101 replies to this topic

[uglydisease]

I just had an argument with a friend about how to use assaults correctly. He proposes that Assaults are supposed to be meat shields and should never be lrm boats. I disagree, especially when it comes to pugging when you are in a slow moving assault the rest of the team almost never waits for you making it impossible to meat shield. Its not uncommon for an assault placed in a poor spawn location to be wolf packed by a group of lights that rip out the mechs back armor. This doesn't do much to help absorb damage for the team either. In most assault mechs I wind up with weapons like AC5s, PPCs, LL and Gauss because the front lines are usually farther away from you than in a faster mech. My friend contents that assaults should NEVER be lrm boats. This seems silly to me as Stalkers make for some of the best LRM boats in the game. Honestly I felt like he was being a bit an elite purest.

When playing in a group the rules are a bit different I grant you but I still don't think there is anything wrong with using an assault lrm boat if the team is taking an lrm/tag/narc strategy.

Any opinions on this question.

[Grey Black]

uglydisease, on 23 August 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

I just had an argument with a friend about how to use assaults correctly. He proposes that Assaults are supposed to be meat shields and should never be lrm boats. I disagree, especially when it comes to pugging when you are in a slow moving assault the rest of the team almost never waits for you making it impossible to meat shield. Its not uncommon for an assault placed in a poor spawn location to be wolf packed by a group of lights that rip out the mechs back armor. This doesn't do much to help absorb damage for the team either. In most assault mechs I wind up with weapons like AC5s, PPCs, LL and Gauss because the front lines are usually farther away from you than in a faster mech. My friend contents that assaults should NEVER be lrm boats. This seems silly to me as Stalkers make for some of the best LRM boats in the game. Honestly I felt like he was being a bit an elite purest.

When playing in a group the rules are a bit different I grant you but I still don't think there is anything wrong with using an assault lrm boat if the team is taking an lrm/tag/narc strategy.

Any opinions on this question.

The short answer is: Depends.

The long answer is that it varies significantly on your choice of mech, tonnage, hitboxes, technology level, mastery, hardpoints, and many other factors. For example, mechs with a significant number of missile hardpoints in PUGs can be outfitted to bring significant hurt, as PUGs are generally rather disorganized and unable to really mount any sort of unified defense or ECM coverage. This leaves you with the option of either staying back and laying the hurt or building for the brawl and charging in hardcore.

However, I would argue that your lack of mobility as an assault disqualifies you somewhat from the lurmboat position. As a lurmboat, you become effectively boned if an Ember comes up and cores you from behind. Hell, if a Raven 3L runs in, you're still boned, and within 180m, you're effectively useless*. This leads the big, bad assault mech mewling for help from the front liners, which means less guys up front taking damage for your lurm assault, making your PUG an easier roll. Yes, the number of lurms you can pack is immense, but you swiftly become useless up close against a more agile foe.

As to the Stalker, these mechs are actually severely tanky, because of how the hitboxes are set up. As long as you're not packing an XL engine, you can torso twist and protect your core extremely effectively, which is actually very conducive for brawlers. In fact, I would argue that the Stalker is actually a BETTER brawler than lurmboat, as you can pack that many more SRMs on and deal hella damage to the face.

For my cbills, the Assault mech should be a front line mech tanking as much damage as possible. Because they can take more damage than Heavies or Mediums, they should ideally be up there to take a couple shots with Mediums and Heavies supporting.

*Clanners are different, yet similar. The Dire Whale is a terrible lurmboat, but the Masakari might be a good idea.

[uglydisease]

I see your point about the stalker, but at a maximum speed of 65kph I have a hard time closing the 270m gap for the srm's. Similarly its hard to turn down the consistant 500 to 1000+ dmg a game I get using the stalker as an lrm boat in pug matches. Though I see your point about a couple of lights stopping you dead. I'm still reluctant to turn all those big throbbing missile tubes into tiny srm6 chodes.

[Mobile Ordnance Platform]

assaults make excellent lrm platforms, like battlemaster and stalker

alot of extra tonnage for heaps of ammo to be effective all match unlike lighter class missile mechs, extra hardpoints for close range damage and tough enough that they will survive an engagement to keep supporting, long range weapon system compliments the slow speeds

some assault of course are not suited, they just dont have the ideal hardpoints and tubecounts

there is no right or wrong answer in that it comes down to play style - do u want to work your way close with a stalker and unleash srm hell ? or hold the mid range line 5 large lasers ? or support from far with barrages of lrms ? as long as the player is effective with their chosen playstyle

clanmechs have made the whole "heavy tonnage assault mech leads the charge' ideal obsolete because now advanced technology trumps the raw toughness

[Barkem Squirrel]

My favorite LRM boats are the mediums, but the assaults LRM boats can anchor a line. Heavies are good LRM boats, and can carry more of the bells and whistles than a medium can.

