Fleeb the Mad, on 31 August 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:
I have to specifically disagree with this assertion. Clan range advantages come in two parts that are the primary issue in my mind with Clan v IS weapon balance.
1) Longer extreme range allows clan mechs to fire on IS mechs that actually can't shoot back at all. Calling out IS players for failing to close range before engaging is not fair to the IS players, who tend to be in mechs that are slower than their Clan counterparts due to the need to carry a standard engine. There are numerous situations where an IS mech will start getting hit by Clan long-range weapons before they've made it far enough from their spawn point to get into cover, and be unable to shoot back. It is infinitely frustrating, as in the case with LRMs, to be stuck in a situation where you're getting hit and there's nothing you can do about it. It also occurs when IS mechs have to cross open ground in order to advance to effective range.
Here's the thing though. Just how often are you in a position were you are on an open plane, with perfect line of sight (no obstacles), at 800M+ ? The Map with the broken ship?.. Its stupid to go out near that thing nomater what mech your driving as there's no cover to use against 'any' weapon. The Desert-ish Volcano map? 90% of the fighting happens 'on' that volcano. Its rare that you see anyone go out to the outer edges on either side of the Volcano. The Canyon map? Standing up on the Canyon top, you've got cover nearly everywhere. Tera Therma (figures the only map i remember the name of is the one i hate the 'design' of in terms of paths they try to force you to go) Unless your fighting around the 'outside' of the volcano, most ranges are under 600m, and 90% of all fights end up with one or both sides running up into the caldera like a bunch of lemmings (as the map is 'designed' to funnel the action there unfortunately). The frozen city map? Plenty of hills and buildings. The City that's split by the Mountain?... Unless your fighting to the west/south of that Bridge... your not fighting at ranges over 500m. About the only map with 'almost' max range engagements most of the time is the Space one. And that only becomes an issue if you are standing up on the upper ramps, or fighting along the outer edges.
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Since the Clan mechs that make best use of these weapons are faster than their IS counterparts, you can also be stuck in a situation where your IS mech can't actually close with a cagey Clanner. The idea that all an IS pilot has to do is get closer does not account for a Clan pilot who knows what they're doing.
Only if the IS mech's dont use XL engines... as i did with my direct 'numbers' game post. Yet the complain given with that is "our IS Mech's die when ST'd if we use an XL.".. Ok.. then Tweak how the loss of the ST effects the Clan mech's, Dont sit there and Nerf the 'weapons' as a way to balance a 'engine' difference.
In terms of useing XL on IS mech's, Not many people use them for 2 reasons:
1) The Whole lose the ST = dead mech thing (though everyone still shoots the CT most of the time anyway, or so people in this thread have said.)
2) The only reason to use an XL is if you are fighting Clan Mech's as a way to match their speed advantage or if you simply want to carry heavier weaponry than you normally would. (Yet we have NO way of specifically knowing if we are going to be fighting Clan or IS on the Live servers, so the IS guys keep their non XL engines and standard IS vs IS loadouts. And then complain the Clans are OP when those loadouts dont work as well against the Clan mech's.)
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2) Clan weapons deal more damage at middle and long ranges due to their extended base range. ER medium lasers, in particular, have the same effective range as IS Large Lasers. So Clan mechs are able to unload more of their full damage potential at middle ranges as well, where IS mechs can't answer in volume of fire with large lasers or PPCs. So again, it's not proper to say that it's the fault of an IS player who is making poor decisions. I have a Stormcrow. I know I can pop out around a corner at 500m and unload 7 lasers into an IS assault who most likely has no more than a couple large lasers or PPCs to return fire with at that range. That's an engagement I can win handily every time, and there's nothing they can do about it because they have no hope of catching me if I move to a different spot.
Scroll up a bit (on page 4) and look at the direct 'matched' comparisons i made between a Timber / Pult, Stormcrow / Hunchback, Kitfox / Raven. The 'damage' that everyone keeps trying to say is 'way overpowered' is ironically close to equal with Clan mech's haveing just a 'slight' (less than 9-points in the highest) advantage in terms of damage. Cooling is close except for the Timber/Pault and Raven/Kitfox examples, and Speeds are nearly identical except for the Hunch/Stormcrow.
Granted, not everyone is going to use my preferred builds (hey they work well for me and how i pilot my mech's so i call them good). But if you want to play the 'numbers' game. Those numbers are nowhere near as bad as everyone tries to say they are IF you change that IS vs IS loadout into an IS vs Clan loadout.
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An IS medium, by contrast, can't repeat that because its low-tonnage weapons have a much lower effective range and it will be taking at least equal fire in return. It's particularly lopsided when you consider that a Clan heavy or assault can punch out an IS medium attempting to do the same thing because they can, again, levy a greater portion of their firepower at middle range.
Your basing most of then on a 1 on 1 senario. Thats the problem. How often do you see a IS mech facing off against a Clan mech 1 on 1, with neither of them having any help, when the Clan mech is at his optimal range that is outside of the IS mech's return-fire ability, and that IS mech just sits there and Dosnt close the gap or use LRM's that CAN hit at the distance?
Yes he will take some armor damage while moving closer, but that damage will be spread out a LOT more because of the longer burn time of the Clan weapon, than he would if he'd been getting hit by an IS weapon which does all of its damage in 1 second or less with ALL of its beam weapons. While the Clan Beams take over 1 second to do their full damage, except for MPL's at 0.9 duration, and SPL's at 0.75 (which are still nearly 2x the burn-time of the IS counterparts)
So you run from one rock to another. A Claner fires at you with an ERLL. He hits your arm, ST, and CT in lets say... a total of 1 second. Thats 5.65 damage spread across 3 components. If an IS ERLL had hit at 'its' optimal, thats 9 damage spread across those 3 components. Yes he's doing 'some' damage.. but its barely over 1/2 of the damage a IS beam would have done in the same scenario. The only difference being the Clan can do it slightly further away, but again, how often are you 'really' engaging other mech's at ranges that are 'perfect' for Clan mech's, and un-usable to IS?
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The damage over time mechanics make raw damage numbers balance against the fact that Clans have lower tonnage weapons and more compact equipment. It does not in any way account for the extended range, which combined with overly survivable clan XL engines offer an unequaled and frankly, unfair, advantage.
Here's the thing about the Damage over Time stuff.
Clan ERLL vs IS ERLL.
In the time it takes a Clan ERLL to fire at a target, do its full duration/damage, and cycle its cooldown so it can 'start' to fire again. The IS ERLL has fired
twice and is starting its 'second' cooldown cycle.
Every argument about Clan weapons always revolves around their extra range, But again, how often are you truly AT those 'extra range' distances when facing off against an IS mech?
Every argument about Clan "XL" engines, revolve around having to destroy 'both' ST's in order to kill the Clan Mech. Yet, people in this thread come up and say that they still shoot the CT instead of ST's anyway be it IS or Clan as its 'faster' to kill the Mehc's that way.
Of the two, only the Clan XL vs IS XL really has any 'weight' behind it. Yet its the One thing PGI is not making any changes to. Instead their content with nerfing Clan weapons over and over again until one day Clan mech's will overheat just from firing 2 ERSL's at one time.
Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 01:36 PM.
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