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Most Common "bad" Strategies Or Mistakes By Map


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#21 Wrathful-Khan

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 03:15 AM

My two cents on the capping/fighting discussion - it's entirely dependant on the size of the map, on a smaller map you're definitely better off grouping up and treating it like a skirmish. On a larger map your'e still better of having a main force on seek'n'destroy while individual lights split up and cap targets of opportunity.

In the old days when capping was faster, playing purely for cap was a viable strategy but capping is so slow and time to kill so quick that entire lances can be wiped out in less time than it takes to halfway cap a single point.

I appreciate that they increased cap time because assault matches often ended with no contact, but perhaps they should consider speeding up caps for conquest only? that would promote mobilty over raw power and really make the different game modes have a unique flavour.

EDIT: Also want to throw in about Forest Colony - The OP said that you should NEVER go water, but I completely disagree with this. I think if you start on the south side (water on left) water is baaad idea, but if you start on the other side (water on right) going water is the battle winning tactic.

Edited by Indiandream, 30 August 2014 - 03:17 AM.


#22 n r g

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:17 AM

View PostBlackhawkSC, on 26 August 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

I play group and solo, and especially with solo (and sometimes even in groups of 3-4 mans), you see some pretty bad decisions being made on the battlefield. It's not that these strategies never work, but in solo or >3 groups in a team they more often than not fail due to lack of communication.

For entertainment purposes I'd like to list my opinion of the worst mistakes of every map.

Alpine: team that starts at the lower base split off in 2 or sometimes 3 directions. Usually one going K-line, the other two lances going towards the radio tower. The K-line lance gets picked apart by the team that usually has already grouped up on the H10 I10 hill.

Canyon: The lance that starts around D2 tries to go around E3 and E4 and wrap around whereas most the team goes to C3. This isn't as bad as some other "mistakes" but is easily exploitable by a fast team that can move to E4 very quickly.

Caustic: Endlessly rotating around the cauldron c-clockwise causing the slow mechs to get left behind and shot from the back

Crimson: The team that starts around C6 D6 moves to saddle D5 and does not push through, leaving them open to LRMs, arty and jump snipers. This happens less frequently than before when the map first came out, BUT IT STILL HAPPENS!

Forest Colony: 1. Going water, especially without ECM. 2. Uncoordinated tunnel rush when only half the team pushes through single file while the rest cower in fear

Frozen City: Uncoordinated tunnel rush. Fortunately does not happen much anymore

HPG: One of the 3 lances standing still close to one of the entrances and try to snipe allowing the enemy team to close in quickly in with 2 or 3 lances and takes them out.

River City: 1. Charlie lance starting at D2 pushing forward to B2 instead of turning right, gets slaughtered by the enemy team rotating c-clockwise. 2. Water push from C2 to D4 while the enemy is camped at lower city.

Terra: 1. Most of the team going center while 4 or 5 guys decides to be "smart" and flank. Or the opposite, most flank while you're the only 3 guys who pushes an entrance 2. A flanking move without every lance gathered up first, leaving either the left most or right most lance behind

Tourmaline: Lance that starts at H4 decides to move to E7 through G5 and F6. Other two lances follow, making a long stretching single file line of mechs that's extremely easy to pick apart. If the other two lances do not follow, then the first lance is almost guaranteed to die quickly on their own.


You'd be surprised how many of those "bad tactics" actually work out when the team cohesively works together and pushes one point/enemy together.

Notice the common trend is the team usually dividing :)

#23 Wrathful-Khan

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:27 AM

View PostE N E R G Y, on 30 August 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:


You'd be surprised how many of those "bad tactics" actually work out when the team cohesively works together and pushes one point/enemy together.

Notice the common trend is the team usually dividing :)


Yeah, this thread might be more useful if people shared their "good tactics" that did work, maybe with amusing anecdotes?

