946 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 04 September 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Well, there's little hope of anyone ever agreeing in a thread like this. We're talking about fundamental values, how people perceive what's right and what's wrong. I won't go so far as saying that it's genetic, or that it's a result of how people were brought up. But changing your view on something as basic as whether or not it's ok to pretend you have a bad back so people will give you their seat on a bus (people do that too, I imagine) isn't something that will happen after a few posts on a gaming forum. It's a fundamental ethical question that would probably take years of life-altering experiences or studies to change.

With that in mind, this thread is largely pointless, because no one is likely to learn anything or change their mind. We just all walk away feeling superior, and more sure of ourselves than ever.

In closing, I will leave this picture for all the meat eaters who have been traumatized by this thread:


Bacon-wrapped onion rings.

It took me decades to develop the values I have so I agree with your premise. Remember I don't Sync drop, I do not villainize those who do. to me its a team game, and the best team wins. Even if that means I am not winning.

We really don't have a solo Que. That would imply I hit Launch and I am facing one play by myself. That is solo play. We have a PUG Que. it is a pick up game. You drop with whomever you get paired with. Sync droppers try to stack the odds of dropping with their friends.

Those Onion rings do look awesome!

[DaZur]

Here's the reality....

Like the handful of douche bags who use the free sample stations as their personal grazing buffet... The number of players who do utilize syc-drops as means to net advantage in PUG drops is equally minuscule.

"Most" people who have even an ounce of social morality don't subscribe to this action. That said, while frowned upon, it is not in any way, shape or form... "cheating".

No one is "defending" the action... Most are by in large defending the differentiation between "cheating / exploiting" and the lesser evil of simply being douches.

[Sandpit]

DaZur, on 04 September 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

I coach youth football... One of my golden rules is "Holding is not illegal unless you get caught"... Anyone who has played any competitive level football can attest to this reality.

Point being, holding is deemed illegal thus is penalized... That said, everyone and their grandma holds.

In context to MW:O... Yes, synchronized drops is considered "poor form" and in turn can net varying levels of advantage, largely dependent upon the quality of the opposing team.

That said, it's not "illegal" until PGI outright denounces it... Which would quite honestly be stupid in a "team" (meaning more than one) oriented game...

Anyone who plays competitive sports knows it's common practice to push the edge of what is consider "acceptable / poor-form" in an effort to net an advantage over their competition... Not saying it's socially acceptable... but that's the reality and life is not filled with padded walls and rounded corners.

[Sandpit]

DaZur, on 04 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

No one is "defending" the action... Most are by in large defending the differentiation between "cheating / exploiting" and the lesser evil of simply being douches.

exactly

[DaZur]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Googley-eyed emoticons will not get you in my pants sir... Ya gotta buy me dinner first! (And I can down a 32 oz. steak without pausing to burp)...

[RussianWolf]

DaZur, on 04 September 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

I coach youth football... One of my golden rules is "Holding is not illegal unless you get caught"... Anyone who has played any competitive level football can attest to this reality.

Point being, holding is deemed illegal thus is penalized... That said, everyone and their grandma holds.

In context to MW:O... Yes, synchronized drops is considered "poor form" and in turn can net varying levels of advantage, largely dependent upon the quality of the opposing team.

That said, it's not "illegal" until PGI outright denounces it... Which would quite honestly be stupid in a "team" (meaning more than one) oriented game...

Anyone who plays competitive sports knows it's common practice to push the edge of what is consider "acceptable / poor-form" in an effort to net an advantage over their competition... Not saying it's socially acceptable... but that's the reality and life is not filled with padded walls and rounded corners.

"I know its against the rules, but we are going to do it until we get caught" isn't really the best way to start this argument.

A better analogy would be something like.... You are the parent of a child with some football potential. The kid is about average, but could be great if only......... So you hold him back a couple grades and viola, he is now a Man among Boys and the star of the team.You didn't break and hard "rules" but you gamed the system. Others follow suit and soon you have what is basically a Jr. College team vs High Schoolers. Fair? Sportsman-like?


Yes, there actually have been cases of parents lying about their kids age to have them play younger kids in sports. Stack the deck any way you want, an Exploit is attempting the game the system.

