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Why You Should Play Public Test - Feedback


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#41 Ultimax

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:34 PM

View PostMizeur, on 27 August 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

The problem is the faction not the chassis. Clan pulse lasers are a completely different animal than the Inner Sphere versions. Then when you factor in Clan pulse lasers + range modules (without heat penalty) + targeting computer = almost Clan ER laser with more damage and close to I.S. beam duration.


The cLPL is a heavier, longer beam duration IS ER LLAS with shorter range that gets 2.8 extra damage for staying on target longer. There is no problem with this weapon, it's not a Large Pulse Laser at all, the IS LPL and cLPL are completely different weapons and any relationship they have is visual & auditory fx and name only.


View PostMizeur, on 27 August 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Even the Inner Sphere ER Large Lasers don't compare.


Really? Mine are 1 ton lighter.

With a shorter beam duration and better range.

#42 GaussDragon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:38 PM

I find it hilarious that two years later, the PPCs have come full circle and are back to the speeds and heat levels they had in closed beta when hardly anybody used them.

Oh, and the jump jets have been nerfed back to levels similar to what they were in closed beta (when only lights used them).

I have to say this frankly: your balancing schema is simply rudderless.

Edited by GaussDragon, 27 August 2014 - 06:48 PM.


#43 Tezcatli

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:42 PM

Eager to see whatever balance changes they make. Bad or good. Just as long as they keep working on it.

#44 wanderer

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:43 PM

View PostStonefalcon, on 27 August 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

The IS had an effective counter to the Clans before PGI removed it.

Dragonbowling!!


It was an effective counter to Paul, therefore it had to be removed.

There were alternative solutions to a half-baked attempt to balance Clan vs. IS 1:1 that could have gone in.

You could have tiered 'Mechs instead of strict L/M/H/A, giving you more divisions to split your Clanners into.

You could have simply never allowed Clan to mix with IS in teams, the same way mixtech isn't allowed in specific chassis- and then balanced TEAMS against each other.

Instead, we got this.

A "test" where the variables are as obfuscated as possible. Gonna be amusing.

Edited by wanderer, 27 August 2014 - 06:46 PM.


#45 soapyfrog

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:53 PM

Please just tell us what is changing so we know what to test :)

#46 lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:57 PM

"Well here it is, on the test server and ready for you to test. I am going to avoid telling you any of the details of what has changed."

So is this a double blind test, or a psychological test? When did we go from "MW:O" to "Wisconsin Card Sorting Test?"

I can tell you right now, I'm not very good with the whole "What do you see?" Rorschach bs.

#47 A L T S

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:57 PM

Leave weapons alone. Make the side torso destruction of clan mechs slow down the mech, (Like a leg, but.... 50% maybe? No idea on a number, just threw that out there).

I am all for total destruction, like IS XL engines, but some think that is too drastic. Tweak 1 thing instead of all the weapons.

Edited by A L T S, 27 August 2014 - 06:58 PM.


#48 MauttyKoray

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:10 PM

Wasnt the reason the clan AC/LBX were heavier is because theyre supposed to be a single weapon able to switch between the ammunition but pgi hasnt coded a feature in to do that yet? Been a while since i read that so sorry if im wrong.

#49 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:14 PM

Nerf Clan XL engines before any more weapons are affected. That's how I'd do it, anyway.

#50 Navid A1

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:17 PM

um... can't the weapon stats be extracted from the game files?
why the secrecy?

#51 Keyman1848

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:18 PM

View PostPraetor Knight, on 27 August 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

I hope that fixing Heat Capacity will still be on the table before further weapon changes go into effect (and Heat Scale Penalties can be tweaked also after fixing Heat Capacity).

I really feel that this can work well (and I can wait for the ability to dump ammo to just fix the cap): Posted Image


This highlights an essential part of Battletech - properly handling the effects of high heat. Right now you shut down and get damage from ghost heat. Not a good approach

Edited by Keyman1848, 27 August 2014 - 07:27 PM.


#52 Koniving

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:21 PM

View PostMizeur, on 27 August 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

They'd still have to balance the C-LPLs and rebalance the C-ERMLs and C-MPLs. There needs to be some downside for slapping a 50-70+ point alpha with an effective range between 400-700ms on the Timber Wolves. They can get off more than one alpha before having to worry about heat. Even if you twist, that's a fair chunk of armor gone.


