113 replies to this topic

[Xarian]

In a choice between these, the Timberwolf wins not so much because it's amazing, but because of how poor the Summoner is.

The Summoner has FF armor, and no Endosteel structure. As such, you're basically being robbed of 2.33 tons right there. The jump jets are all completely locked, thus robbing you of more tonnage if you'd rather not use them (unlike the Timberwolf). They also aren't worth much, both due to the JJ nerf and the fact that it's a 70 ton mech. Its omnipods also aren't very good; the torso slots don't offer much in the way of versatility (1 weapon maximum, no energy). You're basically piloting a slow 70-ton medium mech.

It has some good points, sure; the B variant arms let you do some nasty missile builds. You have a lot of visibility in the cockpit. That's about it... I'd rather pilot the Thunderbolt (the mech that it's supposedly an improvement over); at least it has torso energy weapons.

It's salvageable. Unlock the jump jets and buff up its quirks a bit, and it'd be workable.

[El Bandito]

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Do you mean when I said the only reason to drive a summoner was because you couldn't buy a TWolf? That's true man.. I mean, if you're speaking purely from the perspective of mech utility. The TWolf is a straight upgrade from the Summoner. There's absolutely nothing the summoner can do better.

Summoner can use arm mounted SRMs in a wider arc with faster aim than torso mounted SRMs of the Timbie.

Summoner can arm shield its torsi better.

Summoner has Dual AMS.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 August 2014 - 02:26 AM.

[beerandasmoke]

The extra podspace on the Timberwolf makes it superior. You can do just about anything with a Timberwolf while your pretty limited in a Summoner. I do enjoy my 2UAC5, 4ERML Summoner but the Timberwolf is a clearly superior mech.

[Darth Futuza]

Mister Blastman, on 28 August 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

But! But! Didn't you see how OP that T-Wolf was?! It killed that Summoner in one shot! ONE... SHOT!

*sigh*

*sigh* Back when ER-PPCs were worth something.

Though to be fair the other summoner also destroys the Timberwolf in one shot...

[Candid]

Preface statement: in organised team games there is no Summoner option. It can't poptart, can't brawl with its mediocre armour, it can't ECM and the Timber Wolf's LRM boat is better because it tanks like a beast and still gets to pack a few lasers with its four racks. If you're in an organised team game and you aren't fulfilling one of those roles, you dropped in the wrong mech or your Summoner is not the optimum choice...

That said, I really can't get on with the Timber Wolf in solo queue.

I'll link you the Summoner I'm using in solo-queue at the moment and try to explain why I don't take my Timber Wolf instead: http://i.imgur.com/BpU3ZwL.jpg

Here's how I think when I'm looking at the Timber Wolf: if I'm going to take it, I've obviously got to take two LRM pods. If I'm going to take two Artemis LRM-15 pods and ammo for them, then I'm already running out of slots on the torso. If I go on to take a TC-1 to further improve the efficiency of each ton of LRM ammo, plus an AMS and ammo for that, then I'm done...

I don't have the slots to make use of the ballistics hardpoint(s) so it'll have to be a medium pulse or perhaps nothing else at all on the torso. I have tank, but my front torso is ham-planet huge and I have one AMS or no AMS in a setting where shared coverage isn't guaranteed even if I chase it-- which means that despite my tank I often don't control my attrition much better than the Summoner, and my endurance might even be lower under certain circumstances!

The Summoner above has decent firepower. It's not dissimilar to a TBR, and it wants to fight at the same longish range. It has perhaps the same or one ton less ammo at the same or a higher value per ton depending on what you've got on your TBR and what you've sacrificed to get it... In terms of advantages, it has great control over its own attrition through having both jojos to make all sorts of maneuvers and escapes possible and double AMS (not to mention that it has the latter with excellent hardpoints) with a better side profile that confers a reasonable chance of protecting the torso.

