109 replies to this topic

[Blacksoul1987]

Laser vomit is better than IS autocannons

[Kutfroat]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

PP.FLD is ALWAYS better. Nothing to debate.

and should´nt have been in the game from the start. it´s THE broken mechanic that made poptarting brokenly op...
it´s THE broken mechanic that caused all the balancing issues to begin with.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kutfroat, on 04 September 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

and should´nt have been in the game from the start. it´s THE broken mechanic that made poptarting brokenly op...
it´s THE broken mechanic that caused all the balancing issues to begin with.

lol. Nope.


One of the things PGI (initially) got right was having a variety of damage mechanic style sin play. Adds tons of character. You can keep your Papercut Warrior Online.

The problem has been totally inconsistent attempts to balance it, and nerfs usually affecting everything BUT what was needed to fix issues.

Pinpoint Convergence of MULTIPLE weapons is, and has always been the issue. Especially with perfectly stable aim whether jumping, running, falling, etc.

In general, PP-FLD weapons are significantly heavier than DoT or Spread damage ones. A 14 ton weapon with a minimum of 3-4 tons of ammo needed to be effective, needs to hit hard, or it's totally worthless. What is not needed ifs for BOTH to hit the same exact location, every time, even on snapshots on moving targets, from a moving firing platform. Also not needed is for PPC and Gauss and AC20 to have such short cooldowns.

There are tons of ways to balance FLD. The problem is a player base who can't think outside CoD mechanics, and a certain Dev that can't balance a checkbook, let alone a dynamic, evolving environment, first person shooter.

[Joseph Mallan]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 September 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Laser vomit is better than IS autocannons

I actually never thought I would read a post claiming this!

Is the sky on fire yet?

[Wild Hamster]

Yes I agree they should unnerf all the clan weaponry

and make it 5v12

[Blacksoul1987]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 September 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

I actually never thought I would read a post claiming this!

Is the sky on fire yet?

I should specify I mean clan laser vomit. something like 56 pts of damage its insane and extremely easy to use since its hitscan.

[Ruhkil]

the other thing is all the nerfs are just feeding into one another. the main ways IS would combat the high heat clan mechs is with guass rifles since they are heat neutral and do a bunch of damage but oh wait they have a charge time that limits their rate of fire and increases exposure. so a fragile dual gauss jagermech that should be able to shoot and scoot or pop in and out of cover when fighting a much more durable TWolf instead has to stand toe toe with it and expose its ST to enemy fire of which the TWOLF has an insane amount?. you want a brawling jumping victor to counter an enemy dire whale that has mobility issues? Oh well the victor can't jump and can barely torso twist to save its life. Stop nerfing things its just adding up to bad things for everyone. maybe restore clan weapons to what they were and un nerf the highlander JJ make the victor back into what it was and remove gauss rifle charge ? get rid of ghost heat?

Edited by Ruhkil, 04 September 2014 - 07:02 AM.

[Shadow Magnet]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

I should specify I mean clan laser vomit. something like 56 pts of damage its insane and extremely easy to use since its hitscan.

You mean when HSR/hit registration is actually working? I had a match earlier today, laser boat Jester. Pumped 5 Alphas into the CT of a Jäger that was like 150m in front of me, moving towards me. At the end some other mech got me and the Jäger had just the CT armor orange. Not even cored...

If they really take the last PTS nerfs to the live server on friday, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Clan mechs you see in matches goes down alot. And as mentioned above, certain Clan mechs will vanish almost completely, being obsolete after the nerf.

[Bulletsponge0]

Nerf specific chassis through quirks, don't nerf the weapons.

Or does Paul really think the summoner and adder are OP?

[Bishop Steiner]

Bulletsponge0, on 04 September 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Nerf specific chassis through quirks, don't nerf the weapons.

