104 replies to this topic

[DasaDevil]

I think its more the frustration of being stuck with people that are "New" when the ELO system was supposed to prevent that.

I cant count how many times I'll have 6-7 kills, 900+ damage while the rest of my team is sub-200 and have 0 kills.

Often times, I see and say, "HEY PUSH" because there are only 2-3 mechs around the corner.. And it goes ignored. Everybody stands around behind cover not wanting to be shot. It's a bit difficult to be in a team-based game when nobody wants to play as a team and instead pretend they are 1337gooduber when all they do is sit around pushing an button every time one gets an LRM lock.

I might not be the best pilot in the world, but I've played with a group of decent players long enough to recognize holes in enemy lines and where to point the entire murder death ball for the win.

Edited by DasaDevil, 25 August 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Odins Fist]

IS there an "I" in Team or not..?? I see a lot of conflicting views within the same posts.

Solo drop.... Is it a team, or just a bunch of random people that are thrown together that will sometimes work as a whole, and sometimes not?

Is (1) pilot responsible for holding their DROP together and winning a match, or if they lose is it his or her resposibility or not?

[verybad]

Fact of the matter is that even if you don't mean everyone on your team sucks but you, if you post "We have a bad team" Then that's the way it's going to be taken.

If it's a team you're laying with more than once, you might want to say something more like "We lost, but if we did *this* in a different way (being careful not to name names) I think we might have won." It takes 12 to tango, and no single player can win a game alone. (well at least not often to make it over .500)

Edited by verybad, 25 August 2014 - 09:14 AM.

[Solaxxas]

Also yes, as I was also meant to say and forgot, it is much more productive to say what you think should be done instead of watching everyone die and then start complaining how everyone sucked. This happens A LOT. "Why didn't you push with me??? U GUSE SUCK!" ... First of all you didn't even tell us to push with you, did you expect us to read your mind?

I play as a single dropper almost exclusively, and it is amazing IMO how well people generally respond to even some direction and semblance of a tactic, I see people almost blindly following orders way more than disobeying them.

And people ignoring instuctions doesn't always happen just because they wilfully ignore them, often I notice I've missed some team messages when I've been focusing on an engagement with another mech. Theres only so many things you can really keep track of in the heat of battle. I've tried to make it a habit to check messages after a battle by pressing y, but obviously I don't always remember to do it.

I don't know, maybe the timeframe team messages stay visible should be extended, and kill/disconnect messages should be moved to their own separate message window to alleviate the problem? Feel free to suggest this to the devs with my blessing.

[Ultimax]

verybad, on 25 August 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Fact of the matter is that even if you don't mean everyone on your team sucks but you, if you post "We have a bad team" Then that's the way it's going to be taken.

For what it's worth I never type "This team sucks" or "You guys suck".


Usually I will type what went wrong, and why - especially if I had messaged that it was going to happen or gave some alternative plan.


"We lost because people kept poking their heads out and getting them shot off, instead of being patient and drawing the enemy down/out when we were up by 2 kills"

or

"Sticking together is good, sticking together does not mean attach yourself to each other's underpants so no one can move, or fire or breathe."

or

"When you have total control of the center of terra therma/big hill and you are up by a few kills you do not run out into the enemy's guns & LRMs and the giant kill box they have waiting".



It's not motivational, but sometimes it needs to be said.

[Bhael Fire]

A large problem with PUG matches is that there is nothing that lets other players know that your advice is good; there is no impetus on taking orders from a complete stranger because you have no idea what their credentials are.

"Who is more foolish; the fool...or the fool that follows him?"

[Zolaz]

Odins Fist, on 25 August 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

IS there an "I" in Team or not..?? I see a lot of conflicting views within the same posts.

If you had a bunch of guys scoring less than 200 damage then you were on a bad team. If you did less than 200 damage you didnt pull your weight and someone had to carry you. If you did less than 200 damage you didnt use your mech effectively, at all. That should be about 4 alphas or 1 good air/arty strike. If you didnt kill someone before you went down your KDR is a negative for that match.

I do make exceptions for pilots who throw up UAVs and TAG/NARC targets or carry ECMs. Especially if they also carry LRMs or are finding targets for all those LRM pilots out there. Basically, if you arent out humping the football or being a complete mouth breather you should be able to help your team get points and kills.

