946 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

You're all blowing this WAY out of proportion in terms of the overall advantage.

Take last weeks leaderboard tournament for example. In one of my first few solo drops, I noticed the other team had 3 players from HoL, while my team had...well...nobody. Whether this was an intentional or unintentional sync drop, it doesn't matter. My team stuck together, and we won the match.

As to how often this happens? I never saw it again the entire 100+ matches I played for the tournament.

[Sandpit]

Aresye, on 24 August 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

You're all blowing this WAY out of proportion in terms of the overall advantage.

Take last weeks leaderboard tournament for example. In one of my first few solo drops, I noticed the other team had 3 players from HoL, while my team had...well...nobody. Whether this was an intentional or unintentional sync drop, it doesn't matter. My team stuck together, and we won the match.

As to how often this happens? I never saw it again the entire 100+ matches I played for the tournament.

Had a few Lords in a sync drop earlier today talking about "surrender or die", then we proceeded to win 9-12

[Bront]

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

1. Yes. Solo means to drop alone into a group. A sync drop is a solo drop that is timed. Ergo, it meets the criterion of a solo drop for a team game. Solo does not mean 'must be total stranger unable to communicate or coordinate with'. that's silly.

Just to emphasise that point:

In a short sample size of sync dropping, we had I think 7-8 people, all in a variety of mechs, drop on a count. I missed the count by 45 seconds at one point and managed to group with other players, while there were a few failures as well.

The most we ever got in a single drop was 5, split 3 and 2 on each side. In each case, the 3 man team lost to the 2 man team.

Usually we'd get 2-1 or 1-1 if we synced, with random people taking turns on one side or other other. of the uneven drops.

The "Huge advantage" was rarely a big deal, and I noticed we had no real increase in general win % than not, but it was fun to drop with friends and then swap stories.

Suicide droppers had a bigger impact on the game than us sync droppers (as in they always on the team that lost)

Of course, the huge sample size of 8 games isn't exactly noteworthy.

Why did we even think of doing it? because we play the game to play with friends, shooting at or with them didn't really matter, and we didn't want to hold anyone back from winning the rewards. It paid to not only coordinate with the guy on teamspeak, but also with the rest of the PUG team, so we still had to use chat mostly. The biggest advantage we had was when, in a game we were up 11 - 4, I found the last mech, and had my teammate put it on coms the mech's location because I was busy fighting. I ended up dropping that last mech before anyone got close anyway. Woho.

Would we ever do it again outside of a solo queue non-competitive challenge? No. A competitive challenge is on the solo player, so we wouldn't sync drop there, and otherwise, the group queue is just easier to organize, more competitive, and just as fun.

The moral of the story? Don't want sync dropping? Don't offer a solo queue win challenge. Encourage folks who enjoy playing together to, you know, play together.

[Aresye]

Also, I'm not trying to downplay the act of sync dropping nor encourage it.

It is so rarely successful and carries such a minimal advantage, that it would literally be a waste of time for PGI to actively try and fix it, which, given PGI's track record, a fix for something so unpredictable and difficult to categorize would (at the very least) create much longer search times.

It's a simple risk assessment, and one of the key pillars of risk assessment is, "Accept no risk unless the benefits outweigh the costs." As it stands right now, the potential costs for fixing this near non-existent issue far outweigh the potential benefits.

The only thing that PGI can really do, is add a line to the Code of Conduct that says, "The act of multiple players all timing their drops into the solo queue (aka: sync dropping) in the hopes of having multiple players on the same team, is forbidden." Unfortunately, there's really no way that PGI can enforce this, unless you can send them a screenshot and/or video of multiple players openly admitting that they are sync dropping, which is about as likely as having a player admit, "Yes, I am teamkilling."

There is a plus side though. If PGI adds that line to the CoC, what was once a gray area issue before is now, without a doubt, a clear violation of the game rules.