Edited by RussianWolf, 04 September 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[Sandpit]

DaZur, on 04 September 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

Googley-eyed emoticons will not get you in my pants sir... Ya gotta buy me dinner first! (And I can down a 32 oz. steak without pausing to burp)...

pffft I MIGHT let you super-size McD's

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Stack the deck any way you want, an Exploit is attempting the game the system.

yes it is, that doesn't make it illegal

FoV adjustments
Sync Dropping
Grain Removal

That's just 3 off the top of my head, all the exact same situation. Some feel they're "cheating" and don't like it, the rules state otherwise. If you want to be angry or upset about it, complain to PGI, not the players. What do you expect players to do about it? Stop doing it just because you dont' "like" it? Not going to happen and no amount of complaining to, about, or otherwise degrading players who do it will change that. If you really want that rule changed then take it to PGI, same goes for the others complaining about it in this thread.

TAKE IT TO PGI

they make the rules, not the other players that you're attacking.

[RussianWolf]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

pffft I MIGHT let you super-size McD's


yes it is, that doesn't make it illegal

FoV adjustments
Sync Dropping
Grain Removal

That's just 3 off the top of my head, all the exact same situation. Some feel they're "cheating" and don't like it, the rules state otherwise. If you want to be angry or upset about it, complain to PGI, not the players. What do you expect players to do about it? Stop doing it just because you dont' "like" it? Not going to happen and no amount of complaining to, about, or otherwise degrading players who do it will change that. If you really want that rule changed then take it to PGI, same goes for the others complaining about it in this thread.

TAKE IT TO PGI

they make the rules, not the other players that you're attacking.

Isn't that what this forum is supposedly about? It's set up by and supposedly monitored by the developers. What other avenue do we really have? MisChief has already put in a Ticket and gotten a response. But that is just Customer Service's response???? So how do we contact the developers? By the terms you are setting, we may as well all go home and not provide any type of feedback on the forums at all, because it's not taking it to PGI?

I'm also against the other things you've mentioned, even though PGI has "allowed" them through either silence or openly endorsing them. If you want something like that in game, then make it easy for a completely new person to the game with no computer skills to use. Not, "oh, you can do it but you have to go into the game files and do this". That's not in game. Its a disservice to the players that PGI has taken this kind of path repeatedly, and that we, as a community accept it is sad imho.

As I've said all along. For me, I don't care. I'll play whoever, Whenever. I've proven that with action, not words. Go into a match with Orion brawlers against 3rdworld, TwinkyOverlord, and company in Timberwolves? Done it. Join up with teams (basically as filler, why else would they want ME?) to drop in the group queue? Done it. I could care less if I never win another match in the game, I'll have fun trying every time I drop in either a group or solo running a bunch of stock builds or whatever else catches my fancy (don't expect to ever see a min/max build from me though).

I don't believe I've attacked any players in this thread. I have attacked a practice and I have questioned, Why? The reasons given were really pathetic as none were exclusive to the solo queue, but that is what was claimed. To me the reason behind it is irrelevant, but I did at least ask so that I would understand. The problem is understanding didn't help.

[Sandpit]

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Isn't that what this forum is supposedly about? It's set up by and supposedly monitored by the developers. What other avenue do we really have? MisChief has already put in a Ticket and gotten a response. But that is just Customer Service's response???? So how do we contact the developers? By the terms you are setting, we may as well all go home and not provide any type of feedback on the forums at all, because it's not taking it to PGI?

The minute you try to paint anyone doing this in an unflattering light, you're attacking them for sync dropping.

I never said "Stop posting!"
I said, dont' argue with others about the validity of sync dropping. it's pointless. They have no ability to make it illegal. As it stands now, they're perfectly within the rules of the game and aren't violating anything.

As it stands now
Sync dropping is LEGAL
period
end of discussion on that aspect of it
Nothing you, or anyone else, can say about it changes the fact that it's perfectly legal at the moment, so stop making it into "you shouldn't do it" because you, nor I, have ANY authority to tell others they can't do it since it is perfectly legal at the moment.

Instead, make your case to PGi about why you feel it should be illegal.

[Roland]

Legal is not necessarily the metric by which we deem things acceptable.

[Joseph Mallan]

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

A better analogy would be something like.... You are the parent of a child with some football potential. The kid is about average, but could be great if only......... So you hold him back a couple grades and viola, he is now a Man among Boys and the star of the team.You didn't break and hard "rules" but you gamed the system. Others follow suit and soon you have what is basically a Jr. College team vs High Schoolers. Fair? Sportsman-like?

When I was on the High School football team, Myself and the other three defensive line men were powerful big guys "Men Among Boys". We ran roughshod over most offensive lines. Fair? Sportsman-like?

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Isn't that what this forum is supposedly about?

Sorry I did stop here. You answered your own question.