Or does Paul really think the summoner and adder are OP?

yeah..... I had considered buying MC summoner for my main account, as it's my favorite Clan MEch, from TT and previous titles.
Which would make TWICE I spent IRL money on it. But it's so mediocre NOW, that I won't do that, and with new incoming nerfs? No chance in heck. MIght not even buy it for CBills.

I still work my butt off to make it work in my Clan Acct.....but when it's time for "real" drops in the Clan, I grab my TWolf. Period.

[Budor]

Gyrok, on 04 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

No...there is no debate....You fire one slug and do your damage with IS ACs. Even the IS AC2 (while it may be worthless) is better than the CAC2.

There is nothing to dispute, at all...

As for clan chassis, most of the clan chassis are not as good as the best IS mechs in their category...so you are going to nerf already marginal weapons to offset that?

No, put your pitchforks and torches away...

Yes there is for me.

Comparing AC5 to CUAC5: The speed of the 5s is pretty high, i can hit with the 3 cuac projectiles almost every time and i have the added option of doubling that damage. If i lead lights i may land 1-3 projectiles where a miss is a miss with the IS version.

Comparing UAC5 to CUAC5: Clan platforms are just better, because ultra builds have high exposure time and are xl'd. Assaults are not xl'd but you cannot out-ultra the dire.

Whatever advantage the IS 5s or 2s might have for other people is simply negated by the fact that i can mount more on clan chassi in ADDITION to the vastly superior lasers. AC20s and 10s (which i really dont see used much because they are in a difficult spot tonnage and slot wise on IS chassi) are better and this is where it ends.

[Bishop Steiner]

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

Yes there is for me.

Comparing AC5 to CUAC5: The speed of the 5s is pretty high, i can hit with the 3 cuac projectiles almost every time and i have the added option of doubling that damage. If i lead lights i may land 1-3 projectiles where a miss is a miss with the IS version.

Comparing UAC5 to CUAC5: Clan platforms are just better, because ultra builds have high exposure time and are xl'd. Assaults are not xl'd but you cannot out-ultra the dire.

Whatever advantage the IS 5s or 2s might have for other people is simply negated by the fact that i can mount more on clan chassi in ADDITION to the vastly superior lasers. AC20s and 10s (which i really dont see used much because they are in a difficult spot tonnage and slot wise on IS chassi) are better and this is where it ends.

yes...because landing 1 damage on that light mech per volley, and larger hits being spread on several hit locations, is going to be much more effective than landing 2-5 pt clusters 3 out of 4 times. (or 2 out of 3 if you are a bad shot like me).

[amisu]

Gyrok, on 04 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

What I want to know is...why is it ok to have some IS chassis and weapons better than clans...(ALL ACs for example...)...But it is absolutely not ok to have some clan weapons better than IS weapons?

Because people who cry about "OP clans" have loser mentality and love their victimhood. Nothing more.

[Blacksoul1987]

Ruhkil, on 04 September 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

the other thing is all the nerfs are just feeding into one another. the main ways IS would combat the high heat clan mechs is with guass rifles since they are heat neutral and do a bunch of damage but oh wait they have a charge time that limits their rate of fire and increases exposure. so a fragile dual gauss jagermech that should be able to shoot and scoot or pop in and out of cover when fighting a much more durable TWolf instead has to stand toe toe with it and expose its ST to enemy fire of which the TWOLF has an insane amount?. you want a brawling jumping victor to counter an enemy dire whale that has mobility issues? Oh well the victor can't jump and can barely torso twist to save its life. Stop nerfing things its just adding up to bad things for everyone. maybe restore clan weapons to what they were and un nerf the highlander JJ make the victor back into what it was and remove gauss rifle charge ? get rid of ghost heat?

LOL remove gauss charge that will help the Twolf as well and the direwolf will be more beastly. Remove Ghost heat you say? how about 9ERLL alpha from a direwolf? or 2 gauss 3ppc? un nerfing all this stuff will just allow clans drop anything within seconds long before they can close.