The 1S Battlemaster, the awesomes and the Stalkers may be the best LRM boats out there. Run a lance of three of them with an ECM light spotter and see what happens. It should be TAG, get locks, fire twice, dead, next. Warning LRM rage will ensure due to matches like this.

One thing I do is to stay close to the line. At some point I might run out of LRMs in an assault. When that happens, well I become the tip of the spear and draw fire. Just think at the end of the matches, what type of havoc can a fresh mech do? Run out of ammo and become the front line and let my more damaged team mates use my armor or me in particular as a meat shield. I do not know how many times with the Jagger A I have ended the match leading a charge using TAG, one ML and two MG's. Then getting one or two more kills. Then just the sound of MGs make cored mechs try to flee.

Also remember, once you start firing an LRM boat any other good LRM boater on the other team has a new #1 target, you. what is better to survive in, armor or speed to get under cover or break lock from concealment.

In pugs you need LRMs, no way around that. Now the big question is do they know how to use them or do they fling them at every target that pops up. That may be the most important question to ask if they are using an assault mech to boat LRMs.

[Anassi]

I found it to be a pretty solid strategy to outfit an LRM launcher or two on an otherwise close-range Dire Whale if in any way possible. You can't really LOLLURM with the whale due to a severe lack of missile hardpoints (the Mad Cat is a way better boat if you are into this and much more mobile) but it at least gives me something useful to do while stomping over the map with my pathetic speed, trying to get in range. This is especially true if you happen to run a brawler build like the DakkaDakkaWolf and happen to get one of the huge open maps.

[Modo44]

You are wrong. LRM boating is luck-based, and putting it on an assault is expecting the enemy team to not shoot your squishy friends while you sit in the back. Double idiocy. The heavy rain will feel easy until you start matching against people who know how to play. At which point all you are going to have, is frustration. It is entirely different to have a supporting long-range/indirect fire weapon system on a mech with other weapons. Backup LRMs make perfect sense, especially with how light they are for Clan mechs.

Edited by Modo44, 24 August 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Escef]

Modo44, on 24 August 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

You are wrong. LRM boating is luck-based, and putting it on an assault is expecting the enemy team to not shoot your squishy friends while you sit in the back. Double idiocy.

If this is what you think than you have never seen a well played LRM boat. Granted, most LRM boaters never actually become good, either. A lot of them simply fling ordnance into the sky and don't note if their missiles are actually connecting or not. A good LRM boater moves to jockey into better firing positions (clearing terrain and cover obstacles, closing to shorten flight time) and carries a few MLs to scare off frisky lights and finish stragglers in the late game.

And a lot of people have bizarre ideas on how to deal with LRMs. Saw one guy recently that said you deal with LRMs by engaging at over 1000 meters with direct fire weapons. Nevermind that most weapons can't reach that far, most of the ones that CAN reach that far are often going to do laughable damage at that range. You deal with LRM boats by closing under cover and forcing them to brawl. Forcing a Battlemaster or Stalker to forgo LRM 40 or 50 in favor of 4xMLs severely cuts down on firepower and turns all of those tons of ammo they carry into a liability.

[Modo44]

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

If this is what you think than you have never seen a well played LRM boat. Granted, most LRM boaters never actually become good, either. A lot of them simply fling ordnance into the sky and don't note if their missiles are actually connecting or not. A good LRM boater moves to jockey into better firing positions (clearing terrain and cover obstacles, closing to shorten flight time) and carries a few MLs to scare off frisky lights and finish stragglers in the late game.

This is all great until your squishy friends die because your 85+ tons stayed in cover while they locked your targets. Doubly so when there was just too much ECM and/or cover, so your LRMs did **** all. We are not talking about nimble heavies or mediums here, we are talking about Stalkers.

[PhoenixFire55]

If you load your assault with LRMs you are a liability. Period. If you load any mech with only LRMs you are a liability. The fact that PUGs are dominated by LRMs tells you a lot about the way they are played. Nothing but hiding and cowering. Did you see many LRMs during PGI tournament or any competitive drops? That should also tell you something.

[Escef]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

If you load your assault with LRMs you are a liability. Period. If you load any mech with only LRMs you are a liability. The fact that PUGs are dominated by LRMs tells you a lot about the way they are played. Nothing but hiding and cowering. Did you see many LRMs during PGI tournament or any competitive drops? That should also tell you something.