With regards disadvantages, it doesn't have many other good setups and its armour doesn't last long when you lose control of your exposure. These are significant issues and I can't refute them or play them down.

Nevertheless, in my opinion the Summoner is marginally preferable in solo-queue. All it would take is a variant with endo-steel and better armour, or endo-steel and more unfixed tonnage to make it in the former case inarguable in solo queue, or in the latter case poptartable-- though still not preferable to a Timber Wolf in organised matches.

I'll still take a Hellbringer over either when that time comes.

Wow, you read all that? Thanks!

Candid

Edited by Candid, 31 August 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[Kain Demos]

I am new to this game (and thus not very good) so can not really discuss "balance issues" but I've been playing the Timberwolf so far (my favorite 'mech since MW2 in 1995) the most, about 95/5 Timberwolf/Direwolf.

The only thing I wanted to say is that you CAN get back cored, it has now happened to me twice. I run 72/20 CT and 48/16 STs but have got into poptarting/peekabo matches with CERLs/CERLPLs/CERPPCs/CGRs and LRM20s only to die with a sudden "WTF" and then a teammate says a lightmech with ECM backcored me before they could run him off.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Koniving, on 27 August 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Summoners and Timber Wolves, once you add an equal number of JJs to both and maximum armor, have less than 5 tons of available difference with the Timber Wolf being more limited due to having so many slots consumed.

That said, Timber Wolf also has more hardpoint options, something the Summoner severely lacks.

But what really decides it for me... is the hitboxes.

The Summoner has a basic, fair hitbox that is identical to the Awesome in almost every way in regards to the torsos.

The Timber Wolf has GIGANTIC GARGANTUAN hitboxes for the front, and miniscule flat panels for the rear. As a result, 2 rear, all the rest on the front... and you're now nearly invincible with more armor on the front than most 80 ton Victors would even be able to dream of....due to having to put 14 armor on the back.

What's really ironic is when a player that isn't exploiting the hitboxes makes a Timber Wolf with 14 armor on the rear... the Timber Wolf is so easily destroyed you'd call for buffs. But when you reduce the rear armor to 2, you can brawl in the middle of 8 people and still have no damage on your back while feeling incredibly powerful.

That's why I choose the Timber Wolf. Broken, risk-free rear torso hitboxes. Ain't nothing gonna touch them in an active battle. Now take those hitboxes and add poptarting...and was it any wonder these things replaced Victors?

(Timber Wolf front CT, 90. Victor front CT at best with high risk, 86. Timber Wolf front ST, 62 with no risk of a backshot death. Victor front ST, 54 and this is at high risk of backshot death).

(Aside from the Dire Wolf, this is true of all the "Great" Clan mechs, the creme dé la crop. Stormcrow is a huge offender of this; add the animation it has for speed-tweak running and it spreads laser beams across 5 different 'hitbox' sections, rendering them nearly useless due to spread; rear hitboxes can only be hit from directly behind and because it's nearly impossible for someone to get back there it's outclassing 70 ton IS mechs in frontal armor without risk).

I'm sorry, but I have to step in to disagree.

The Timber Wolf has good hitboxes, but it has little to do with rear torso hitboxes.
The difference between the angle at which you can hit the RT on a regular mech and the Timber Wolf is very small, and in my humble experience makes no difference under combat conditions.

I run less than 10 back armor on all my IS mechs as well. There is no reason not to. Nobody is going to hit you in the back if you don't give them a chance.

It's not just me either. Lots of pilots do this once they are confident in their skills. In fact most competitive builds I've seen linked or discussed had very little back armor.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 02 September 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

I am new to this game (and thus not very good) so can not really discuss "balance issues" but I've been playing the Timberwolf so far (my favorite 'mech since MW2 in 1995) the most, about 95/5 Timberwolf/Direwolf.