For instance: One time on Crimson Strait, we started on the island side - everyone always goes straight to the top of the docks area, which is just a crossfire zone between the saddle, city, and tunnel - to me, a weak position.

So I suggested on the comms that we go over the island all the way to far city on the side (Our lance were in reasonable mobile mechs, so I deemed it feasible - the guys say "it sounds crazy but why not?"). Lucky for us, the PUGs caught wind that something was up and followed.

Once we got to the other side we were able to hit the enemy formation in the flank as they had assumed we would just take the standard position, we were able to roll them up quickly, two mechs at a time, by the time they realised what was happening and the strength we were in it was too late. We won a great victory that day.

Edited by Indiandream, 30 August 2014 - 11:31 AM.


#24 IraqiWalker

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

Terra Therma. I was driving my DWF trying to get the basics on it done (this was June 20th, I think), my lance leader (we were a 4 man), states on team chat to just let the enemy take the PuG Zapper, and we should set up on the outside of one exit. Somehow the PuGs followed his orders. It took each one being repeated no less than 4 times, but hey, it worked. we set up, with 3 DWFs (I think those 3 were the only assaults on our team, and I was the only one on my lance), I was running an ERLL LBX20s set up, and we plopped our mechs with our back to a wall, while our entire team formed a firing line around us 3, there was pretty much no room for movement, but NO ONE stood within the firing arc of our 3 DWFs (the other two were a 6xUAC5 DWF, and a pure energy, and LRMs DWF).

So, my lance leader in his quick mech, asks for two pilots by name to follow him. They do, others try to break formation, but myself and a few other DWF pilots keep telling them to stay put, and they somehow do. The 3 fast mechs (don't remember what they were, I think one of them was a 2ERLL RVN-3L.) go up to the zapper, and start prodding the enemy team. Lucky for us, the entire team chases those 3 squirrels, and start crossing the bridge, 2 or 3 at a time. Then, we opened fire. It was the most glorious firing line I had seen in a long, long time. The formation was boxed around our 3 DWFs, and they protected us while we did what Dire Wolves do best: Wreck all the things. However, we focused mostly on crippling mechs as fast as possible, so we were taking out limbs, side torsos, and legs quickly, and then switching to another target. It was like the three of us were on comms, or had a psychic connection, because we were always focusing the same target, and then abandoning it at almost the same time.

9 enemy mechs were destroyed before the last 3 decided charging over that bridge was not going to be a good thing for them. So they started running away. We still had all 12 of our mechs, and the fast ones ran them down quickly. Not a single "gg wp" came out of our team on all chat, but team chat was filled with GGs, and GJs all around.

#25 Tanar

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 10:23 AM

tera therma- charlie lance on the spawn that has it way off by themselves. and they go right putting themselves even further from the other two lances who are trying to merge in the opposite direction. charlie then complains no one supported them when they died and the rest of theam now outnumbered 12-8 soon follow because they had reservations at the PUG zapper

#26 BlackhawkSC

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 30 August 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Lucky for us, the entire team chases those 3 squirrels, and start crossing the bridge, 2 or 3 at a time.


That should be one of my common "bad" tactics. When you already solidly hold center, impatient PUGs stream out single file into an enemy firing line. Definitely not GG from their perspective.

View PostE N E R G Y, on 30 August 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

You'd be surprised how many of those "bad tactics" actually work out when the team cohesively works together and pushes one point/enemy together.


Yep they can definitely work if the team is cohesive. For example if the team can split and attack front and rear at the same time on I10/H10 in Alpine, then the hill becomes a death trap. But in 3-4 man drops and solo it rarely happens.

#27 Bigbacon

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 06:16 PM

one other thing that people need to stop doing is when the enemy team holds an important point in force STOP pushing right in to them.....go do something else.

Like the hill, so many rounds one team gets up there in force first and the other just stands around and/or rushes up and they get destroyed... or they camp down at the bottom on the road and get destroyed.

Go somewhere else, get them to come down.