Maybe you should ask it again on Twitter?

Roland, on 04 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Legal is not necessarily the metric by which we deem things acceptable.

And not everyone deems acceptable the same way.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 04 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Legal is not necessarily the metric by which we deem things acceptable.

No, but it IS the metric by which things are deemed cheating. Again, if you want the rule changed make your case for it to PGI, not shaming other players because you don't "like" them doing it.

Like I said, no different than FoV adjustments. There's zero difference. It's not illegal so personal opinions on it are irrelevant. That's what I'm getting at. No amount of back and forth about whether or not it's "nice" to do changes the fact that PGi has stated it's not Illegal. Period.

[RussianWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 September 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

When I was on the High School football team, Myself and the other three defensive line men were powerful big guys "Men Among Boys". We ran roughshod over most offensive lines. Fair? Sportsman-like?

Sorry I did stop here. You answered your own question.

Maybe you should ask it again on Twitter?


And not everyone deems acceptable the same way.

If you were the same age as the other kids, then yes. If you were held back a couple grades and were 2 year olders (and therefore larger and more developed as a result), then no. Not very sportsman-like. regardless of the rules.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

No, but it IS the metric by which things are deemed cheating. Again, if you want the rule changed make your case for it to PGI, not shaming other players because you don't "like" them doing it.

Like I said, no different than FoV adjustments. There's zero difference. It's not illegal so personal opinions on it are irrelevant. That's what I'm getting at. No amount of back and forth about whether or not it's "nice" to do changes the fact that PGi has stated it's not Illegal. Period.

I can shame you for whatever I want. It doesn't have to technically be cheating.

[Joseph Mallan]

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

If you were the same age as the other kids, then yes. If you were held back a couple grades and were 2 year olders (and therefore larger and more developed as a result), then no. Not very sportsman-like. regardless of the rules.

You do know there are parents who disagreed with you very very loudly when I we played. So I guess Sportsman-like is quite subjective as well.

Roland, on 04 September 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

I can shame you for whatever I want. It doesn't have to technically be cheating.

Actually you can attempt to shame someone, actually achieving the intended goal may be out of your control.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 September 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

The minute you try to paint anyone doing this in an unflattering light, you're attacking them for sync dropping.

I never said "Stop posting!"
I said, dont' argue with others about the validity of sync dropping. it's pointless. They have no ability to make it illegal. As it stands now, they're perfectly within the rules of the game and aren't violating anything.

As it stands now
Sync dropping is LEGAL
period
end of discussion on that aspect of it
Nothing you, or anyone else, can say about it changes the fact that it's perfectly legal at the moment, so stop making it into "you shouldn't do it" because you, nor I, have ANY authority to tell others they can't do it since it is perfectly legal at the moment.

Instead, make your case to PGi about why you feel it should be illegal.

So how can you disagree with an aspect of the game without painting the ones that agree with that aspect in an unflattering light and thus attacking them?

[Joseph Mallan]

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

So how can you disagree with an aspect of the game without painting the ones that agree with that aspect in an unflattering light and thus attacking them?

I don't like Sync dropping, It is an advantage that solo dropping PUGs have trouble overcoming.


Did I paint anyone anything?

[RussianWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 September 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

You do know there are parents who disagreed with you very very loudly when I we played. So I guess Sportsman-like is quite subjective as well.


Actually you can attempt to shame someone, actually achieving the intended goal may be out of your control.

And we know all parents must be good sports.

You know as well as me that most parents are very BAD sports when it comes to their kids failing.


Eleanor-esque?

Joseph Mallan, on 04 September 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

I don't like Sync dropping, It is an advantage that solo dropping PUGs have trouble overcoming.


Did I paint anyone anything?

Well, you just said that those who sync drop have an advantage, and that's an attack apparently. I'm still learning the rules myself,

[DaZur]

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Your example is a clear case of rules being broken (FYI all, youth football organizations have a clear rules in terms of age, weight, and geographical boundaries)... A parent skirting those rules is making a concerted effort to hide the factual information to net gains...

Sync-dropping, while a clear act of willful douchiary action and is widely frowned upon by the community... Has no clear "rule" defining it as being "illegal".

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 04 September 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

I can shame you for whatever I want. It doesn't have to technically be cheating.

No, actually shaming is against the ToS. Sync dropping is not.

RussianWolf, on 04 September 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

So how can you disagree with an aspect of the game without painting the ones that agree with that aspect in an unflattering light and thus attacking them?

Talk about the aspect instead of the players.