The only thing I wanted to say is that you CAN get back cored, it has now happened to me twice. I run 72/20 CT and 48/16 STs but have got into poptarting/peekabo matches with CERLs/CERLPLs/CERPPCs/CGRs and LRM20s only to die with a sudden "WTF" and then a teammate says a lightmech with ECM backcored me before they could run him off.

no one said you CAN'T.

What broken hit registry means,, is a lot of the time you should be, it doesn't register....but just like the Spider mech which can at times seem invincible...other times Hit Registry works..and it dies very spectacularly.

So dying twice from rear coring probably translates to at least 10x you SHOULD have died to it.

[Lightfoot]

The Summoner carries alot less weaponry, but gets no damage resistance or movement bonus over the Mad Cat in MWO. In MW4 the Summoner was a deadly brawler that moved like a snake and was tough as nails. MWO just missed the boat or skipped class when the Summoner was reviewed.

The Summoner is just weak sauce compared to the Mad Cat or any other Heavy. Don't believe me? Go look at both in Mechlab. And yes, I have piloted both.

[Koniving]

Marmon Rzohr, on 02 September 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but I have to step in to disagree.

The Timber Wolf has good hitboxes, but it has little to do with rear torso hitboxes.
The difference between the angle at which you can hit the RT on a regular mech and the Timber Wolf is very small, and in my humble experience makes no difference under combat conditions.

I run less than 10 back armor on all my IS mechs as well. There is no reason not to. Nobody is going to hit you in the back if you don't give them a chance.

It's not just me either. Lots of pilots do this once they are confident in their skills. In fact most competitive builds I've seen linked or discussed had very little back armor.

I can hit your right torso from the far left side, beyond your sight line, and vice versa.

But beyond that, I run 2 points of armor on my rear and can brawl in the middle of 4 enemy mechs doing circles around them and cutting between them... and come out with no damage on my rear.

For a comparison, take a Jenner.
Put ZERO armor on your back, and fight people while looking at them.
No rear torso damage at all. All front.
Take a firestarter. Same thing.

Now take a Commando. Wind up dead instantly.
Take a Locust. Wind up dead instantly.
Take an Awesome or Summoner, wind up dead very quickly.
Take a Victor. Die really fast.
Take a Highlander, find yourself pretty tough but still die pretty easily from behind.

Take a Timber Wolf... almost never get hurt.

[Roughneck45]

Because the Timberwolf is the most versatile and durable heavy in the game while the Summoner is a Dragon with jj's.

Im referencing potential builds with that comparison, not the giant CT. Both the Dragon and the summoner are pretty gimped on hardpoints and tonnage to work with. If only they had more energy hardpoints.

Edited by Roughneck45, 02 September 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[Chrithu]

Because the Summoner will eb available for CBills in a weeks time while the Timber will stay MC only for another 8ish weeks.

[Koniving]

On a side note... Here's a fantastic IS example of Clan mech hitboxes.

Take a Raven. Put 1 armor on each rear torso. Put the rest on the front.
Now until someone shoots your legs, feel like an invincible tank!

You'll never see another non-Firestarter IS mech tank stuff this well.






It tanks amazingly.
And that's what Timber Wolves do for those who do that with their armor. And if you put 14 armor on the rear for any of them and they are easy to kill.

On a side note... here's how to kill a TW with ease.

Around 5 mins in.
Blast legs. Laugh.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 September 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

no one said you CAN'T.

What broken hit registry means,, is a lot of the time you should be, it doesn't register....but just like the Spider mech which can at times seem invincible...other times Hit Registry works..and it dies very spectacularly.

So dying twice from rear coring probably translates to at least 10x you SHOULD have died to it.

I need to see proof Bishop, I have blasted through the Back armor of enemy TBRs and had my back armor blasted through when some light or med got behind me.

I haven't seen anything that looked like Hit Reg issue.


If anyone does have video proof of the hitboxes being outright broken, should tweet a link of it directly to russ, et al.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 September 2014 - 01:23 PM.