And yet in PUGs people scream about how OP they are. They are a mediocre weapon system that is situationally good. Unfortunately, LRMs have so many counters that they do not see competitive play, experienced players know how to avoid them.

An assault LRM boat is NOT a liability unless you are in a top-tier competitive environment. As for a pure (no back up weapons) LRM boat, even in a PUG it's incredibly risky (I've seen more than one game where the last guy on the losing team was a pure LRM boat getting swarmed at under 100 meters by heavily damaged opponents).

[IraqiWalker]

Here's the long and short of it from someone that actually runs different builds across different chassis variants, and weight classes:

You're both wrong, and right.

The choice of mech is the biggest factor. I personally think anyone that uses an Atlas as an LRM boat, even if they can be effective, are misusing that mech, since it will benefit the entire team 10 times more on the front line. However, I also think that anyone running the BLR-1S as a front line mech, is wasting it's potential, since it's hands down, one of the best LRM boats in the entire game.


Now the problem comes down really to LRM boating. Most people think there's one type of LRM boating. However, depending on your weight class, there are at least 4 different classes of LRM boating:

1- Light mech: You have the harassers, and the Supplementary fire they can provide due to their mobility. They are the rarest, because of our game modes, and their inability to slap large launchers on (ever seen an LRM 5 mando wreck a lance? I have, several times, it's ... both depressing, and glorious)

2- Mediums: Lurmishers, they are fire support units that can keep up with the main formation, and are probably using LRMs in a direct fire role. They rely on their mobility to maneuver their launchers and payloads to the locations that best help them, quickly.

3- Heavies: Suppressors, Even though medium mechs can do that role, they lack the tonnage to actually carry enough ammo to spend on suppression duty, which heavies can do easily, with great effect. They are definitely using direct fire, and are using LRMs mostly to keep the enemy's heads down, instead of deal killing blows.

4- Assaults: Artillery, these are the guys you call to bring on the rain. LRM 50s+ everywhere. They are too slow to always keep pace with the front line, and they will probably rely completely on indirect fire, however, they make up for it with sheer volume of missiles launched, and the terrifying weight in ammo they can bring (my BLR carries no less than 2300 rounds, and if I wanted to, it can slap almost 3000). Their job is mostly to saturate an area with as much ordnance as possible, as quickly as possible, for as long as possible. Unlike medium LRM boats, they couldn't care less about spending 2 tons of ammo on terrain and suppression shots. Not when they have 10+ more to draw on.


Now, in each weight class there are mechs that can do these roles. "Better use" is a flawed term in itself, because what's better for me, may be worse for you. I acknowledge that even while taking stock of my earlier statement. However, at the end of the day, there are certain mechs that lend themselves better to certain roles than others.

There is no problem with a stalker or a BLR-1S being an LRM boat. Anyone that disagrees with that, is flat out wrong. These mechs are very capable at this role.

The trade off, is that you need your team to give you locks, because as an LRM boat, you are signing a contract saying that my tonnage, and armor, are going to be missing from the front line, and I trade all of that for the ability to support multiple fronts, and engagements almost simultaneously.

As such, LRMs are the most team-oriented mechs and weapons in the game, and since most players are crap when it comes to supporting each other, and teamwork is almost non-existent in the solo queue, it becomes difficult.


Bottom line is: If you pick the right mech, LRMs on an assault are more than fine, they can be a boon for your team. Provided they understand the basic concepts of cover, locks, and targeting ECM mechs, and how to counter them. Without those, it becomes a gamble.

In PuGs where coordination, and cover use are quite sorely lacking in most Elo tiers, your impact is going to be felt almost every match. Unless something goes wrong and you are taken out early.

In coordinated play, LRMs become a big risk, because your opponents know how to counter your easily countered weapon.


To those that decry assault LRM boats (the appropriate ones, like Stalker and BLR-1S): If that one 85 ton mech is what you needed to separate winning from losing in a PuG match, the problem is not with that mech, or it's pilot.

When doing lance drops, and one of us decides to use LRMs, we understand how to stall the enemy team, get them into a battle of attrition, one that we can usually win, because if positioned correctly, we can wear them out with LRM fire. In PuG play the conditions are already set up that way. 99% of all PuG matches start with a 7 minute long range poke game, where LRMs get all the time in the world to soften up the enemy team.


