63 replies to this topic

[Quick n Fast]

Quote

I hope you guys screaming 'cover' do realise that contradicts what people keep preaching about pushing and not hiding

hide under ecm n ams when ur pushin...?

[Bront]

The sensors on these modern mechs are already limited (Can't tell there's a mech 10 meters behind you without a module that requires you to stand still). Nerfing it even more hurts the team game.

Indirect LRM fire has it's own set of issues. Just because the target is clear from one way doesn't mean they're clear from the other way (Objects, overhead cover, time to run, etc). The only way to allow it at all is to at the very least keep things as they are.

Requiring Narc or Tag doesn't encourage role warfare, it limits role warfare by preventing combat oriented lights from also scouting. It also hurts already fragile team cooperation in a game where you can't fire and type at the same time, and not everyone is on the same VOIP.

LRMs are fine. Folks who hug cover will need to for other reasons beyond just LRMs, and there are plenty of counters to LRMs already.

[Ph30nix]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 August 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I had to stop here. In the right situation any Mass fired weapon is a death sentence. Be it Gauss, ACs, lasers et al. As it should be when the stars align just so.

when i say right situation i mean the enemy team has a few LRM launchers (or even one or two boats) and a good spotter.
It really doesnt take much for them to go from borderline useless to "you are boned"
and take maps where the only real cover is avoiding being targeted (alpine, majority of caustic, troumaline) yes i know those maps do have some decent cover spots but not many.
someone throws up a UAV near your group and you will have LRM's raining down on you, or if a spotter gets a target.

Then it turns into not a "oh you screwed up" but a "oh sorry your the unlucky ******* who gets the rain of death"

[wolf74]

We don't have Free C3, we have Single Target Spotting which even in CBT don't need any special gear even Infantry can spot for LRMs. Now I do think a Minor change to LRM could give it a bit of flavor.

LOS fire Mode with Artemis FCS Groups of 5 Missile Randomly Locks-on to a Torso section.
LOS Mode without Artemis Groups of 5 Missile Randomly Locks-on to Section of the Mech but with 20% better chance at center Mass.
Indirect Fire mode every Group of 5 Missile randomly Locks-on to a Section of the mech. (AKA like Streaks do right now)

Edited by wolf74, 27 August 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Willard Phule]

simply changing the trajectory would go a LONG way toward fixing the problem. As it stands now, LRMs always...ALWAYS...arc up and come down. If they were closer to a straight line, then indirect fire would take a hit.

I don't know how it is in the group queue or at the top tier Elo brackets you guys play at, but down in the Derp Dungeon of the Solo queue, our biggest problem are the LRM boats that absolutely require teammates to get and hold locks for them. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not about to just stand in the open and hold locks so they can spam the air. The learning curve down here is pretty steep.

[Christof Romulus]

You guys want a real solution instead of not allowing linked targeting?

Here's one:
Linked targeting is disabled. Oh, except for all Light mechs. Role warfare solved.

You're welcome.

[Sorbic]

No, I don't think linked targets should be removed. However I would like to see a nerf to indirect LRM damage and a small buff to direct LRM damage. Maybe increase the spread on indirect lrms or, since increased spread won't help DW's much) make it so a fraction of the missiles simply fail to explode.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

If the target spotting was removed, you suddenly generate a portion of role warfare, in that TAG and Narc lights just became super valuable, more so than currently.

the other option is to make indirect fire LRM's less accurate, so increase the grouping radius to spread more damage, and for some to outright miss.
Unless Tag or Narc, in which case they get the benefits to track accurately, again giving lights with the equipment a substantial purpose to LRM play

[krash27]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 August 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I had to stop here. In the right situation any Mass fired weapon is a death sentence. Be it Gauss, ACs, lasers et al. As it should be when the stars align just so.

Gotta agree with Joseph on this one. Were you expecting foam balls to be fired at you?
They should be a death sentence if a spotter can get eyes/tag/UAV on you.

[Aresye]

TAG = A spotter designates a target and must continue designating. Any friendly units with missiles get an indication that a TAG is active. Any missiles fired that aren't locked on another target will automatically home in on the TAG.