[verybad]

Ultimatum X, on 25 August 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

For what it's worth I never type "This team sucks" or "You guys suck".

Didn't say you did, but the OP's title for this thread does. Which just goes to show you, it's easy to take a post even here in the forums wrong, and much easier during a game to do so.

Edited by verybad, 25 August 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Ultimax]

verybad, on 25 August 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Didn't say you did, but the OP's title for this thread does. Which just goes to show you, it's easy to take a post even here in the forums wrong, and much easier during a game to do so.

Sorry I was more commenting on the thought, not that you were addressing me directly.

[Mercules]

My favorite is when someone chimes up with:

"All my teams suck."
or
"Why can't I get a good team for once."
I pipe back at them, "There is one constant to all your bad teams... you."


Yes, PuGging can lead to bad drops. Note I didn't say teams. Your teammates might be excellent and be having a bad drop. Maybe they just switched to a new mech, have no unlocks AND haven't figured out the best setup for themselves in that mech yet.

I did that several times this week as I finished off a varient and switched to a new one with different hardpoints. Had to figure out something I liked and that worked for me and it takes a few matches to be sure the build isn't what you like. Typically I do pretty bad that first match out with a new build despite going into the testing grounds and tweeking weapon grouping in there first. If it's a bad build for me I don't get better after a couple matches and I probably look like a REALLY bad player during those times.

I've also had the occasional match where I spilled my coffee right as the real fight started and I ended up more concerned about several thousand dollars of electronics, some of which also is used for work, than the imaginary game going on in front of me. Anything could have happened so give people the benefit of the doubt.

[xeromynd]

This is not directed at the OP. This is directed at anyone who fails to communicate any useful information during the match, then tries to personally mitigate their loss by announcing "bad team" in chat.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Announcing "bad team," followed by zero substance as to WHY you think this (especially in the general chat) just makes you look like an ass. What could that statement possibly offer other than a shout-from-the-rooftops proclamation that you
should feel ok about losing because the "team as a whole was bad."

• Losing (and stomps) happen to everyone.
  
• This offers zero substance on how the team [that you may very well be paired with again] can improve.
  
• Saying "bad team" means absolutely nothing to the opposite team. You look like an ass to them as well as your own team. They are reveling in their victory and higher CBill count regardless. Also winning feels good because...well....it's winning. Someone on the opposite team saying "oh my team sucked" does not make me feel like I would lose against a "better" team. Oh your team was [your definition of] 'bad'? Okay, play us again then! Fine with me.
  
• Remember that just because you did top damage in a game where you've been stomped 0-12, doesn't mean you 'did the best.' Appreciate the medium mech that was a noble distraction/bullet sponge, remember the jenner team that worked their asses off to capture the enemy base (or conquest points) before you were rolled. The atlas that soaked in fire from the enemy, in the hopes that you would all return fire and retaliate.

What you can do instead:

-Offer your team an analysis of WHY you think you lost. <<-- This is my personal favorite, I'll often say something like "we lost because we didn't communicate/split up/didnt follow orders/charged a fortified position/charged in a line...etc..etc..." This, at the very least, offers and explanation for the loss, and a suggestion for how to possibly avoid this happening again.
-Encourage good players on the 'bad team'
-Remember that sometimes, you're just going to get rolled.
-Remember that sometimes, you'll miss the fact that you have two disconnects, one TKer, and one AFK (think, before you speak)

[EyeOne]

I've been on teams that sucked. But there is no reason for me to say "You guys suck" in the chat. Will that magically make them better?

I was playing on Therma and it was 11v11. Our last guy was clearly a new person (Champion Cataphract, Arm lock and alpha'ing every time). It was him verses a Cicada. And someone on our team was just blasting this guy, swearing at him and complaining that he was too good to be playing with people like that. But in the end the new guy killed the Cicada and we won. I gave him a "nice job" not in a "everyone gets a trophy" way but just to try to encourage him to keep playing.

I don't believe in coddling new players but there is only so much you can do to correct behavior in chat. It's easier to piss them off and make them quit than it is to improve there game in the few seconds you have before the game ends. It's best just to be gracious and move on. I try to take an extra dose of patience with obviously new players. And even if they cost us the game?+1 to my "Loses" column? Oh no!

[Bishop Steiner]

EyeOne, on 25 August 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I've been on teams that sucked. But there is no reason for me to say "You guys suck" in the chat. Will that magically make them better?