EDIT: I apologize for the sin of forgetting the Awesome chassis as a great LRM platform.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 August 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[BigFatGator]

Sure, assaults can make good LRM boats. I've seen tons out there. However think that the LRM support role is probably better served by Heavy mechs. Effective LRM use needs good mobility and TAGing targets at 450-500m. In a heavy I can do this without committing to a melee- can poke out, TAG, fire, get back to cover as the missiles hit. With an assault I'd be too big a target for too long to do this effectively.

[Roughneck45]

The effectiveness of LRMs are more dependent on the stupidity of your opponent than your personal skill with the weapon, as well as what map you get and how much ECM is on the field.

Assault LRM boats work, but direct fire assaults are better and more lethal in the right hands.

Edited by Roughneck45, 24 August 2014 - 07:52 AM.

[Escef]

BigFatGator, on 24 August 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Sure, assaults can make good LRM boats. I've seen tons out there. However think that the LRM support role is probably better served by Heavy mechs. Effective LRM use needs good mobility and TAGing targets at 450-500m. In a heavy I can do this without committing to a melee- can poke out, TAG, fire, get back to cover as the missiles hit. With an assault I'd be too big a target for too long to do this effectively.

Have you seen how fast a BLR can go? Provided you're willing to drop the c-bills into an XL, you can easily get an ALRM50 BLR-1S to pace a heavy with a stock engine.

Edited by Escef, 24 August 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

And yet in PUGs people scream about how OP they are.

Wanna know why? Because if you stand behind a 200m tall cover LRMs don't bother you at all. Problem is, that for people who actually try to play the game and fight, like shoot people and stuff, standing behind 200m tall cover for 15 mins isn't the option. And every time you poke around cover to do smth useful you get instantly rained by 10 LRM boats on the other side, because its just you, while 10 LRM boats on your side has no intention to stick their noses out to begin with.

[Escef]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Wanna know why? Because if you stand behind a 200m tall cover LRMs don't bother you at all. Problem is, that for people who actually try to play the game and fight, like shoot people and stuff, standing behind 200m tall cover for 15 mins isn't the option. And every time you poke around cover to do smth useful you get instantly rained by 10 LRM boats on the other side, because its just you, while 10 LRM boats on your side has no intention to stick their noses out to begin with.

Ok, hyperbole does not make for a good argument. Pull yourself in and try again.

[Rogue Jedi]

an Assault should never be a meat shield, sure the Atlas excels as the vanguard of an assault, ideally you want to have a few faster Mechs (preferably fast lights) move in in front of the Atlas, then have the other brawlers move in with it, the fast Mechs draw fire and attention then run for cover, potentiality giving the heavier Mechs the enemy backs, and help prevent the enemy from immediately focus firing the Atlas to take it down too fast, once you are into brawling range the Atlas can draw a lot of attention while giving and taking huge amounts of damage allowing the other players to kill the enemy Mechs, as soon as the heavier Mechs arrive in the fight the lights start harassing. this strategy can work in several of the assault chassis.

hiding behind the Atlas (using it as a shield) is a bad idea unless you are already seriously damaged, and even then do you really want to be hiding behind the Mech half the enemy team is targeting?



an Assault can work well as a missile boat, especially the AWS-8r, BLR-1s HGN-733, the Warhawk and some of the Stalkers.

[IraqiWalker]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Wanna know why? Because if you stand behind a 200m tall cover LRMs don't bother you at all. Problem is, that for people who actually try to play the game and fight, like shoot people and stuff, standing behind 200m tall cover for 15 mins isn't the option. And every time you poke around cover to do smth useful you get instantly rained by 10 LRM boats on the other side, because its just you, while 10 LRM boats on your side has no intention to stick their noses out to begin with.

No, it's because people are impatient, stubbornly refuse to use tactics, because almost none of them know each other, and there is no trust between them, and above all else, they just want to shoot things. That last one sounds okay, until you realize, they also want to win, and not get hurt.

In higher Elo PuG play, and in group play, people can be extremely patient, and they do employ tactics heavily. THAT is why you don't hear complaints about LRMs there.

I simply hate LRMs because unlike most weapons, they have a giant stream of arrows pointing at my exact location when I do something stupid. While most other weapons fire one or two shots, that my team probably doesn't notice. Unlike the river of missiles that says "THIS GUY JUST MADE A MISTAKE"

[PhoenixFire55]

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

Ok, hyperbole does not make for a good argument. Pull yourself in and try again.

Whatever. Don't believe me go and observe, friendly mech gets narced and instantly 6-10 streams of LRMs appear in the sky. For him its the end of the match.