946 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

RussianWolf, on 28 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

not going to go back up and find the quote.

Someone said something about they sync, then the ones that wind up in the same game get on comms. And someone earlier questioned, what if you solo drop and someone you know is in the match, does that count as a sync.

To me the difference is comms. When I'm running solo I don't have TS active. So if I see someone I know, even someone I group with. I'll type chat with them but that is it. Same as if someone I don't know asks a question, or if I try to herd my cats towards a strategy. Honestly, most of the time I just react to the movements my team makes (aka not get left on my own) and try to do what I can to be a benefit.

Once you join TS comms with others in the match, you have an advantage. Whether you use that advantage effectively or not is irrelevant,

It would be like playing a game of pick up football. In one game, you actually get your coach and he uses the play calling shorthand that you use in real games. It would give you an advantage over the other team who has a stranger for a coach so have to revert to just talking to make calls. One team its a couple hand gestures, the other has to have a conversation to get the same result. The stranger coach could be Nick Sabin and the other side would still have the advantage.

For me personally, I don't care. I'm one of those that would be willing to be a solo filler for an 11man in the groups. But for those that have a harder time or simply don't want to be against groups in any way shape or form, I will speak up. If they want to give us a combined queue that allows solos, teams and sync dropping, fine. But the solo queue should remain the solo queue and sync dropping should be allowed there.

I recall some of the teams didn't want solos in their queue as well because they didn't want low level players screwing up their teams. So a 3rd queue may be the best option. Solo Only, Anything goes (Solo, teams 2-12, sync dropping), and Teams only (2-10+12)

Somehow my thread in patch feedback got archived.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 27 August 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

Finally, Sandpit, you're really strawmanning that last bit. You're saying that there's no reason to say people shouldn't drop in groups in the solo queue because people would... .complain about something else?

nooooooooooooo
I'm not approving of or promoting sync drops. I'm also not condemning them. I don't care one way or the other to be honest, I don't have a horse in this race. I just wanted to point out that it's not illegal at the moment and regardless of what PGI says about it, they'll just move on to the next boogeyman. That's it. I haven't done a sync drop since in many many moons. I didn't care for it much because it's honestly too much of a headache to get 20+ people all quiet and lined up to listen to a countdown, hit the launch button, etc.
Too much work for me. Every once in a great while I consider dropping in Marik Monday Madness but it's been....... 4-5 months (give or take) since I participated.

I also don't like (which is I think what offended Khu in the first place) the connotation that anyone who does it is simply looking to beat up on solo players. That's simply not the case so I didn't want myself and the others I know to be lumped into that category. not everyone did/does it with any kind of nefarious motive behind it. it is.was a fun thing to do in order to just drop into a game a shoot the sh*t out of your unit mates. That's the only thing behind it. Plus running challenges like "Locusts only" or "Stock only" and stuff like that. It makes it more challenging and just a fun evening of hanging out with your unit a lot of times.

Sure there are some who do it just to make life miserable for others but, as pointed out, it's nowhere near as simple and easy to sync drop multiple teammates into the same game on the same team. It's a rare occurrence and any kind of "It happens all the time" or "I had 8mans sync drop consistently 5 games in a row" is simply either a lie, extreme hyperbole, or astronomical odds. it simply doesn't work like that no matter how hard you try. I've seen 40+ people hit launch at the same time and seen what happens. You're lucky if you can get 3-4 in the same game let alone on the same team.

My entire point to posting here was to clear up some of those misconceptions and dispute the "cheating" claims because PGI hasn't set down a policy that would declare this an exploit or cheat.

If PGI says it's illegal, it doesn't really affect me.
If PGI says it's legal, it doesn't really affect me.

I don't care one way or the other on this issue. Whatever PGI says is what should be followed regardless. I just wanted to clear up a few of the "evil premades" rhetoric that was being spouted by a few in there and the cheating claims. That's all. I'm not trying to defend, condone, or otherwise endorse sync dropping at all, I'm also not trying to say it shouldnt' be done. Just consider me the Swiss on this particular issue lol

[MischiefSC]

So i see the response was to avoid the question. Go back through command chair posts; I'm at work and doing it on my phone is cumbersome. The solo queue was created because most people dropped solo but groups were winning significantly more. Queues were split because making the game less fun for a majority so that a minority could play with an advantage wasn't cool.

You also neatly sidestepped the bulk of it. Solo queue was created to remove the group dynamic from that queue so people could play on the more even footing of everyone being solo instead of some solo some group.