We call this severely overtaxing ghost heat.
Of course, PGI needs to stop using ghost heat and lock a 30 to 60 threshold. MW4 had 60 threshold, MW 3 had 30 threshold, MW 2 had 40 threshold, MWO's current highest with double heatsinks thresholds while still carrying 1 ER PPC (both sides) are:

Inner Sphere
Cooling Rate : 6.70 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 114.89999999999998

Clan
Cooling Rate : 7.50 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 123.29999999999998

Considering that lore thresholds are 30, and that in MW4, the worst balanced mechwarrior game in the history of the franchise before MWO, only went up to 60... tells us something is horrifically wrong here.

10 DHS and 20 SHS should only take 15 seconds to cool a mech down. That requires a threshold of 30. It will take 30 seconds if that's 10 DHS or 20 SHS on 60 threshold. Either way, that significantly limits how much firepower can go downrange at once and gives us a rapid time to shut down.

30 would be incredibly limiting to the point that pinpoint damage would suddenly disappear from the radar, because you could only get away with 7 ML and you'd not be able to fire again for 12 to 14 seconds unless you did chain fire! One PPC? 33.33% heat! Two ER PPCs and a Gauss, Clan or IS? BAM! Shutdown. Wait, what if you just dropped the Gauss? 2 ER PPCs? BAM! Shutdown. Wait, 2 ER Large Lasers? With the canon heat value, 80% heat.

Would ANY of this b.s. balancing be necessary? Nope. Not at all.

Ghost heat or as the proper term is, heat scale... is nothing more than a "bandaid" that tries to replicate what a 30 threshold would allow. 6 ML? Only because of 30 threshold, it's the maximum safe amount you could fire without serious risks. 2 LL? Welp... 2 LL is 16 heat lore-proper, not bad but it's still above the tabletop shutdown threshold until cooled. 2 ER LL though is in massive suicide territory. LPLs? Technically these are laser machine guns doing many shots to get X damage for X heat in X amount of time... But in MWO's form, welp 2 LPL = 20 heat just like 2 PPCs, regardless of which team you are. And they do less damage in BT than they do in MWO (9 and 10, versus 10.6 and 11.8 in MWO).

2 AC/20s? 14 heat (instead of 12 + ghost heat as in MWO). The irony? With 10 DHS or 20 SHS and 30 threshold, 2 AC/20s will in fact shut down (at the rate of 4 seconds between each use) in 8 seconds if moving while shooting. That's 3 firings of twin AC/20s OR UAC/20s, "ultra mode" or not.
With ghost heat? You shut down in 3 to 4 uses. Sound familiar?

Ghost heat tries to mimic 30 threshold without actually giving us that restriction, and so we have hundreds of loop holes that let us b.s. the system.

(Edit: Just adding since I've been pulled back here with a like).
On the Nova specifically with its massive amount of lasers...
In MWO we can fire 6 of them without ghost heat. With ghost heat before the viscious boost in Ghost Heat, we could alpha strike once and shutdown for a fraction of a second. Now we alpha strike once and bam, it's likely to explode.

With 30 threshold...
Nova Prime before cooling is applied, 1 arm would shut it down. 6 ER ML? 5 heat each. 5 * 6 = shutdown, without even moving. It would be absolutely mandatory to fire it in spurts of 2 to 3 lasers at a time, and even then it's an accident waiting to happen. As its own Sarna page and Card states: "A mech that can't possibly support its loadout."

After cooling is applied. 8 ER ML fired across 10 seconds at 5 heat each - 18 DHS cooling at 3.8 heat per second = 4 heat remaining.
Breakdown:
0 seconds (start). Fire 2 ER ML. + 10 heat (33.33%)
1 second. Cool 3.6. = 6.4
2 seconds. Cool 3.6. = 2.8 (9.33% heat) Fire 2 ER ML +10 heat (2.8 + 10 = 12.8 = 42.67%)
3 seconds. Cools 3.6. = 9.2.
4 seconds. Cools 3.6. = 5.6. Fire 2 ER ML + 10 heat (15.6 = 52% and level 1 shutdown risk and ultra minor risk of ammo explosion in proper BT.)
5 seconds. Cools 3.6 = 12. (40% heat. Safe, but still not safe to actually fire in BT.)
6 seconds. Cools 3.6 = 8.4 (28% heat).
7 seconds. Cools 3.6 = 4.8. Fires 2 ER ML + 10 heat (14.8 = 49.33% heat).
8 seconds. Cools 3.6 = 11.2 (37.33% heat)
9 seconds Cools 3.6 = 7.6 (25.33% heat)
10 seconds. Cools 3.6 = 4 (13.33% heat).

