49 replies to this topic

[Pika]

So I'm posting this in here because it relates to a few new player's experience over the last day or two.

I somehow managed to convince a few friends to download the game and check it out! Initial response was positive, though with the majority being young students there was the usual complaints about the cost, but we all know how that plays out so I won't go into it here.

Anyways after they get their 25 games under their belts they ask for a group game, and so I warn them what it'll be like but all the same they insist, so we jump into games together.

Never have I seen enthusiasm dashed so quickly. It went from "Hey this is cool!" to "We've lost 8 games in a row. This sucks." Now I get I warned them and tried to explain that you go against groups, I get they're all brand new and no matter the rest of the team, they can't really carry so many newer players, and you know, they accepted this, but also I think they were not expecting, as a group of 5, to go up against a pre-made group of 12 same guild Clan Mechs all moving as a single blob.

No matter what I said it felt like the damage was done. Will there ever be a method of queuing in sizes introduced? If I want to play with one other friend should it be fair that I run the risk of running into 12 guys all on voice comms?

Thanks for the feedback guys!

[Theaus]

I've been thinking about buying just a day of premium time and then bring in a few new players and convince one of them to get a day of premium and then set up small 1v1 2v2 etc private matches. Admittedly complicated but still something to consider

[Darwins Dog]

I don't think that there will ever be a good balance between small and large groups, which is quite unfortunate. With the limit at four, there were groups of 5-11 that felt left out, while the 4s had, some would say, too much influence on their games. Now the system avoids those problems, but means that group matches are at a higher level of competition.

I don't know what the solution would be. If you make a casual queue it could be abused by skilled players looking for easy pickings.

[Rogue Jedi]

I completely understand where you are coming from, however I have trouble seeing a way to make this work outside of private lobbies (or free options for 4, 8, or 12 man teams), here is why.

as things stand in the group queue if you drop with 2, 3 or 4 players you stand a fair chance of being paired up with a 10, 9 or 8 player group, and potentially a 12 man on the other team, however if the 2-4 mans were put in a "small groups" queue the "larger groups" queue would have trouble finding full teams, and this would probably lead to a limit of 5, 6, 7 or 12 players for the large group queue.

If having newer players in your group guaranteed going into a "newer players" group queue you could get some unsportsmanlike experienced players (hopefully not many but likely enough to be a problem) deliberately teaming with mostly new players to manipulate there stats and increase their earnings.

[SethAbercromby]

We don't have enough players for 3/3/3/3 or Elo matching in the group queue as it is. Spliiting it further into group sizes would just make it worse and it would probably fall completely along the sidelines, just like original 12 man group matching, with only a handful of dedicated players hoping to find something after minutes of waiting.

Unfortunately, with multiple newcomers under your belt, you're really handicapping the other players you're dropping with. A single player that has no idea what he's doing can put the entire team at a disadvantage. Multiply that by adding more inexperienced player, even on verage sligtly better than the worst case and you've got a recepie for disaster. And if I take from your "Group of 5", that you're actually dropping with 4 newcomers? You'd need almost godlike allies to pull that disadvantage up, sorry to break that to you.

If you're alone with multiple new people, you can't be everywhere at once. Unless you intend to teach them by throwing them to the wolves (best way to lose the majority of them right after the first day), you'll have to be able to guide and actively give them advice as they play. You can only process that much information it you yourself ae not that experienced, so I'd defenitely reccomending teaming up with people on the Teamspeak servers and not drop with 5 people, but say 7 or 8. At that point, having more new players tends to be less of a problem. First, active advice is easier, as not a single person has to watch out for every detail, second the more the merrier holds true. Friendly competition increses the entertainment and people are much less focused on winning, as they are on having fun.

Newcomers tend to not notice the entertainment benefit of friendly group drops when playing with only one person that atually knows what is happening and they tend to get caught up focusing on the losses and feel like the game is not rewarding them for play, or conversely punishing them for not knowing everything off the bat.