I was playing on Therma and it was 11v11. Our last guy was clearly a new person (Champion Cataphract, Arm lock and alpha'ing every time). It was him verses a Cicada. And someone on our team was just blasting this guy, swearing at him and complaining that he was too good to be playing with people like that. But in the end the new guy killed the Cicada and we won. I gave him a "nice job" not in a "everyone gets a trophy" way but just to try to encourage him to keep playing.

I don't believe in coddling new players but there is only so much you can do to correct behavior in chat. It's easier to piss them off and make them quit than it is to improve there game in the few seconds you have before the game ends. It's best just to be gracious and move on. I try to take an extra dose of patience with obviously new players. And even if they cost us the game?+1 to my "Loses" column? Oh no!

This.


I had a similar match on Tourmaline, that was at the end of a long string of terribad PUG matches.

I was next to last to die, runnin gmy SuckerPunch, had elimimnated 6 or 7 of the OpFor, and there was one guy left on each team, a trashed fast mover (forget if it was a Cicada or Jenner) and our guy, in a Boarshead.

Boarshead was nearly fresh, the Fastmover had sucked a couple of alphas from me before I popped, and had some exposed internals. We are all thinking...yeah, we got this. Well, armlock happened. I was less composed than I should have been and vented on the poor guy. Dude PMs me after. New player, didn't even know about armlock. His stats seemed to verify.

I ate crow, apologized and explained the birds and the bees of MWO to him, but after another week or so, never saw him in game again. Pretty sure it was the Toxic "TryHard/CoDRambo" chat and forums that did it.

It's a game, kids. For fun. Not everyone is Pro, L33T, Comp, etc. Not everyone has countless hours to devote. Sometimes sucky matches and bad play happen. Deal with it. Move on. If you are raging at a game, it's time to take a break.

The only people I give crap to now are the blowhards and tryhards that tout their superior play and get wiped at the beginning of the match. Then the moment they open their mouth to complain about the "bads on their suck moron team", I let the little turdz have it with both barrels.

[xhrit]

Zolaz, on 25 August 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

If you had a bunch of guys scoring less than 200 damage then you were on a bad team.

In the match I posted earlier there were 7 people on my team who scored under 200 damage, and 1 who just managed to score over 200 (they got 211 damage!).

Yet we won with 27 seconds left on the clock after a 4v8 comeback.

Was I really on a bad team?

Edited by xhrit, 25 August 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Sometimes you have a bad match. Saying "We were terrible. Due props other team for playing well and driving your win" is no different than giving a gg when you win. Sometimes you lose because you played well but they played better. Sometimes you lose because you were just bad and the other team wasn't worse.

If your team lost you were part of why. "My team was dumb" is not okay. It's fair, legit and reasonable to own up to mistakes and poor play. The guy on your team with an xl stalker with lrms and no tag probably was more burden than help. You are legit in politelypointing that out. The idea that you're not allowed to acknowledge your mistakes as a team or point out particularly egregious errors is who-stroking. Cheerlead when your team plays well -congratulate great play on either team. When you play bad, hang out in the open, bottleneck on TT or otherwise botch a match there is nothing wrong with a "we were bad and our mothers should feel ashamed" comment.

Own your wins and losses, carry harder next time.

[Mazerius]

I've often wondered if Im the only one that after I die, mentally go back over the round to pinpoint where "I" screwed up, ultimately the only player you have control over is yourself. My deaths usually come down to getting greedy(going after a red mech and his buddies eat me) poor engagement choices, or simply walking around a corner into 5 enemies, still kinda my fault as I could have waited a sec to see if seismic pinged

[MeiSooHaityu]

Viktor Drake, on 24 August 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

I just had it happen last match were I commented on my frustration that I had three bad teams in a row. Of course the comeback was something along the line of &quot;Oh so its all the teams fault right?&quot; with the implication that I was claiming everyone else sucked but I was great.

The thing is, saying that your team sucks doesn't mean that the players on your team suck, it just means that your &quot;Team&quot; as in everyone actually coming together to win a match, sucked in that regard.

You can have the absolute best individual players imaginable, and if they all decide to go do their own thing running all over the map, ignoring everything but their own agendas then your team is going to suck and fail.

