99 replies to this topic

[Shivus]

Pay to win is simply: can you purchase an immediate increase in power?

In WoT you can through gold ammo, though it's cost prohibitive and gold ammo won't save you if you are terrible at the game, and your team is bad. In MWO you can buy premium accounts and thus time. A premium player may have one or two more in game skills over a non premium player assuming they play for the same amount of time. If the time played is proportional to the bonus, there is no difference between premium and non premium. Those pilot skills won't save your atlas if you're terrible, abandon your team and get hounded by a pair of mediums. On the battlefield non premium and premium players are identical, it just comes down to skill and teamwork.

Comparisons to WoT are made because the games are similar. You have a mech garage with slots, and can presumably purchase more slots with real money (maybe c-bills depending on PGI). You pick a mech and are deployed to a match on a team where you have to kill all enemy mechs, or capture the enemy base, while defending yours, identical to WoT prior to the added game modes. You're going to gain experience and pick pilot skills that add small bonuses, similar to how crew skills add small bonuses in WoT. The two games are too similar to not compare.

Edited by Shivus, 22 June 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Twisted Power]

Battlecruiser, on 22 June 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

this is where they will make most of there money and this is a fabulous thing (no ****). So long as they do not put a dollar sign gateway to the competitive scene because this will stunt community growth(having to buy special ammunition and equipment because it's better- as an incentive to get you to spend real money will drive off a lot of budding competitive players as well as many experienced ones looking for a large field of competition.)

I would prob quit if they had anything like that so.

[Name48928]

Saevus, on 22 June 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

They have picked the use of "premium time" instead of a true subscription,

Well, if it were truly a subscription game, it wouldn't be F2P. But I do understand that some F2P games like STO had monthly "subscriptions". WoT had something similar (get a month of XP bonus for $14.95) but not calling it a "subscription" is just semantics. (though, I do love a good semantic)

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and they are going to offer mechs to be bought with real money.

The question is: Can you buy a mech without using real money? Premium mechs, which are identical to non-premium mechs other than the cash bonus, will likely require real cash. But other than the bonus, they'll likely be identical to the non-premium mechs. The premium tanks in WoT cannot be purchased without spending real cash and there are no non-premium equivalents (with exeptions like the premium Soviet and non-premium US Stewart).

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There are also hangar spots to buy.

I've seen that speculated by players, but I've not come across anything definite from PSI regarding that. Do you happen to have a link? Maybe I missed it.

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I have a bet on some of those mechs increasing your money per battle similar to the already implemented "founders mechs". (even with that bit of speculation thrown out, the models appear similar) If that isn't similar to the WoT model, slap me silly and call me sally.

Hey Sally. Other than the cash bonus, premium and non-premium mechs are likely identical. Again, you can't get a Lowë in WoT without spending $25 cash money. From what the developers have said regarding the Founder (premium) mechs, both premium and non-premium mechs both fill the same slots in the "mech tree" (or whatever they're calling it).

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So far as I can see, they took a good model for a game and removed the stupid "gold ammo".

I sincerely agree that MWO doesn't have an equivalent to gold ammo. But wouldn't you agree that if PSI had nothing like gold ammo in MWO, then their F2P business model would be significantly different than WoT's?

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Twisted Power, on 22 June 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

I would prob quit if they had anything like that so.

however though, on the topic of special equipment. I have no problem with them selling cosmetically different items, for example pink ppc's,dubstep lasers, or skull shooting autocannons ( I know, my creativity sucks), but this is only if their stats are exactly identical to the normal counterparts. However a model like this would highly depend on how silly the developers want to go.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 22 June 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Battlecruiser, on 22 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

however though, on the topic of special equipment. I have no problem with them selling cosmetically different items, for example pink ppc's,dubstep lasers, or skull shooting autocannons ( I know, my creativity sucks), but this is only if their stats are exactly identical to the normal counterparts. However a model like this would highly depend on how silly the developers want to go.

I surely hope they (devs) decide on 0 silly as internet mechs is gonna be serious business.

[Name48928]

Creed Buhallin, on 22 June 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Unless what you're buying is PURELY cosmetic, you're paying for an advantage over another player who has put in equal time or effort.

I'll agree with you. And then casually mention that Planetside 2's F2P business model will supposedly follow the "cosmetic only" plan. However, SOE is running it, so...