[Ruhkil]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 September 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

LOL remove gauss charge that will help the Twolf as well and the direwolf will be more beastly. Remove Ghost heat you say? how about 9ERLL alpha from a direwolf? or 2 gauss 3ppc? un nerfing all this stuff will just allow clans drop anything within seconds long before they can close.

not across the board un nerfs i realize upon reflection that my comment could seem to mean that but why not buff some IS mechs. if we have for example burst fire clan ACS a continuation of that trend(where IS ballistics are better than clan ballistics) would be to remove the gauss charge for IS mechs only. they dont have clan laser weps with their massive draw on the engines maybe we could contrive a reason to remove IS gauss charge time instead of nerfing the clans into the dumpster.

would add flavor to the game and make a bunch of people happy

think about it

a classic meta victor with ppc and gauss with no charge time using its mobility and the heat neutral gauss to take on a warhawk with PPCs that have a realistic speed instead of syrup in the winter time. Gee that sounds like something that might happen in battletech! Might actually be a fun fight instead of the warhawk turning into a furnace after missing a bunch of shots at 300m because of the stupidly low projectile speed and shutting down while the victor moving in stark terror clanking like the tin man(crappy turn rate and jump jets that dont even make the mech move) from the wizard of OZ to hide behind a rock
as for ghost heat removal that would be trickier but wouldn't its removal allow things like the 4 and 6 ppc stalker to function again? so its not like I am trying to trash the IS in a covert manner old IS builds from before ghost heat that players liked to use would work and would work well!

it seems like we only make the mechs less fun and more difficult to use in general. Having fun with your victor you bought for cbills? NOPEEEE JJ CRUSHED YOU CANT TURN. having fun in your speedy light mech that was your first purchase with your cadet bonus? NOPE now you randomly take leg damage while running across the map for no reason whatsoever try not to leg yourself while trying to outrun the lasers that are also targeting your legs!!!. Having fun in your clan mech NOPE ALLL YOUR WEAPONS SUCK!

Edited by Ruhkil, 04 September 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[kapusta11]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

lol. Nope.


One of the things PGI (initially) got right was having a variety of damage mechanic style sin play. Adds tons of character. You can keep your Papercut Warrior Online.

The problem has been totally inconsistent attempts to balance it, and nerfs usually affecting everything BUT what was needed to fix issues.

Pinpoint Convergence of MULTIPLE weapons is, and has always been the issue. Especially with perfectly stable aim whether jumping, running, falling, etc.

In general, PP-FLD weapons are significantly heavier than DoT or Spread damage ones. A 14 ton weapon with a minimum of 3-4 tons of ammo needed to be effective, needs to hit hard, or it's totally worthless. What is not needed ifs for BOTH to hit the same exact location, every time, even on snapshots on moving targets, from a moving firing platform. Also not needed is for PPC and Gauss and AC20 to have such short cooldowns.

There are tons of ways to balance Pinpoint Alphas. The problem is a player base who can't think outside CoD mechanics, and a certain Dev that can't balance a checkbook, let alone a dynamic, evolving environment, first person shooter.

FTFY though you've already said about use of multiple weapons.

Both PPFLD and PP hitscan DOT weapons proved to be OP when MASSED and any kind of nerf should direct massed USE of pinpoint weapons. Clans have pinpoint alpha advantage, clan medium lasers, while closer to IS large lasers in their profile, treated like mediums by Ghost Heat, wtf?

Longer burn duration will just ruin lasers altogether since torso twisting will negate most of the damage, 1.3 sec is high enough already. Higher heat cost wont work well with stock (compared to TT) dissipation either, energy boats will suffer the most while 2xGauss + arrays of medium/small lasers Dire wolves will remain superior.

Weapon specific nerfs will only work if you make clan tech actually worse then IS one. I vote for Ghost Heating clan mediums to 4 with 10 additional heat when firing 5. At least this will address the issue directly.