So try not to take things so personal when someone coments that the team sucks because obviously it did suck or you wouldn't have lost 0-12.

I know what you mean, but that is not what is implied when you say that. Even in this thread you had to elaborate so we know what you meant. There is no way people are going to understand your meaning from just..."oh great, another bad team",

I personally just try and keep that idea to myself. I just feel that it is being a better sport.

Again, I know what you mean on the forum when you explain it, but if I see a short text lime "another bad team" in game, I feel it is a poor player just making excuses.

[wanderer]

Solaxxas, on 25 August 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Just like fat shaming doesn't actually work and makes people eat even more for their anxiety, so doesn't telling people they suck make them any better. Sure, a precious couple might suck it up and strive to do better - but most wont and in fact will just throw in the towel. Most people will know they did not do good without a reminder about it. An angry response to the topical message means exactly that.

I concur with many others here, that calling out your team really only says some not very good things about you rather than your team.

Behold, the feel-good, pop-psych response. Remember, nobody's to blame because if we say you're bad, you'll have issues and never overcome the issues. Circular reinforcement of "failure is good".

Here's a lovely little bit of social Darwinism: If the player is bad, stays bad, gets told he's bad, and ends up out of play, he no longer can drop with me. If his response to "Team was bad" is improvement, it also eliminates a bad player from the pool.

Win-win. And please, don't even try the "but it'll kill the player pool" angle. PvP games never lack for fresh meat in the end if they're actually good games. And it's something I'm used to from WoW- there are the ones that end up getting pulped on battlefields while trying to make the loss sting less with excuses, while the ones that foster a harsher, critical environment produce good players.

Or, to put it easier, Horde vs Alliance in WoW, Sith Empire vs. Republic. The "bad guys" side tend to be far more critical of failure (and happily praise you when something gets done right, too- the myth of "people who say you're bad never say you're good" is a lie -and dominate most PvP, while the "good guys" try to be gentle about losses and say "but you did X right, at least!". What they did wrong is ignored and stompity stomp stomp by the "bad guys".

Call out bad teams. Call yourself out when you do it. Leave no excuses for bad teamplay, or you simply exist to perpetuate those bad teams and bad players and have no excuse to complain about getting your head kicked in by those who are willing to say "We were bad" and then do something about it.

[Bacl]

Well if you feel the need to cry out loud that '' MY TEAM SUCK!!!!!!!'' Well you kinda delegate the fault to all the other teammates. So in a way the one who has the grit scream it on the chat should also have the balls to assume what the rest of the team will throw at him.

My opinion of course.

[Allen Ward]

Viktor Drake, on 24 August 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

I just had it happen last match were I commented on my frustration that I had three bad teams in a row. Of course the comeback was something along the line of "Oh so its all the teams fault right?" with the implication that I was claiming everyone else sucked but I was great.

The thing is, saying that your team sucks doesn't mean that the players on your team suck, it just means that your "Team" as in everyone actually coming together to win a match, sucked in that regard.

You can have the absolute best individual players imaginable, and if they all decide to go do their own thing running all over the map, ignoring everything but their own agendas then your team is going to suck and fail.

So try not to take things so personal when someone coments that the team sucks because obviously it did suck or you wouldn't have lost 0-12.

True, but still it sounds pretty offensive when posted like "yet another noob team" or "no teamwork again, thank you". As much as I hate dying/loosing because everyone goes solo again - this is PUG. It's the playground for beginners (yes, noobs) and NOT the battle arena for the professional league players. I enjoy every (rare) game where the team works as a team, but the other 9 out of 10 games I have to live with the fact that 1. PGI does NOTHING to enforce team spirit and 2. this is the training grounds with enemy players. Unfortunately joining a merc unit is not what I can and want to do - I am not ging to train every Tuesday at 1900 for 2hours and drop when the unit leader calls. That is the big problem with this game. It is actually meant for such hardliner gamers that are happy to "play military" and spend a lot of time online when their team needs them to. All casual gamers are left with the very mixed bag of the PUG game, that is so badly designed that it is really hard to achieve a level of enjoyable team play.

so basically I say, it helps to criticize really stupid behaviour (in a neutral way) or make suggestions (although most people are not willing to listen to them). Calling other players "noobs" (nothing the OP did) is absolutely unproductive and only shows how immature some people are. It's a game. Games are meant to be fun. For every participant.