I believe I read in one of the Dev blogs or Q&As that they were leaning heavily towards the only items being exclusive to cash-customers being cosmetic in nature (paint jobs, etc). That would be nice. Though, I don't think they were including cash/XP multipliers in the "items" category.

But it did seem they were leaning towards having no mech*, weapon or module as unavailable to non-paying customers.

(*Again, assuming that premium mechs are identical to non-premium mechs other than the cash bonus multiplier.)

Edited by MinionJoe, 22 June 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[BlackVoid]

Blunty, on 22 June 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

not really - i have seen whole teams of IS tanks get flattened by batchats , its about style and you cant buy that

This is funny. Batchat is used as a scout in CWs. I'd like to see 15 bats vs 15 IS7s. I am sure you are joking.

[Covet]

MinionJoe, on 22 June 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

You're right and I was wrong. Don't know what I was thinking.

Premium mechs will likely be purchaseable only with cash. These premium mechs will likely give the player a cash multiplier on games played with that mech. These are fairly safe speculations based upon what we know about the Founder mechs.

What was crossed up in my mind was this: The Founder mechs (Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult, Atlas) will likely be purchasable in non-premium format for c-bills. So we should be able to buy the same mechs just without the cash multiplier. The info on the Founder pack mechs seems to support this.

So, you should be able to get the mechs without paying cash, but you probably won't be able to get the cash multiplier without paying cash.

Of course, all terms subject to change without prior notice, yadda yadda, boilerplate.

yes.. kinda. You are right, but I think you are mixing up terminology.

You can buy regular mechs with same loadouts as premium mechs with c-bills. But they will not have a c-bill multiplier on them. You need to spend cash to get ingame cash to buy a premium mech that will have a c-bill multiplier on it.

All it is, is a time saving feature. There might be other things they do like some gear pieces that you cannot unload, only destroy unless you spend cash. Kinda like world of tanks with some modules. It doesn't give anyone with more real money a leg up on others, but does save time for those that don't mind spending a few bucks in the game.

[Twisted Power]

Battlecruiser, on 22 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

however though, on the topic of special equipment. I have no problem with them selling cosmetically different items, for example pink ppc's,dubstep lasers, or skull shooting autocannons ( I know, my creativity sucks), but this is only if their stats are exactly identical to the normal counterparts. However a model like this would highly depend on how silly the developers want to go.

I like the idea of the pink PPC, That would be awsome.

Actually what I REALY want is... There used to be a game by sony called infantry. There was a gun for sniping and they had the GG varrient. When you shot sombody it put a green GG when you hit them and it went ChaChing!. I want a Green PPC that hits you and pastes a big green GG on the part it hit and for the hit sound to be a cash register going ChaChing! Totaly Awsome.

[Iskra]

Let me teach you people more about F2P and P2W models :



I'd like to note that I really wouldn't have a problem with games that offered a TIERED subscription or PAY AS YOU go model.

Something like "get X hours of game-play per month free, buy X amount hours more if you want it. Y amount for an unlimited amount". THAT would be option that was consumer/player friendly and offer more opportunity for casual players to play at thier own pace...and probably not have very significant negative gameplay effects.

Note that this is specificaly NOT the sort of model for what F2P games are doing. Instead they are doing a buy this ITEM for X dollars, buy this potion that makes your attacks more powerfull, buy this consumable that makes you level faster.

There is a reason for that....it's because they are not really trying to open up more options for "consumers".....they are trying to use the same sort of tactics that casino's use on compulsive gamblers or drug pushers use on addicts.

They don't make thier money off of people that play thier products for free or who spend a few bucks here and there on an occasional purchase...that's a really crappy rate of return for them. They make thier money (and target) the "high-rollers".... people that have trouble controling thier compulsuions....and they use alot of the same tactics, breaking up payments into small chunks so as not to realize how much they are spending, using points or chips instead of actual currency....and creating situations where the user feels discomfort and has an opportunity to pay to alleviate said discomfort.

In gamers case the compulsion is to "achievement".....whether that achievement takes the form of aquisition of vanity items "Look at me I have the rainbow colored pony".....the aquisition of power "My attack power is 10 points higher then yours, I'm level 50 now and I got there into two weeks...you're only level 40 and it took you a year" or the aquisition of status/recognition "I beat dungeon X, I gained Trait/Deed Justice 7"

Although in many (not all cases) it MAY be possible to achieve the same without a purchase... they designer makes it painful/unpleasant enough to do so....that the user who suffers the compulsion will pay to alleviate that pain/discomfort and get the reward immediately (or at least very much more quickly).