Most units have their own rules, but they're still held liable to MWO's policies, meaning that even if a unit was okay with sync dropping before, they are now required to police their own members to ensure they aren't breaking the new MWO policy.

[Sandpit]

Bront, on 24 August 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

because we play the game to play with friends, shooting at or with them didn't really matter,

that's another thing, very few want to acknowledge that not everyone who syn drops has some sort of nefarious intention while doing so.

Aresye, on 24 August 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Also, I'm not trying to downplay the act of sync dropping nor encourage it.

It is so rarely successful and carries such a minimal advantage, that it would literally be a waste of time for PGI to actively try and fix it, which, given PGI's track record, a fix for something so unpredictable and difficult to categorize would (at the very least) create much longer search times.

It's a simple risk assessment, and one of the key pillars of risk assessment is, "Accept no risk unless the benefits outweigh the costs." As it stands right now, the potential costs for fixing this near non-existent issue far outweigh the potential benefits.

The only thing that PGI can really do, is add a line to the Code of Conduct that says, "The act of multiple players all timing their drops into the solo queue (aka: sync dropping) in the hopes of having multiple players on the same team, is forbidden." Unfortunately, there's really no way that PGI can enforce this, unless you can send them a screenshot and/or video of multiple players openly admitting that they are sync dropping, which is about as likely as having a player admit, "Yes, I am teamkilling."

There is a plus side though. If PGI adds that line to the CoC, what was once a gray area issue before is now, without a doubt, a clear violation of the game rules.

Most units have their own rules, but they're still held liable to MWO's policies, meaning that even if a unit was okay with sync dropping before, they are now required to police their own members to ensure they aren't breaking the new MWO policy.

I just don't see how they would regular that in the first place. The ONLY way to verify that is to give PGI access to a lot of information on your computer such as whether or not you're running a TS program (which incidentally doesn't not equate to group, I run comms a lot of times when I'm playing solo because I still enjoy talking to some of my online gaming buddies while I do so even if we're playing different games.

[Roland]

Aresye, on 24 August 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Also, I'm not trying to downplay the act of sync dropping nor encourage it.

It is so rarely successful and carries such a minimal advantage, that it would literally be a waste of time for PGI to actively try and fix it, which, given PGI's track record, a fix for something so unpredictable and difficult to categorize would (at the very least) create much longer search times.

This I can agree with... There's really nothing more to be done, other than perhaps banning folks who do it.
It'll become more obvious once the clan tags are in game.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

I do have to cherry pick this one (And I am sorry for it) If Everyone else is following "the rules" nobody COULD sync drop. Its a nit pick I know, but One I could not resist.

Everyone not sync dropping. Don't be that guy :-P

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

This I can agree with... There's really nothing more to be done, other than perhaps banning folks who do it.
It'll become more obvious once the clan tags are in game.

clan tags are not an indicator of syn dropping though. That's actually going to get harder after tags and CW are here. You'll see a LOT of similar tags because you'll have such a limited pool to drop with.

Anyhow, I jsut don't see how they could even begin to regulate something like that. There's no way to prove it and they can't punish people just because people like Mud "know" when they're facing off against a group.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

clan tags are not an indicator of syn dropping though. That's actually going to get harder after tags and CW are here. You'll see a LOT of similar tags because you'll have such a limited pool to drop with.

Anyhow, I jsut don't see how they could even begin to regulate something like that. There's no way to prove it and they can't punish people just because people like Mud "know" when they're facing off against a group.

If you see a bunch of folks in the solo queue with the same unit tag, it's gonna pretty much mean they're sync dropping.. because since there are multiples online, there's little reason they wouldn't be grouped and in the group queue.

[Aresye]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

If you see a bunch of folks in the solo queue with the same unit tag, it's gonna pretty much mean they're sync dropping.. because since there are multiples online, there's little reason they wouldn't be grouped and in the group queue.

I've ended up with 2-4 players from my own Clan on the same side in the solo queue many times in the past, all by pure coincidence. Would be quite a shame if we were all banned for sync dropping solely because the matchmaker decided to arrange the game that way.

