. This is not unfair. This is not cheating. This is just the way the game works right now.

If you want to stop this, the solution is simple but hard to implement because it's all on PGI... so start complaining there and get ready to be told they have bigger fish to fry than this QQfest.

1. Increase the player base. What does this require? PGI to deliver on their long missed promises which might, MIGHT happen by the end of the year.

2. Implement VOIP... Invalidates the whole complaint about Sync Drops because anyone who wants to work together can. Now it's up to the QQRambos to cowboy up and learn to play nice with others for the first time. Most people sick of the cussfest that will be VOIP will continue to syncdrop and use their own services they prefer. I don't need to hear F-bombs dropped 5000 times a match by a 13 year old who just learned how to swear. Go see "The Oatmeal" comic about what it is to be an adult playing online games.

3. Incentiveize group play elsewhere by creating a solo/lance queue. Problem, too small a player base. It's bad enough currently with the size of the two queues. If there was a place for small groups again instead of the hyper competative group queue where you don't have 10-20 spammed arty/air a match with constantly movie meta mechs by guys who play 40+ hours a week as your normal opponent... they'd go there. I know I would. Make it opt in for solo players who have the chutzpah to play the way we used to, and you're set.

4. Fix elo by creating mech combat value based on chassis, equipment and weapon loadouts. Use this to modify so bad mechs in the hands of good players, or good mechs in the hands of bad players would be modified.

Those are practical solutions that either will not be done or can't be done.

Quote

Freebirth comment = Joke. If you believe I'm an actual pilot built out of a eugenics program, I got some things I'd like to sell you...

Next time use a smiley to denote jokes.

Quote

I'm not implying anything. I wish there were a VOIP option for the solo queue.

Then your whole argument that solo means no teamwork or sync play is invalid.

Quote

I think it's really telling how hard people are trying to avoid the option PGI has given us. Yes the group queue is potentially harder as, potentially, there are more people working together for a common goal (though it is hard when there's no interaction between groups on the grouped queue (making a real VOIP option desired).

To be successful there you need to play 30+ hours a week in a disciplined team that sets your KDR, your mechs and loadouts, orders you how to play and expects it done with near military (or at least boyscout) efficiency. Otherwise, welcome to Stomptown. Just lie down with your head against the curb and we'll commence a-kickin it.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

Why should we have to when we can sync drop. You realize if the player base was larger, this wouldn't be an issue because the chance of it happening would drop massively.

------------>

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 23 August 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

No, saying that TS is an exploit when PGI has clearly built in it's own unpopular voip option is disingenuous. Just because it sucked doesn't mean it isn't there. 3/3/3/3 sucks, that doesn't mean it's not in the game now does it?
Elo is hardly what most would call "functional", doesn't mean it's not built in and utilized by the game right?

What I said was FAR from disingenuous. Just because their "vision" regarding voip in the game is cumbersome, slightly broken, not intuitive to use, wait....
are we talking abotu C3 or UI2.0 mech lab?

starting to see the similarities? Just because nobody liked and used C3, favoring much easier to use programs like TS, does NOT mean PGI did not build and implement a voip feature into MWO. To represent that in any other way is disingenuous.


see above

So... C3 doesn't work in MW:O. There's a button to click on that does nothing. That's not a feature, it's a decoration.

You're also taking this afield. Solo queue is.... solo. That's why it's not the group queue. I've got to think you understand this. Trying to exploit the matchmaker to bring a group into the solo queue is exploiting. If it were not exploiting there would be a built in function to support it - that works.

Currently though syncdropping to get a group into the solo queue doesn't even have a non-functional decorative button.

I'm sure next in queue will be some attempt to avoid the reality of this by trying to talk about how TS is okay to use in group queue or that MW:O was sold as a group game or whatever.

Let's also not forget the passive-aggressive arguments about how 'Pugging sucks' and 'anti-group crowd' and the like.

It's back to the same rock simple realities -

There is a solo queue. It was created so that people could play solo without playing against groups when they themselves were not in one.

There is a group queue. It was created so people could play in groups. It lets them play against other groups.

There are private matches. These let you set up 12 v 12 matches of your own. It costs nothing.

There are premium private matches. 2 people have to have premium time running (cheap, common and at the moment most people should have 7 days running) that lets you set up matches however you want with whoever you want, so if you want to just play games with your friends, there it is.

This isn't about group or anti-group (what a ridiculous word or even idea, like somehow people who play in solo queue don't play in group queue too) or anything of the sort. It's about exploiting the matchmaker to take the benefits of playing in a group that were specifically and intentionally removed from the solo queue, which is the only function purpose of having a solo queue, to the solo queue.

It's cheap, feeble and an exploit. It serves no function save to preserve the opportunity for advantage that was taken away from groups when the group and solo queue were split.

This is the whole exact and entire purpose of having a solo queue and a group queue. To have two different ways for people to play - in groups or solo. The entire motivation for that is that playing in a group provides an advantage over people playing solo. To pretend that exploiting the matchmaker to try and get that advantage back is not exploiting is just silly.