The reason why this mechanism is so disturbing is not just that it preys upon the weak but that it is very much the anthisis of what "Games" are supposed to be about....which is achievement is the measure of a players performance.....not the measure of how much they are willing to spend...or their lack of self-control.

That's why pretty much all the F2P games....including the Freemium ones..and even P2P with item shops are "Pay to Win"..... It's just that some of the people paying define "Winning" as aquiring a rainbow colored pony, instead of beating another player in a duel.

IF this model really were about giving consumers more options and allowing a larger audience to play......then they would be selling play time directly...and in different packages.....rather then selling things that aquire time/effort/grind/work to aquire....or in some cases simply aren't availble inside the game at all. It's because they are NOT making money off people who simply enjoy playing...they are making money off of people who enjoy (or have a need for ) WINNING

Edited by Iskra, 22 June 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

the real way to rake in money in my opinion as a basement dwelling neckbeard is customizability. In the age of social media, and people expressing themselves as unique little flowers, telling people they can customize their mechs and be different is a great way to draw players. However the main logistical issue of this is, how do we allow players to be unique while keeping bandwith usage down? or more importantly, if we allow players creative control, how will we keep out the inevitable flood of nakey time skins?

Edited by Battlecruiser, 22 June 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[illyrian]

The latest update just added more pay to win tanks and one I saw was a TD like really. Guess they just don't care anymore.

[Fear Radick]

Shephard, on 22 June 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

While I understand that WoT is popular, MWO closest analogue will undoubtedly be Chrome Hounds.

PvP based, Factional Warfare over a persistent world-map, wherein the faction players drop into instanced battles for control of the border regions between them. You take your mech (which you have designed yourself with a very in-depth mechlab) into the battle with the dual objective of either capturing the enemy base or destroying all opposing mechs. After the battle is over you receive payment depending on whether you won or lost and then you to pay to repair and re-arm your mech before the next battle.

This can be used to describe either game pretty accurately. Any other ChromeHounds players will know exactly what I mean.

Umm, i think that the closest comparison to mwo is not WoT or chromehounds, it's battletech. Right? :-P

[Vyviel]

[Fear Radick]

Vyviel, on 22 June 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

You know, battletech MPBT, battletech 3025 anybody?

[The Crow2k]

Shivus, on 22 June 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Pay to win is simply: can you purchase an immediate increase in power?

In WoT you can through gold ammo, though it's cost prohibitive and gold ammo won't save you if you are terrible at the game, and your team is bad. In MWO you can buy premium accounts and thus time. A premium player may have one or two more in game skills over a non premium player assuming they play for the same amount of time. If the time played is proportional to the bonus, there is no difference between premium and non premium. Those pilot skills won't save your atlas if you're terrible, abandon your team and get hounded by a pair of mediums. On the battlefield non premium and premium players are identical, it just comes down to skill and teamwork.

Comparisons to WoT are made because the games are similar. You have a mech garage with slots, and can presumably purchase more slots with real money (maybe c-bills depending on PGI). You pick a mech and are deployed to a match on a team where you have to kill all enemy mechs, or capture the enemy base, while defending yours, identical to WoT prior to the added game modes. You're going to gain experience and pick pilot skills that add small bonuses, similar to how crew skills add small bonuses in WoT. The two games are too similar to not compare.

That is not pay to win at all. Pay 2 win is buying a direct unfair advantage over free players when used against them. IE: Gold Ammo in WoT.

For example Buying a tier 8 tank in WoT is not paying to win, its paying to skip the grind to tier 8 and as a bonus you are getting a lifetime credit earning bonus. Neither of which gives you a direct advantage over other players during gameplay. Sure earning more credits might mean you can advance faster than another player but in WoT this is not important because as you advance you keep on facing higher and higher tier opposition. So sure you can start a WoT account today and buy a Lowe (thought you will probably suck with it) and go straight to tier 8 battles, but that doesnt give you a direct advantage over me if I started playing today because I will be playing tier 1-3 matches and you will be playing tier 7-10 matches. The tanks like Lowe, KV 5 etc are generally not better than the ones you need to earn the old fashioned way, Upgraded Tiger II is better than any of the tier 8 premiums IMHO. They did make a huge blunder with the type 59 making it better overall than every other medium tier 8 but they have nerfed it now.
However if you use gold ammo on day 1 in tier 1-3 matches with me then yes you have an unfair or pay 2 win advantage.