Unintentional groupings are more common than you would think, especially during large events.

*Edit*

It also makes sense why that happens.

Most people in large units all play together in the group queue, so after awhile, most players end up around the same Elo. When large solo events roll around like this one, now you've got 30-40+ players all around the same Elo dropping solo, so already there's a large probability that you'll run into players from your own unit.

Edited by Aresye, 24 August 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

just curious, what advantage does a group have over solo players in your opinions?

You know we argued that one for 2 years Sandpit. The answer to that is exactly why we got a group queue and a solo queue and not a1-12 queue.

You know this. You're a smart guy but these are some really disingenuous arguments and you've got to know that. Solo queue got create and split out for a reason. That was largely driven by sync dropping.

This discussion isn't new. It was swelled many months ago. Much like with the 12man queue there is ago this "we don't want to play with pi's, let us play with groups" bs which falls apart when people find out that they don't have an advantage. Then they sneak back to pug queue and make new excuses.

You get rolled by a competitive team like one drop in ten or twenty, if not less often. I are way more likely to drop with and against 2-6 man groups of them playing troll builds. To say that it's constant competitive teams stomping little 4man clusters of casuals is mudhutwarrior grade hyperbole and you know that.

I get why some groups were pissed at the contest. While not awesome, I get it. They isn't what this is though. This is people who wan to make up reasons about why it's all to her for them unless they are playing in groups against pugs.

That is feeble.

[Roland]

Aresye, on 24 August 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

I've ended up with 2-4 players from my own Clan on the same side in the solo queue many times in the past, all by pure coincidence. Would be quite a shame if we were all banned for sync dropping solely because the matchmaker decided to arrange the game that way.

Unintentional groupings are more common than you would think, especially during large events.

*Edit*

It also makes sense why that happens.

Most people in large units all play together in the group queue, so after awhile, most players end up around the same Elo. When large solo events roll around like this one, now you've got 30-40+ players all around the same Elo dropping solo, so already there's a large probability that you'll run into players from your own unit.

One caveat here, I don't mean during weird contests or things, where you are specifically forced to play solo if you want the loot... In those cases, yeah, I'd expect to see multiple folks even if they weren't sync dropping.

But in normal play? If you've got a bunch of folks dropping, in the same unit, at the same time.. .then there's really no reason why you wouldn't be grouped, unless you are specifically trying to avoid the group queue.

[RussianWolf]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Which is why posting it on the forums is representative of what is being done. This isn't someone with a legit issue; this is someone with BAD FEELZ who is looking for two things:

1. Positive reinforcement, confirmation bias. People to bob their heads with them and say 'uh-huh! Uh-huh! Me too! I agree, so we are both correct!' This is normally indicative of someone hot having any evidence to back their concerns.

2. Negative reinforcement. Having someone to argue against lets you argue via logical fallacies and not have to actually, again, prove anything. It lets you attack people and concepts not present an argument or prove a point.

Uh oh Mischief, they are on to us. We were in the same games maybe half a dozen times this weekend, we mustabeen sync droppin'

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Had a few Lords in a sync drop earlier today talking about "surrender or die", then we proceeded to win 9-12

This is really weird, as I would expect the Lords to be good enough to win handily in the group queue.. I would think they wouldn't want to tarnish their reputation by sync dropping.

Although I suppose today it may have been in order to get the free loot for winning.

[Almeras]

zero tolerance take a 10 higher profile players caught doing it and reset their accounts to zero. Let it be know this is how PGI will treat exploiters

The fear of being caught exploiting and receiving a harsh punishment far greater than the benefit is a better deterrent than trying to fix every exploit and work around players find.

I got my 50 the hard way by far the most annoying was the deathrun/dc crowd Friday was the worst. Reset their accounts and divide up their cbills/mc between all the team mates they screwed over.