If you're in chat with someone and you guys end up in a match together nobody is going to care. Syncdropping is another issue all together. Is it legit to use voip to get an advantage in the solo queue? If anyone needs to ask that it's just depressing. 'I'm only exploiting this out-of game advantage that's otherwise intentionally excluded from THIS MODE OF PLAY (solo queue) because... uh... REASONS.'

Again, it's like Stock Mech Mondays. That's the rules you play by. You don't want to run a stock mech? For the love of GOD don't go play in Stock Mech Mondays. Going to Stock Mech Mondays and sneaking modifications like Endo into your mech for a better engine or more armor or things people are unlikely to see isn't just against the spirit of the event it's cheating the entire purpose of the event. It's also pretty feeble.

That is EXACTLY what this is. This isn't rocket science - the solo queue was created to let people who didn't want to play with or against groups RIGHT NOW THIS MOMENT play against other solo players. Exploiting to get a group in there is exactly like being the guy who tries to sneak a modified mech into SMM or otherwise cheat the rules of an event for their own benefit. To then turn around and say 'Yes, but I like to play with a modded mech! I need more armor and a faster engine or it's not fun for me. It's not really an advantage, other mechs have more armor than this one and many are faster so why is it unfair?' just makes you a jackass. Why are you there in SMM if you don't want to play in a stock mech? You're also not putting that forward up front, are you? You're sneaking a cheat in because it's a cheat and an advantage.

Don't want to play solo? DON'T PLAY IN THE SOLO QUEUE. If you're syncing to drop with a group in the solo queue you're exploiting and a feeb. Trying to say 'you just hate teamwork' or other absurd ad hominems or strawmans doesn't change this. I love teams, love the group queue. I'd pug there if I could, it's a lot of fun. I'm all for groups, all for CW providing strong tools and incentives for groups. That doesn't mean I'm okay with someone exploiting. Trying to conflate not being okay with people being exploiting feebs with hating groups and other such absurdity is just a bad excuse for bad behavior.

Sandpit this isn't all directed at you but there were several quotes above that deserved a response of some sort. I post enough without quoting all the stuff I'm responding to.

[MischiefSC]

BLOOD WOLF, on 24 August 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

------------>

I love these.

"I cheat because you make winning the way I want too hard. I wouldn't cheat if you made winning easier! WHY DO YOU FOCE ME TO CHEAT!"

I hear this sort of mewling excuse-making all the time and admit I have little patience for it.

Everyone else plays in the group and solo queues just fine and manages to soldier up and carry on. I got my 50 wins after 11 hours - I didn't have to call my mom to come hold my hand. Nobody wiped my bottom for me. I didn't have to cheat or suicide-farm wins or syncdrop because I JUST COULDN'T HANDLE IT ON MY OWN. It's pretend robots in a video game ferchristsake. I've spent 2 hours chopping mostly damp firewood that was harder than this.

When I drop with friends in the group queue I enjoy it - almost everyone I drop with is pretty casual. Sometimes I drop in groups of 2-4. You run into high-end competitive teams sometimes and get stomped. You're the odd-man-out but it's still fun because I'm playing with my friends. At no point do we go 'Boy, I wish there was some cheap exploit we could use to drop together in the solo queue so we had a big advantage'. Why?

Because we have some self-respect and some respect for the people we play with and if you can't play a game without exploiting... why are you playing?

There's no good answer to that.

I'm sure the rest of tonight and tomorrow will be full of FORUM FUNNIES. Hopefully we'll have something official from PGI on Monday. I just can't imagine they're going to blow off the entire purpose of having a solo queue though.

[BLOOD WOLF]

MischiefSC, on 24 August 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

I just can't imagine they're going to blow off the entire purpose of having a solo queue though.

agreed.

The solo is specially for the player who just want to get some quick games. In and out, that is why in the solo Que most people dis-con after they die.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 24 August 2014 - 12:32 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 23 August 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

Before I say my peace, let me start by saying... this literally wouldn't be happening had PGI made the challenge for groups and NOT JUST SOLO. That is the crux of the problem and the fault lies with PGI and NOONE ELSE.

Let's not get into the semantics with the rules and whatnot. It's rather irrelevant for the purposes of the discussion only because even PGI doesn't enforce those rules correctly or properly often times, so it's always a random debate point that isn't worth talking about.

The question is simply.. is it that much of an influence?

Consider the solo queue in its entirety. Is there quality solo play in the queue? Sure. How often does it happen? Rarely. Often times the solo queue is populated in a very odd fashion, with its quality dictated by a PGI-solo event that occurs. Even then, the quality of play is never what it should be under normal circumstances... practicing "milking the system" for what it is worth like means to an end. You will never find a consistent level of play in that queue... let alone high quality of play or players (sorry mudhut, you're not the PUG Lord you think you are).

There's really no real reason to sync drop... and even when you do it, "success" often times pits those sync droppers against each other, which does them no good since the general preference is to be on the same team.