Same with terra therma, one team gets into the middle in force, the other just sits there and tries to force into them through a single entrance, they lose a few and back away and then they push down in force and you get destryoed.

the worst thing as someone else said is NOT moving...you get into a spot and stop and then the other team moves in and gets into your flanks and you die. The teams that move together and push together win most of the time.

#28 Darth Futuza

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 10:55 PM

Worst thing you can do:

Not communicate with your team via chat (especially if we're talking pugs here).

#29 McMatt

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 12:13 AM

I'm new at MWO (one month). What I've noticed is that if someone takes command and guide a team, that 51 % of win. There are always pilots that don't obey (or just don't see) command. But majority will. So best thing to do is, that experienced players should take command an post general tactic in the beginning (while waiting to be dropped to fight zone).

#30 Marmon Rzohr

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:39 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 30 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

Here's why you're wrong:

Assault dominated team.

Capping works perfectly on conquest because the battlefield is mobile, the team that has the most mediums and lights will most likely win, since they can always outmaneuver their slower and bigger opponents. You go right ahead and fight that Direwolf. If it wasn't for that silly action of yours, that DWF will have had a zero damage game, and had no impact on the match, because the battlefield is all over the place, and it's too slow.

With mobile teams you want to secure an early advantage in points. Cap one or two more points than the enemy, then delay them with skirmishes and engagements. Causing them to waste time without recouping the point loss, and you are guaranteed a sure fire win rather quickly. That's if you care about winning, and not about making C-Bills. If you care about making a lot of C-Bills, why on earth are you on Conquest, go play the other two modes. Otherwise, play conquest, the way it should be played. Not Assault with more cap points.


This is also a reply to the other "cap first" supporters :D

What you are suggesting can work. But there is a very specific set of circumstances that will enable it to work, most of which are not considered in the posts made or in PUG games, in my experience.

Argumentation:
Spoiler


IN SHORT: you should fight the enemy, bloody them, and then use superior numbers to secure the match.

Another viable approach is to use light mechs seperately. NOT MEDIUMS, though. Meds can go ~100 kph, but that is still 50% slower than most lights. Don't cap in mediums unless desperate. Light mechs can wolf pack at the start and get an extra cap point and potentially kill any enemy lights trying to do the same. If you run into no enemy lights/cappers, you can return to the main force and then flank. Wolf packing is incredibly important because it makes light so much more powerful and allows them to cap fast and kill any stragglers fast.

Anything else is a plain misuse of the mechs you have on your side as mechs work best in unison.

DISCLAIMER: This is just my analasys of PUG games. Group drops are probably something else with different tactics.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 01 September 2014 - 02:43 AM.


#31 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:21 AM

View PostMarmon Rzohr, on 01 September 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

Fun analysis with a lot of truth to it.

(math is a bit off btw, mediums going 100Kph are only 33% slower than lights going 150Kph)


Ok. I have not had a single match in over a year, where killing the last straggler didn't take longer than the rest of the match did.

As for mediums capping, both arguments work, yes you rob your team of their second line mechs, but at the same time, the ones that move fast add a lot to the light mech's efforts. Don't forget, the original wolfpacks were not lights, they were medium mechs.

Keeping your team mobile, and using proper cover, can allow 5 mechs to hold off 12 for a few minutes actually. So the problem is going to be whether or not the main formation knows where to position itself, and whether or not the enemy team is loaded with chickens (usually both teams are).

I've had a few drops for Conquest, where we had a lance of 2 lights, a Cicada, and a Dragon. Most people would think we're 4 lights, only to get slapped by a dragon with Gauss, ERLLs, cicadas, and ECM lights.

#32 Marmon Rzohr

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:17 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 01 September 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

(math is a bit off btw, mediums going 100Kph are only 33% slower than lights going 150Kph)


Ok. I have not had a single match in over a year, where killing the last straggler didn't take longer than the rest of the match did.