Edited by Almeras, 24 August 2014 - 03:36 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

If you see a bunch of folks in the solo queue with the same unit tag, it's gonna pretty much mean they're sync dropping.. because since there are multiples online, there's little reason they wouldn't be grouped and in the group queue.

With only 5 Houses and 4 Clans to choose from this is sorta erroneous at best Rol. I often drop PUG and end up with 4-5 other Lyrans that I don't know.

[Roland]

One thing that could be funny would be if they dealt with it by intentionally pairing those players with the absolute worst, lowest elo players in the game... the true steeringwheel underhive folks.

So if they tried playing in the solo queue, they ended up getting stomped even worse due to gross incompetence on the part of their team.

That would actually be pretty hilarious.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

With only 5 Houses and 4 Clans to choose from this is sorta erroneous at best Rol. I often drop PUG and end up with 4-5 other Lyrans that I don't know.

Oh, I don't mean the faction tag, I mean the UNIT tag.. Like HRR, or whatever your unit's abreviated tag is.

[RussianWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

With only 5 Houses and 4 Clans to choose from this is sorta erroneous at best Rol. I often drop PUG and end up with 4-5 other Lyrans that I don't know.

I think he means when the Unit tags are activated, not clan/house symbols.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

One thing that could be funny would be if they dealt with it by intentionally pairing those players with the absolute worst, lowest elo players in the game... the true steeringwheel underhive folks.

So if they tried playing in the solo queue, they ended up getting stomped even worse due to gross incompetence on the part of their team.

That would actually be pretty hilarious.


Oh, I don't mean the faction tag, I mean the UNIT tag.. Like HRR, or whatever your unit's abreviated tag is.

Is that included in the basic que already? I hadn't noticed! I'll be looking for that next time I log in!

[MischiefSC]

Okay, so you avoided even yes/no because it would have really settled this.

You also don't seem to know what "solo" and "group" mean. I hate to sound condescending here because you are clearly misrepresenting these words because you are trying very very hard to prove a false point by misrepresentation and a sort of "Gish Gallop Lite" of strawman arguments trying to explain why the rules that post much everyone else to plays the game manages with just don't apply to some people and why splitting the queue into "group queue" and "solo queue" actually means group 1 and group 2.

Solo. Group. I get you want them to mean something similar and to pretend that pgi split the queue for a reason other than splitting groups from solo play.

You're wrong though and it's not hard to see.

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

In an effort to avoid the incorrect assumption of what terms mean, I clarified because I also know the 'yes/no' trick.

1. Yes. Solo means to drop alone into a group. A sync drop is a solo drop that is timed. Ergo, it meets the criterion of a solo drop for a team game. Solo does not mean 'must be total stranger unable to communicate or coordinate with'. that's silly.

2. Absolutely. One allows for a more even matching of elo, Solo queue because it is measured individually. The group queue averages it between all members of a group causing large mismatches in skill creating matches that should never have happened.

3. Yes, and I have previously explained the difference. Do you?

4. No. But if I am, every anti syncer in this thread is an even more delicate little snowflake for freaking out and not comprehending sync does mean the same as group because of it's mechanics. I also recognize the abject hypocrisy of accusing a sync dropper of not being able to handle something a solo pugger refuses to 'handle' in elo mismatches and then pretend they're morally superior.

Rules are not broken. Intent is not thwarted. Sync is not a boogyman.

Elo mismatches caused by group elo averaging are, and if you cannot acknowledge this simple fact, then you cannot have an honest conversation on the subject. I hear no criticism of my proposed solutions or necessary improvements to fix this situation, only complaining, elitist self righteousness, smug arrogance and tantrums over the fact it happens and it cannot be stopped and yet harms nothing because somehow it messes with their chi. I mean come ON guys.... What do you really want? The solo story game where you have nobody to play with? Or a team game you can't play with your friends because the only way to do that is to square off against the kind of hyper mentality of a peewee baseball league father who won't stop trying to live vicariously through his son or daughter.