Exploiting the matchmaker to let you rope pugs into being unwilling filler for your groups casual matches is uncool. You can try to excuse up how it's not a big deal because... Reasons, but nobody is fooled.

You could use group queue or private matches, but you don't. Instead you sync to rope in people who specifically and intentionally picked solo, and you really don't see the issue there?

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 28 August 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

So i see the response was to avoid the question. Go back through command chair posts; I'm at work and doing it on my phone is cumbersome. The solo queue was created because most people dropped solo but groups were winning significantly more. Queues were split because making the game less fun for a majority so that a minority could play with an advantage wasn't cool.

You also neatly sidestepped the bulk of it. Solo queue was created to remove the group dynamic from that queue so people could play on the more even footing of everyone being solo instead of some solo some group.

Exploiting the matchmaker to let you rope pugs into being unwilling filler for your groups casual matches is uncool. You can try to excuse up how it's not a big deal because... Reasons, but nobody is fooled.

You could use group queue or private matches, but you don't. Instead you sync to rope in people who specifically and intentionally picked solo, and you really don't see the issue there?

avoid what question?

Sandpit, on 28 August 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

If PGI says it's illegal, it doesn't really affect me.
If PGI says it's legal, it doesn't really affect me.

I don't care one way or the other on this issue. Whatever PGI says is what should be followed regardless.

That's all that really needs to be said I thought.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I don't care either way. Follow PGI's ruling on it. It's really that simple.

You're looking for an argument dude, you need to back up a bit. You're trying to turn this into something it's not.

Has PGi said it's illegal?
Is there a rule preventing it?
Is there a precedence showing that PGI frowns upon this and punishes players for doing it?

If not, then it's not illegal, cheating, an exploit, or anything else. It's that simple. Opinions on it being "good" or "bad" are completely, totally, 100% irrelevant

Vice versa

If PGI says it's illegal then those doing it should be punished accordingly

It's really that simple

[QuackAttack]

MischiefSC, on 28 August 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

So i see the response was to avoid the question. Go back through command chair posts; I'm at work and doing it on my phone is cumbersome. The solo queue was created because most people dropped solo but groups were winning significantly more. Queues were split because making the game less fun for a majority so that a minority could play with an advantage wasn't cool.

You also neatly sidestepped the bulk of it. Solo queue was created to remove the group dynamic from that queue so people could play on the more even footing of everyone being solo instead of some solo some group.

Exploiting the matchmaker to let you rope pugs into being unwilling filler for your groups casual matches is uncool. You can try to excuse up how it's not a big deal because... Reasons, but nobody is fooled.

You could use group queue or private matches, but you don't. Instead you sync to rope in people who specifically and intentionally picked solo, and you really don't see the issue there?

I went back to what I posted on page 23. And replied directly to your questions above.
After some more digging, look at what I found. ]http://mwomercs.com/...c-drops-are-ok/
Now this is from Paul back in Dec '12 but...
]Is it a punishable exploit? No.
Is it an unintentional side effect of the current matchmaker? Yes.
What's going to be done about it? Phase 3

Edited by QuackAttack, 28 August 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Sandpit]

QuackAttack, on 28 August 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I went back to what I posted on page 23. And replied directly to your questions above.
[color=#959595]After some more digging, look at what I found. [/color]http://mwomercs.com/...c-drops-are-ok/
[color=#959595]Now this is from Paul back in Dec '12 but...[/color]
[color=#959595]Is it a punishable exploit? No.[/color]
Is it an unintentional side effect of the current matchmaker? Yes.
What's going to be done about it? Phase 3.

That answers that I suppose. Not a punishable exploit

[RussianWolf]

QuackAttack, on 28 August 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I went back to what I posted on page 23. And replied directly to your questions above.
After some more digging, look at what I found. ]http://mwomercs.com/...c-drops-are-ok/
Now this is from Paul back in Dec '12 but...
]Is it a punishable exploit? No.
Is it an unintentional side effect of the current matchmaker? Yes.
What's going to be done about it? Phase 3

did you read beyond the title????

[QuackAttack]

RussianWolf, on 28 August 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

did you read beyond the title????