Notice only at one point did we even breach 50% heat, and this is with 30 threshold and technically, with virtually the same cooling as we get in MWO after elites.
(18 DHS tabletop: 3.6/sec cooling, 30 threshold.
DHS in MWO before elites: Cooling Rate : 3.12 heat/sec Heat Threshold : 61.2
DHS in MWO after elites:Cooling Rate : 3.59 heat/sec Heat Threshold : 73.44
(If it had 17 DHS instead of 18, it'd be higher than tabletop cooling).

The principle idea of the Nova was not 'zomg lets boat lasers for one shot kills', it was 'lasers are easily destroyed by a critical hit and some weapons (both Clan and Inner Sphere) can crit 3 weapons in a single blow. Lets have some redundancies just in case so we won't be neutered in a single shot."

(I mean crap, if you seen how frequently I thru-armor-critical players in Megamek, you'd carry a dozen backups as well! Had a one-shot cripple on an Annihilator's gyro with a single Gauss Rifle in a Hollander [35 ton], the Annihilator actually destroyed itself trying to get back up. That just messed it up rather than destroy it. Against a Hunchback, one-shot the AC/20 into destruction with a Gauss Rifle. Had an AC/20 destroy 2 SRM launchers and a medium laser in a single shot [armor was bare]. That's why Novas carry so much; not "derp Alpha! dead. Derp.")

Edited by Koniving, 27 August 2014 - 10:01 PM.


#53 Sandpit

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:39 PM

View PostGaussDragon, on 27 August 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:


I have to say this frankly: your balancing schema is simply rudderless.

That's the entire game. Look at the history of balance in MWO. It's all based on PGI's "current" target audience. That's why we constantly have the large swings in direction and philosophy we have here. Whoever they think is bringing in the most money at that particular time is going to be who's catered to.

It used to be groups
then it was "new players" (3pv)
then it was the twitchy stompy me shoot everyone crowd
now it's the "few competitive players we talked to"

View Postsoapyfrog, on 27 August 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Please just tell us what is changing so we know what to test :)

they aren't going to do that because the last time they did that, they asked for feedback, when they had no intention of listening to it in the first place, and ignored 56 pages of it. This way they can say "Well we collected data and this is what we decided" That's exactly what's going to happen.

#54 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostGaussDragon, on 27 August 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

I find it hilarious that two years later, the PPCs have come full circle and are back to the speeds and heat levels they had in closed beta when hardly anybody used them.

Back to where they were before heat decreases and speed increases to make the PPC more attractive (because you couldn't hit what you aimed at) and ballistics HSR, which allowed them to actually hit ... which led to them becoming the most useful direct fire weapon in the game (particularly when paired with a ballistic weapon with a similar profile).

While I think the speed could be a bit higher, the nerf became appropriate almost a year and a half ago, when HSR was implemented.

Even at max range, paired PPC/Ballistics is still effective, just harder to be accurate with at extreme range (but definitely not as hard as it was before HSR). Because of this, it's easier for brawlers to close the distance, making 'mechs equipped with other weapon systems more viable than they were. I'm OK with this.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 27 August 2014 - 07:51 PM.


#55 Monsoon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:58 PM

Soooo, any chance we'll get to play in the Mech Factory map again?

Better yet, preview the Mauler? :)

#56 Bad Andy

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:05 PM

let us keep our c bills and GXP and i'll try it

#57 Em3r4ld

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:07 PM

I hope flamers finally get a place in the game. It's been too long.

#58 Kilo 40

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:09 PM

Quote

I am going to avoid telling you any of the details of what has changed. My hope is that you get to try these changes out and share your first-hand experience with us before the numbers lead to any preconceptions.


preconceptions??? with this "community"?? LOL!

PROTIP: No matter what changes you made, it's going to be wrong. And even if they like what you did, they will complain that you didn't do it soon enough.

Edited by Kilo 40, 27 August 2014 - 08:09 PM.


#59 Archon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:19 PM

We do not need more weapon nerfs for the clans. We do need 10 vs 12. Please stop nerfing weapons. It makes everything feel so bland. Or if 10vs12 is not an option, rather than nerfing weapons that are good, please buff the weapons that are bad.

#60 CGB Behemoth

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:35 PM

View PostArchon, on 27 August 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

We do not need more weapon nerfs for the clans. We do need 10 vs 12. Please stop nerfing weapons. It makes everything feel so bland. Or if 10vs12 is not an option, rather than nerfing weapons that are good, please buff the weapons that are bad.

Absolutely wright words.





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