As for mediums capping, both arguments work, yes you rob your team of their second line mechs, but at the same time, the ones that move fast add a lot to the light mech's efforts. Don't forget, the original wolfpacks were not lights, they were medium mechs.

Keeping your team mobile, and using proper cover, can allow 5 mechs to hold off 12 for a few minutes actually. So the problem is going to be whether or not the main formation knows where to position itself, and whether or not the enemy team is loaded with chickens (usually both teams are).

I've had a few drops for Conquest, where we had a lance of 2 lights, a Cicada, and a Dragon. Most people would think we're 4 lights, only to get slapped by a dragon with Gauss, ERLLs, cicadas, and ECM lights.


My mistake, I meant to say that lights are 50% faster. Either way works out to the same point.

Sure mediums can add to the skirmishing power of light mechs, but the point is if you encounter enought resistance that you need help, you can just run away, becuase that means the main enemy force will be missing several mechs and you might as well go and help your team murder them.

Which brings us to another flaw with capping in mediums. You can get killed. Lights can run away, but mediums usually can't due to the extra size and lack of speed. Think of caps like Theta in Frozen City, if a lot of the enemy drops down there and you're in a light mech, you can just bolt out of there. Any heavier mechs usually get YOLO-ed and killed.

As for 5 mechs holding off twice their number or more... er... I wouldn't bet on it in a PUG game. If the 5 mechs had significantly superior pilots, maybe. But if you have such superior pilots, the game would end even faster and even more securely if you backed them up.

I'm sure there are examples of tactics like this working, but since this is about PUG games, you have to play the numbers and in most situations and most maps stuff like this ends in disaster. You could play around that, but usually there is no telling how your team will perform until it's too late to change initial tactics. So trusting your PUGs to survive while outnumbered is usually not such a good bet. Especially if you're a good pilot - the matchmaker will expect you to do a lot of the winning.

Maybe that's a bit pessimistic of me, but hey

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 01 September 2014 - 07:18 AM.


#33 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:02 PM

View PostMarmon Rzohr, on 01 September 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Maybe that's a bit pessimistic of me, but hey


No, that's just realistic.

#34 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 01 September 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

........

Keeping your team mobile, and using proper cover, can allow 5 mechs to hold off 12 for a few minutes actually. So the problem is going to be whether or not the main formation knows where to position itself, and whether or not the enemy team is loaded with chickens (usually both teams are).

I've had a few drops for Conquest, where we had a lance of 2 lights, a Cicada, and a Dragon. Most people would think we're 4 lights, only to get slapped by a dragon with Gauss, ERLLs, cicadas, and ECM lights.


It depends on the map and the team. There are some teams that think: ouch, Gauss and ERLL, etc. There are other teams that think: woo 4 cookies. This scales up to teams that think 3 assaults and a heavy are cookies as long as they are isolated (and they are, if all 12 mechs are really on maximum aggression attack mode).

IMHO as long as caps points are below 450 on most maps most days a team that has killed a large fraction of the enemy team without losing too many can bring back the game via split and cap tactics.

I think splitting off 3 fast mechs to cap is reasonable. Splitting off more than that at game start creates more problems than they solve _most_of_the_time.

#35 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:01 PM

On Caustic, people complain about the NASCAR rotation but if the enemy has taken sniper hill you -need- to rotate and not linger. Staying around that area from the Petro Plant side is problematic as the team occupying sniper hill has all the good shot angles.

If the whales are getting left behind, IMO one thing the team can do is to execute a fast dash across the crater to the opposite corner near the rocks while suppressing the popup targets around the crater rim and sniper hill. You can do this for the short duration that the whales are exposed as they are crossing the crater floor. The other team can snipe at you but will not be able to mass fire unless they get up narcs or UAV for LRMs.

By cutting the circle, you create a shorter route for the whales, and the team can catch up with the tail of the enemy team to fight on much more favorable terrain.