I did, did you scroll down to where I copied Paul's quotes from

[RussianWolf]

QuackAttack, on 28 August 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I did, did you scroll down to where I copied Paul's quotes from

well, lets get the entire quote

Quote

[color=#00FFFF]Wow.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]
nom de guerre, on 12 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]


actually he never says that its an exploit, just that its something that will be prevented in phase 3. which is in line with an earlier post of his which i cant find where he said back in p1 that it was not an exploit.

not to mention its almost impossible to prove since the mm regularly drops 2 random 4 mans on the same side[/color]


[color=#00FFFF]
Tennex, on 12 December 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]

sync drops were never intended. Its just a way for the people hwo have been crying about having to play with pugs, and when they finally have a system so that these 8 mans dont have to play with pugs,

to now exploit the system, because now all of a sudden they miss stomping pugs.

and need to use an exploit to get more players in than intended.[/color]



[color=#00FFFF]^^^[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]What these two said.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]Is it a punishable exploit? No.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Is it an unintentional side effect of the [/color]current [color=#00FFFF]matchmaker? Yes.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]What's going to be done about it? Phase 3.

[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]"What these two said" pointing to one that blatantly calls it an exploit that they aren't going to fix until phase three. So it is in fact considered an exploit, just an "accepted" one for now.[/color]

[Sandpit]

RussianWolf, on 28 August 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]just an "accepted" one [/color]

good, can we stop with all the complaints about it?

[The Massive]

New flavour of whinge. At least now I won't have to hear about match maker for a few weeks.

[Sandpit]

By stopping complaints I mean calling it cheating. Not feedback asking PGI to prevent it or stop it etc.

[QuackAttack]

RussianWolf, on 28 August 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

well, lets get the entire quote

[/font][/color]

[color=#00FFFF]"What these two said" pointing to one that blatantly calls it an exploit that they aren't going to fix until phase three. So it is in fact considered an exploit, just an "accepted" one for now.[/color]

Lets put the statements together.

actually he never says that its an exploit, just that its something that will be prevented in phase 3. which is in line with an earlier post of his which i cant find where he said back in p1 that it was not an exploit.
Is it a punishable exploit? No

sync drops were never intended.
Is it an unintentional side effect of the current matchmaker? Yes.


Now keep in mind the discussion at that time was concerning some folks sync dropping several 4 man teams together with the intent of bypassing the 8man group queue. A large number of unteamed players dropping at around the same time was not being discussed.

[MischiefSC]

So... after the last MM updates (we're currently in phase 4 actually) does that mean there isn't supposed to be syncing?

If no response from the people I've asked by Monday I'll give it another poke. I was going to post a guide to syncdropping successfully (how to approximately sort your Elos by weight class and how to test where you fall in MM placement and how best to stagger launch to actually feed you all into the same match. With enough tests you could even identify how the MM places people, staggered 1 team than the other or as single buckets, etc) but the goal isn't to try and make a problem but simply identify how PGI sees the solo queue.

Is it a solo queue or just a casual queue? Why are sync-dropped groups alright but regular ones not? These sorts of questions are best just laid out honestly. If PGI doesn't care about sync-dropping and if after having made the solo queue doesn't really care what happens there because it's just 'pure casual', why all the talk of 'solo only' about it and when the MM changes went in saying how they were carefully balancing groups (which were then in fact completely removed) only to just... what?

Also the response I got from support was pretty specific and clear. Are they out of sync with everyone else?

Meh.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 29 August 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

So... after the last MM updates (we're currently in phase 4 actually) does that mean there isn't supposed to be syncing?

If no response from the people I've asked by Monday I'll give it another poke. I was going to post a guide to syncdropping successfully (how to approximately sort your Elos by weight class and how to test where you fall in MM placement and how best to stagger launch to actually feed you all into the same match. With enough tests you could even identify how the MM places people, staggered 1 team than the other or as single buckets, etc) but the goal isn't to try and make a problem but simply identify how PGI sees the solo queue.

Is it a solo queue or just a casual queue? Why are sync-dropped groups alright but regular ones not? These sorts of questions are best just laid out honestly. If PGI doesn't care about sync-dropping and if after having made the solo queue doesn't really care what happens there because it's just 'pure casual', why all the talk of 'solo only' about it and when the MM changes went in saying how they were carefully balancing groups (which were then in fact completely removed) only to just... what?

Also the response I got from support was pretty specific and clear. Are they out of sync with everyone else?

Meh.

Now you see what I mean by disorganization. This should be a pretty simple question for them to answer. It's not rocket science. Either they say it's ok to do or it's not. Is it a punishable offense? Is it happening as much as some people in here portray it? Or is it not happening enough to be any kind of significant issue? *shrugs*

That also begs the question, if they do see the solo queue as the "casual" queue and the group queue as the "competitive" queue, why not let those "competitive" solo players opt into the group queue?Then all size groups can play and solos are likely to be on a team with only 1-2 groups making it easier for that solo player to "integrate" and those groups can help pass on plans and tactics.