Thankfully in WoT Gold ammo is grossly over priced and doesnt see much use in regular games (It turns up a lot in clan wars now though) andeven then its stats in penetration and HE damage are still lower than the specialised AP and HE ammo on their own, all it does is combine favourable properties of both. I dont use it as I said its overpriced but IMHO its not the massive advantage (its still an advantage though) that so many people think/claim it is.

Edited by The Crow2k, 22 June 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Aidan Malchor]

You want to see pay 2 win at it finest give APB or Battlestar Galactica Online a go. Then you'll look at WoT and be like, hmmm not so bad I guess.

[Mechbeth]

The Crow2k, on 22 June 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

That is not pay to win at all. Pay 2 win is buying a direct unfair advantage over free players when used against them. IE: Gold Ammo in WoT.

For example Buying a tier 8 tank in WoT is not paying to win, its paying to skip the grind to tier 8 and as a bonus you are getting a lifetime credit earning bonus. Neither of which gives you a direct advantage over other players during gameplay. Sure earning more credits might mean you can advance faster than another player but in WoT this is not important because as you advance you keep on facing higher and higher tier opposition. So sure you can start a WoT account today and buy a Lowe (thought you will probably suck with it) and go straight to tier 8 battles, but that doesnt give you a direct advantage over me if I started playing today because I will be playing tier 1-3 matches and you will be playing tier 7-10 matches. The tanks like Lowe, KV 5 etc are generally not better than the ones you need to earn the old fashioned way, Upgraded Tiger II is better than any of the tier 8 premiums IMHO. They did make a huge blunder with the type 59 making it better overall than every other medium tier 8 but they have nerfed it now.
However if you use gold ammo on day 1 in tier 1-3 matches with me then yes you have an unfair or pay 2 win advantage.

Thankfully in WoT Gold ammo is grossly over priced and doesnt see much use in regular games (It turns up a lot in clan wars now though) andeven then its stats in penetration and HE damage are still lower than the specialised AP and HE ammo on their own, all it does is combine favourable properties of both. I dont use it as I said its overpriced but IMHO its not the massive advantage (its still an advantage though) that so many people think/claim it is.

Well said, with over 6000 battles in WoT, quite few clan war battles, and lots of friends, nobody I know uses Gold ammo in pub matches. Because it just adds penetration, not worth it for scrub/pub matches. Its very expensive and is only for extreme competition. A good player knows where to shoot and pen anyways.

And honestly. All this Free2Play crap makes me ill. These people spend years of thier lives writing code and all the production costs that acrue, need to earn a living. So its either a monthly subscription, or ingame incentives for gamers to spend hard cash. I have no problem spending on things that increase my enjoyment of a game. The guys who want to play for free and complain about unfair advantages, well.... spend a couple of years of your life working for peanuts, then come tell us how you feel about your work not generating a salary when completed.

That being said, few games in the mainstream have paid advantages. I'm not even worried that MWO will be one of them.

[Primarck]

Played Chromehounds, and loved it. It filled the Battletech void for me for a good bit. Sad they took the servers down, or I'd probably start playing it again because this is pumping me up!


P.

[Outrider01]

WoT is terrible. Mid tier tanks like the Sherman or PzIV are junk, as 90% of the population prefers to drive top tier tanks and there is no mid tier only match set you got 450 hitpoint pinatas that will usually face tier 8 heavies and it only gets worse as 6/7 get dragged into tier 9/10. Sure, a mid tier 5-7 tank may be able to damage a top tier tank for 5% of its hitpoints with HE if it doesn't bounce but then the top tier 8-10 will just point-click you with the mouse as their guns have double your armor pennetration (sherman 70mm vs a 200mm pen gun...right and pretty much leave the tank a smoking wreck. In the end, the mid tier tanks are just pointless and a waste of time since 450 hitpoints is less then 1500 hitpoints and the human mind is always...bigger punching bag is better. Hopefully MWO doesn't go that way, if you want to play a medium mech and they have medium only brawls so you don't stare at assaults all day.