This game strangely teaches you the best when you can manage to get into a relaxed atmosphere with your group members. Being able to joke off bad games and celebrate well-executed moves makes playing feel more rewarding and players tend to be much better at picking up on their own mistakes.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 27 August 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Koniving]

Makes me wish ELO had some participation in the group queue at the very minimum.

And that's even with as lacking as it is because unlike other games which use ELO that have it modified to include a plethora of parameters such as equipment, number of plays of X, K/D, time to each kill, etc, PGI's ELO is strictly win/loss and nothing else.

Sorry to hear about your luck. What I might suggest is each person having a mech that can support each other. I know working as a team is great, but first the lance of 4 must be able to work independent of everyone else and sustain itself. Say an LRM boat, brawler/LRM tank, and two support mechs is a typical setup that works well.

Support Lance: Close Quarters.


Support Lance: Long range.

[Sahoj]

+1 on Kon's post.

Small groups of 2-4 with high group synergy. You may also consider using medium and light mechs and leave the heavy hitters to the larger/more coordinated groups.

A friend and I (admittedly, not new) played in the group queue with two HBK-4J's and alerted the team that we were LRM support. We had a very good time and a roughly even win/loss ratio.

[Chadamir Fitzkrieg]

This is something I've been advocating for a very long time. Why can't we have 4v4 or 8v8? not just 12 v 12 every damn game. It makes for a very unfriendly atmosphere for new players. If ELO actually had an impact on who plays in the game then you'd be able to have 4v4 newb games. Let them learn the ropes without being slaughtered time and time again by people like me who have more than a thousand hours put into this stupid game. The developers make this game just so difficult for new players to join and enjoy,

[IraqiWalker]

What OP is complaining about has been something that the solo droppers and smaller groups were complaining about back when 4 was the largest group size other than 12.

I agree that the game is brutal, but if you want people to play in a group, sadly baptism by fire, or getting them to drop with a big group (there are literally dozens upon dozens of groups that would love to drop with new players), are the only two ways.

[Mechteric]

I would love to see a 4v4 solo queue (and a separate 4v4 group queue too), that would be EPIC. Team deathmatch only of course, 10 minute time limit too maybe.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 27 August 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[JC Daxion]

I'm all for bringing smaller groups back into the solo drop cue... Put a group on each side, and then put the rest soloers.. Or something.. I grouped a few nights, with other people that know how to play.. didn't even come close to winning a match all night. Makes PUG hell night seam like a cake walk..

I hear the 12 person groups say, if we do that it will take to long to find groups.. Well being someone's fodder is no fun either, so most people won't even bother with grouping as it is now..

For me if the 12 man is taking to long, break up into two teams of six.. Might have to beat up your friends all night, but maybe that would be more fun.. unless your idea of fun are 12-0 rolls all night.


though as i always say,.. Get keyboard command macros, or In game VOIP, and a ton of the issues go away

[Gunboat2305]

Ok PGA this is why I will never tell my friends to play this game you **** ed up group que.
And here is how you fix it groups of 2 to 3 can chose to opt out of group que so That noob can play with friends in pugs and maybe 3 man pros won't hurt pug drops then 4 man groups are set to drop with group or pug ques only option is to go group drop only
Any number higher than that is group drop only

I will not try to get others into this game till you fix it and this man tells the truth and makes the point Iv been meaning to make thx you good sir

[Tarl Cabot]

If you think about it though with their expectations, how many FPS games do not have respawns? Even if they die lots it is not as final as a MWO match.

I would suggest that new players, with low Elo, when grouped with a similar low Elo/new players and have an overall low Elo average, be filtered into the pug queue.

[Modo44]

A 4-man can ROFLstomp solo players hard. It was the main reason for separating the solo queue. The solution other games use, is limiting all groups to a small percentage of the entire match. Never have more than a 4-man in public (!) 12v12, basically. It would be trivial to allow any setup in private matches only, if PGI understood that it is getting players either way, and it is not some magical separate cost.