NARC = A spotter places a narc on an enemy mech. While active, any friendly units with missiles get an indication that a narc is up. Any missiles fired that aren't locked on another target will automatically home in on the narc.
*Friendly mechs should have the ability to disable the narc by dealing a specific amount of friendly fire on the affected mech to get it removed.

UAV = UAV is pretty much good where it's at.

Besides the UAV, those mechanics for TAG and NARC worked with no issues in previous MW games. IDK why they changed it for this game, but any and all missile mechs being able to target a single mech and indirectly fire simply because one mech sees them has proven time and time again that it's very easy to abuse.

[krash27]

Wonder if these people realize its not just the enemy team that benefits from this but their own as well, they make it sound one sided.

[BumbleBee]

Christof Romulus, on 27 August 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

You guys want a real solution instead of not allowing linked targeting?

Here's one:
Linked targeting is disabled. Oh, except for all Light mechs. Role warfare solved.

You're welcome.

I had never even considered that, and I like it
Add in a few select mechs from mediums, like the Cicada and Trebuchet, that are designed as missile platforms or heavy scouts, and Catapults and Stalkers, being designed as dedicated missile platforms.

[Nathan Foxbane]

I would prefer to see a change in the grouping behavior of indirectly fired LRMs to scatter much more. Example of better scatter would be where one in five misses larger, slower targets like Battlemasters and Awesomes completely. Current behavior guarantees that even some of the low end faster moving, smaller targets (like an Adder or stock Raven) without the benefit of AMS will take 100% of a salvo with the only difference between LoS and no LoS being the tightness of hit grouping.

[Foxfire]

The change that needs to happen is with how spotting works and how fast/easy the magic dorito of doom shows up.

IMO, right now, the computer highlights enemy units entirely too easily, making any sort of real maneuvering and flanking maneuver fairly easy to spot quickly.

[xhrit]

Ph30nix, on 27 August 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Not saying LRM's are OP or anything, but in the right situation they are a death sentence to their target.

In the right situation a weapon is able to inflict death upon its target?

I would hops so.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ph30nix, on 27 August 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

when i say right situation i mean the enemy team has a few LRM launchers (or even one or two boats) and a good spotter.
It really doesnt take much for them to go from borderline useless to "you are boned"
and take maps where the only real cover is avoiding being targeted (alpine, majority of caustic, troumaline) yes i know those maps do have some decent cover spots but not many.
someone throws up a UAV near your group and you will have LRM's raining down on you, or if a spotter gets a target.

Then it turns into not a "oh you screwed up" but a "oh sorry your the unlucky ******* who gets the rain of death"

Sorry Ph30nix, But the situation you describe is fighting 101. And your examples are normal. PGI has purposely provided areas where certain weapons have an advantage! It is good game construction to give everyone a time and place to shine!

[Wild Hamster]

If anything, C3 can be made heavy enough to reduce the amount of ammo that boats carry so they have to really think before spamming

[Carrioncrows]

stjobe, on 27 August 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

LRMs could be indirectly fired without C3, without Narc, without TAG: (Total Warfare, p. 111) And as for C3, we have free C3 and more in MWO already.

And that might be fine if indirect fire was less accurate, had a greater spread (talking massive), and took a longer flight time. But it doesn't.

These rules are written for a Die roll that rolls on a missile table, in other words fire an LRM20 and between 0 and a very lucky 20 missiles would hit.

Fire a lrm 20 in MWO and 20 missiles hit.

Missiles flat out need changed.

The forums are going to be spammed day after day by people coming to the same conclusions until it is.

[terrycloth]

20 missiles hit if the stars are right. Often, zero missiles hit because of intervening cover, or because the lock was momentarily broken. Sometimes it was broken late enough (or the enemy is moving slowly enough) that half the missiles will still hit.

So it's just like every die roll, it was replaced with deterministic factors like the user's aim (or in the LRM case, positioning).

[Davegt27]

the LRM song





LOL