I also wonder if (because I honestly think the way you do as far as the solo queue seemingly acting as a "casual" queue) if that's in preparation for a "CW" queue. that will let those wanting public "casual" games have their own queue? That's an interesting thought. I think the solo queue and players at this point are an afterthought to PGI. The way they've talked over the past few weeks it seems like the game is shifting (yet again) towards the "competitive" crowds wants.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sandpit, on 29 August 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

By stopping complaints I mean calling it cheating. Not feedback asking PGI to prevent it or stop it etc.

It's cheating. No two ways about it. Its a calculated means to take advantage of those dropping solo without benefit of comms.
Just the fact you are trying so hard to cover for it says a lot with your Marik Mondays.

Your problem is you think people are stupid and easily swayed by repetition. For you its working in the opposite and your reputation outside the exploit ranks is shrinking.

[Galenit]

You call cheating exploiting if you need to defend if it (for your self).

Edited by Galenit, 30 August 2014 - 01:23 AM.

[bobF]

Likewise, realize that not every player here is a chump, and understands your indignant whining is really all about legitimizing nub farming in the group queue, while decrying the "cheating" in solo queue. The community for this game is some of the absolute worst I've seen, worse than an fps or mmo gaming forum. Truly, this forum reigns supreme with the thickest of all neckbeards.

Why do you even care what happens in the solo queue, most of your peers think too highly of themselves to play there. This is just some passive-aggressive, catty behavior by computer nerds, shedding rivers of tears over some perceived circumvention of game mechanics. You cite "without benefit of comms" when the same thing happens when small groups are dropped together.

People attacking others while they serve as some apologist for the efficient farming that's actually occurring in group queue are pathetic. Carebear wanna be pvpers, who wouldn't last 2 seconds if they joined an actually competitive queue.

[MischiefSC]

The argument that sync dropping in the pug queue to get an advantage on solo players is okay because competitive groups tend to roll casual smaller groups in the group queue....

It's the bad justifications that keep dragging me back. 'It's totally okay when I do to others what I complain about other people doing to me, because when it do it then it's just in fun. All THOSE GUYS, they're just aholes'.

Some people just want to play with their friends, I totally get that. Private matches are great for it. If you want filler for your playing with your friends you do it in the group queue - because everyone there is on an even keel that way, everyone goes into group queue knowing they will be playing with and against other groups. Sync dropping into the solo queue so you can rope solo players into being unwilling filler for your matches with your friends is so obviously, blatantly against the whole purpose and concept of the solo queue that I admit some fascination in prodding it just because the excuses for why doing *exactly* what drove them out of the group queue and its 'competitive players' are so incredibly convoluted.

There really aren't that many competitive groups in group queue either. About 1 in 20 drops I see them. You get more flat out face-rolls in solo queue.

Personally I think the solo queue should be totally solo and sync dropping a no-go there. Then you have a 'casual' queue where you can drop groups or solo, mixed clan/IS, doesn't matter. Then you've got the CW queue, where you've got set rules about who can bring what and you're either dropping with your group or as mercenary filler for them.

As to syncing though... the solution to stop sync dropping was the MM we have now. Does that mean it's not allowed? An official response would be great. I'd go so far as to say 'required'.

[QuackAttack]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 August 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

It's cheating. No two ways about it. Its a calculated means to take advantage of those dropping solo without benefit of comms.
Just the fact you are trying so hard to cover for it says a lot with your Marik Mondays.

Your problem is you think people are stupid and easily swayed by repetition. For you its working in the opposite and your reputation outside the exploit ranks is shrinking.

My problem is that even after searching the forums for a post from a Dev, and finding a direct quote from Paul to back my argument up, you come back with the same repetitive argument. An argument that I can sum up as "I do not want to play a multiplayer game with other players." Actually that's more your problem. And you have no idea about what our Marik Monday Madness is about, you have turned down many invites to see what the event is all about. All you would have to do is create another account, so you can hide who you are if you want and join our TS server as a guest. Starts up at 10pm EST.

That invite is also open to Mischief, although he seems like a swell enough chap that using his real callsign won't be a problem. Can gather is data about the practice. Or not, that seems like a lot of work and I'm not sure that I want to be a part of that.