Edited by Modo44, 27 August 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Gunboat2305]

Well it works fine In world of tanks to do multi groups what they need to do is number them and even them so you could see now this is for 4 man's only or lower so people could see ok alpha is a 4 man on 1 team and beta is a 4 man on the other team but in pug drops groups need to be on a 1 to 1 base.

[Gunboat2305]

And I have grouped dropped so as not to be the jerk who dose not know what he is talking about and I will say I do not and will not do group drops till they fix this because if your not a 12 man in group you are all ready at a disadvantage and I'm not going to get my friends into this game so the can be cannon fodder for 12 man's

[RavenKnight86]

Wow I see way too many replies that are basically "LOL tough, get on comms and in bigger groups" What the OP is saying is he has a group of friends that are relatively new to the game that he decides to show the ropes to and his 5 man group is going up against very organized groups. He (or she) is making a point that this community (which I believe many hardcore community members will say is a very niche and small community) is losing about 4 possible new members due to continue ROFLstomps. If this game is to have any long term success there needs to be a way for new players to group in various sizes and play in groups of 5+ without running into the competitive teams who continually stomp them. As is 5 friends decide to download this game, group up, run into these organized teams and get to be cannon fodder. If you were on that side of things would you continue to play this game or quit?

[SethAbercromby]

TitanTwo, on 27 August 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

Well it works fine In world of tanks to do multi groups

It works in WoT, because they have a significantly larger playerbase (and significantly lower average player skill level) and cause the same problems as they would do here in MWO. One good group can roll over a team with very high efficiency, if it weren't for the massive amounts of penalties good players get (I wish I was kidding), which is an absolutely horrendous design choice. It doesn't matter how it's done there as done here, it would cause the very same issues.

And really, how often do you really meet a true 12-man? Think what might be more likely. A 6-man, a 4-man and a 2-man? Each group using VOIP to coordinate themselves internally. Suddenly the need is not to coordinate 12 individuals, but rather 3 groups, each acting as a single entity. They can appear to act in harmony, but what really happens is the groups respoding to the choices of their allies and using their internal communication to call the shots and focus their effort. The 2-man might feels a bit left out of the loop, as less information is available compared to the other two, but just by sticking with them and adapting to their play, they can integrate near seamlessly.

That is the true power of the group queue. Learn to wield it and dropping with any group size can be very rewarding and enjoyable.

Also, when you bring people in, you have the responsibilty to act as their mentor. Give them feedback as you observe their play and explain them how to improve that way and generally help them get over the first few overwhelming defeats by making their first mistakes by being a good sportsman about it and offering constructive feedback.

[SethAbercromby]

RavenKnight86, on 27 August 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Wow I see way too many replies that are basically "LOL tough, get on comms and in bigger groups" What the OP is saying is he has a group of friends that are relatively new to the game that he decides to show the ropes to and his 5 man group is going up against very organized groups. He (or she) is making a point that this community (which I believe many hardcore community members will say is a very niche and small community) is losing about 4 possible new members due to continue ROFLstomps. If this game is to have any long term success there needs to be a way for new players to group in various sizes and play in groups of 5+ without running into the competitive teams who continually stomp them. As is 5 friends decide to download this game, group up, run into these organized teams and get to be cannon fodder. If you were on that side of things would you continue to play this game or quit?

It's impossible to cater to everyone. First problem: the community is rather small and very focused, which transaltes into a fairly high average skill, significantly beyond of what most games offer. It also causes immense problems when you start dividing it into different segments, as you further narrow down the number of players significantly. Second problem: Once you start making exceptions, where do you stop? I get where you are coming from, but there is no real way to properly filter the good from the new. The Elo rating is a joke and newcomers are the butt of it.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 27 August 2014 - 09:53 PM.

[RavenKnight86]

So instead you lose 4 potential members to ROFLstomps?