#36 zortesh

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:50 PM

I'm on the side of fighting in conquest games, the side that treats it as an assault wins 99% of the time in my experience... if the enemy split to cap.. blob and charge each lance one at a time, eventually all there combat mechs are dead and your hunting lights with your lights plus lrm/sniper support, and you can easily recap and annihilate them.

If the enemy attempts to cap they lose, becuase it takes less time to kill there whole team then it does to win on caps, and ocne you outnumber them 3-1 capping them out is also very easys.

#1 camping the pugzapper on terra therma assult, the enemy can so easily just go cap your base, and you basically surrender any ability to see them doing that mvoement.

Infact fighting at in or near the pugzapper in general.

#2 counter clockwise push on every map in every game all the time... there no apparent advantage to it but it happens all the time, reguardless of where advantageous terrain is or any other factors.

Edited by zortesh, 01 September 2014 - 05:23 PM.


#37 kosmos1214

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:16 PM

i disagree if i lose in conquest its cuz no one capped all game and then try to put it all on 1/2 light/meds

#38 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:24 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 30 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

Here's why you're wrong:

Assault dominated team.

Capping works perfectly on conquest because the battlefield is mobile, the team that has the most mediums and lights will most likely win, since they can always outmaneuver their slower and bigger opponents. You go right ahead and fight that Direwolf. If it wasn't for that silly action of yours, that DWF will have had a zero damage game, and had no impact on the match, because the battlefield is all over the place, and it's too slow.

With mobile teams you want to secure an early advantage in points. Cap one or two more points than the enemy, then delay them with skirmishes and engagements. Causing them to waste time without recouping the point loss, and you are guaranteed a sure fire win rather quickly. That's if you care about winning, and not about making C-Bills. If you care about making a lot of C-Bills, why on earth are you on Conquest, go play the other two modes. Otherwise, play conquest, the way it should be played. Not Assault with more cap points.


Both sides have exactly the same amount of each weight class if the matchmaker is working, so the "more mediums and lights" thing hasn't been relevant in a while. I guess private matches might make it a thing, but we're not talking about those? Having more lights and mediums only mattered on Alpine and Terra Therma when matchmaker didn't take weight classes into account, but that era is long gone.

The fact of the matter is, getting an early advantage in points does not matter at all if your enemy is getting an early advantage in kills. Getting a 4-1 cap advantage is no guarantee of victory if you gave up 6 mechs in the process. The enemy team can always split into two forces to retake points while retaining fire superiority.

I'm not against the idea of gaining a 3-2 cap advantage to force the enemy's hand, but expending the time and resources to get a 3-1 or 4-1 is just foolish. The best way to win the match is to kill your enemy, full stop. Dead mechs can't cap points or get kills, after all. An early cap lead can certainly help you kill the enemy, but it should not be a goal unto itself.

#39 Haji1096

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:48 AM

With regards to conquest, fight or cap is map specific....depends on the size of the map and also the geometry of how the cap points are laid out. Fight maps: River City,Caustic Valley, Forest Colony, Frozen City. Cap maps: Terra Therma. Maps that can be won by both fighting and capping: Alpine Peaks, Crimson Straits, Tourmaline Desert.

The mistakes that bother me the most are when friendlies stay within LOS of a tunnel and give the enemy mechs inside a target to shoot at. Thus preventing them from coming out. Really, any mistake that involves impatience is profoundly annoying.

Edited by Haji1096, 02 September 2014 - 12:04 PM.


#40 Wrathful-Khan

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:00 PM

View PostHaji1096, on 02 September 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

With regards to conquest, fight or cap is map specific....depends on the size of the map and also how the geometry of how the cap points are laid out. Fight maps: River City,Caustic Valley, Forest Colony, Frozen City. Cap maps: Terra Therma. Maps that can be won by both fighting and capping: Alpine Peaks, Crimson Straits, Tourmaline Desert.


^^^ This guy knows what time it is





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