The level of play that a 2 or even 3 man has to deal with is pretty significant in the group queue. Failure to follow standard procedure... whether it is a "NASCAR Race" or going into the middle of Mordor has to be built in and ingrained if you're serious about getting better. The thing is that often times those small groups like to screw around and do their own things... and generally comes as a detriment to the team where their presence or lack thereof can dictate results before shots are fired. So, it does have a "value" to those that are in smaller teams, but are casual. That's why I've advocated for small premades as a 3rd type of queue... especially if their average Elo is significantly lower than the norm (like a group of newbies for instance).

Anyways, it boils down to this:
Are you really worried that a solo drop has people "successfully" sync dropped on the same team (usually being like 2 or 3 of many that made it in the same game)? Will you suddenly/magically play worse?

I know there is a legit issue with this, and while it is probably unfair and unbalanced in a sense... do you have the intestinal fortitude to play through those odds (however small this type of event occurs)? Remember that this queue itself generates MANY levels of skills.. usually far LOWER than those that regularly group up. The Solo Queue is literally its own wild card.. you will still roflstomp... you will be roflstomped... but you'll have a far more share of head scratchings while a fair portion of the players do their own things and cannot be reigned in. It is the nature of the beast. Having multiple players sync dropping is nowhere near the same level as a quality Lords or other competitive premade group. At least when I see Lords, I know the match is ggclose whenever that happens (whether they are on my side or on the opposing force). It simply doesn't happen like that in the solo queue and to proclaim it is anything like that (in the way that mudhut is suggesting) is great fiction.

Here's the thing.

I don't think syncdropping is that big a deal in actual practice. A big part of that is the presence of the group queue and the difficulty in getting it done.

I do however have faith in people who really, really want to work an exploit finding a way to do it better.

Also, in the end, it's not even about how effective it is. It's about the integrity of the model - do we actually have a 'group queue' and a 'solo queue' or do we have a 'small groups and pugs queue' and a 'large groups' queue?

Because as you point out playing in a small group in the group queue is hard and some people don't like hard. If they wanted small group play they could run private matches - but they're not. They want to run in groups against pugs.

That's the fundamental issue. There used to be a built-in perk for dropping in groups. You had an advantage in pug matches. That advantage was taken away and some people want it back. At this point though when something was taken away, taking it back is an exploit. As crappy as sync-dropping was before now it's full on clownshoes cheap because there are other options.

You also can't blame PGI exclusively. Should there be group events? Absolutely. Should this event have been available in group queue? Absolutely 110% - I'd have run it with friends and that 11 hours probably would have taken longer (ain't no WAY 3-10 person casuals are going to roll 50 wins with a 65% win/loss in 11 hours. Ain't gonna hit 50 drops in 11 hours too many smoke/bio/mechbay breaks!) but it would have been a ton of fun and it would have been FMP the whole way.

That's not the contest though. There's plenty of perks for groups. Tons more on the way. If I want them I'll have to join a group - if I don't join a group, I don't get them, do I? Same thing here. You want the rewards for the pug queue challenge? You play in the pug queue by pug queue rules. If you don't, you're exploiting.

That's not hard. The moment you say 'well, it's okay to exploit because otherwise I'm not having as much fun' you just blow out any possible, conceivable objection to exploiting.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 August 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

Here's the thing.

I don't think syncdropping is that big a deal in actual practice. A big part of that is the presence of the group queue and the difficulty in getting it done.

I do however have faith in people who really, really want to work an exploit finding a way to do it better.

Also, in the end, it's not even about how effective it is. It's about the integrity of the model - do we actually have a 'group queue' and a 'solo queue' or do we have a 'small groups and pugs queue' and a 'large groups' queue?

Because as you point out playing in a small group in the group queue is hard and some people don't like hard. If they wanted small group play they could run private matches - but they're not. They want to run in groups against pugs.

That's the fundamental issue. There used to be a built-in perk for dropping in groups. You had an advantage in pug matches. That advantage was taken away and some people want it back. At this point though when something was taken away, taking it back is an exploit. As crappy as sync-dropping was before now it's full on clownshoes cheap because there are other options.

You also can't blame PGI exclusively. Should there be group events? Absolutely. Should this event have been available in group queue? Absolutely 110% - I'd have run it with friends and that 11 hours probably would have taken longer (ain't no WAY 3-10 person casuals are going to roll 50 wins with a 65% win/loss in 11 hours. Ain't gonna hit 50 drops in 11 hours too many smoke/bio/mechbay breaks!) but it would have been a ton of fun and it would have been FMP the whole way.

That's not the contest though. There's plenty of perks for groups. Tons more on the way. If I want them I'll have to join a group - if I don't join a group, I don't get them, do I? Same thing here. You want the rewards for the pug queue challenge? You play in the pug queue by pug queue rules. If you don't, you're exploiting.

That's not hard. The moment you say 'well, it's okay to exploit because otherwise I'm not having as much fun' you just blow out any possible, conceivable objection to exploiting.

The thing is... people wanted to play with each other despite the nature of the challenge.

My preference is to avoid it, but it doesn't bother me either way.

The solo queue is always a challenge, but not because it is easy... it's because it's virtually random in its design that the reliability of your teammates is based on their reputation... or pure fortune. While the only constant is you, see other people people consistently do something else like do their own thing and complain about you not helping them despite them being the first one to die is not what I consider... enjoyable.