There is still problem with heat neutral weapons. Mixing them with energy ones is a natural choice if you want to avoid Ghost Heat, but still count as massed use of pinpoint weapons. That's why Ghost heat suck, you need completely new mechanic here.

Bulletsponge0, on 04 September 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Nerf specific chassis through quirks, don't nerf the weapons.

Or does Paul really think the summoner and adder are OP?

Hell no, "medicore" clan mechs don't have endo steel + have fixed equipment + high rating heavy engines, they are worse for a reason. There you go http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1126398be46dd63 try making something viable.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 September 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

Ruhkil, on 04 September 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

not across the board un nerfs i realize upon reflection that my comment could seem to mean that but why not buff some IS mechs. if we have for example burst fire clan ACS a continuation of that trend would be to remove the gauss charge for IS mechs only. they dont have clan laser weps with their massive draw on the engines maybe we could contrive a reason to remove IS gauss charge time instead of nerfing the clans into the dumpster

would add flavor to the game and make a bunch of people happy

think about it

a classic meta victor with ppc and gauss with no charge time vs a warhawk with PPCs that have a realistic speed instead of syrup in the winter time. might actually be a fun fight instead of the warhawk turning into a furnace and the victor moving in stark terror clanking like the tin man from the wizard of OZ to hide behind a rock

IS balance is pretty good right now in terms of weapons (there is still chassis imbalance) removing gauss charge would simply throw everything out of whack. I'm not interested in seeing nothing but victors and highlanders fight nothing but timberwolves. Some IS chassis do need buffs though and well summoner and the clan lights certainly could use some help.

[Budor]

Carrie Harder, on 04 September 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

The Dire Wolf has the lowest mobility of any mech presently in the game. The Adder and Kit Fox are roughly 50% slower than most IS lights (106.9 kph versus 150+). The Nova is roughly average for medium mech speed, or slightly lower.

So that leaves half of the pack being more mobile, and half being less. The Warhawk depends on what you compare it to I guess. It's more mobile than the larger IS assaults, but Victors can easily outrun it due to their XL viability.


As for more weapons, bro do you even Summoner? The Adder also has very very few hardpoints. Kit Fox hardpoints are okay but not that great.

I always exclude the clan lights because they are vastly different mechs than the IS lights. I thought thats common sense.

You did not mention the "more weapons part" of my post. The Nova is way more mobile with a bigger payload than ANY comparable non xl IS medium, the Summoner lacks tonnage but it goes 89 with whatever you pack on it, you cannot load up an IS chassi with more of their worse weapons while achieving that speed.

Its true that i do not know anything about the warhawk though, i do not own one, i did not play one on the PTS and i didnt even look at the omnipods yet.

With the clan XLs being not penalized to side torso loss the clan platforms are simply better. PGI seems to go the weapon nerf way which is ok to me as i do not want the mobility nerfed on any of the clan mechs because i dont play turret war online. They can alter the Nova and Summoner via Endo or FF or whatever afterwards. Even with the nerfs on the PTS clan is still a winner in my book but its a good first step, the second should be to unnerf IS mobility.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

yes...because landing 1 damage on that light mech per volley, and larger hits being spread on several hit locations, is going to be much more effective than landing 2-5 pt clusters 3 out of 4 times. (or 2 out of 3 if you are a bad shot like me).

Why are you dismissing the doubletap part allthetime? Are the names the issue, ac5 to cuac5? If uac5s was 8 tons/4 slots no one would use ac5s.


I will stop here though with a compromise, ok 3 (20,10 and 5) ac's are better than clan, ALL OTHER weapons are better on clan mechs. Reread slowly until it clicks if it doesnt open spoiler.

Spoiler

Better weapons and ammo on fully cased, omnipodded (no **** variants) mechs that do not die when losing a side torso.

90% wins is true to the lore maybe but its not good in a online multiplayer shooter. PGI needs to nerf clans and they will or all IS mechs will be the locust of tomorrow.

Edited by Budor, 04 September 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Ruhkil]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 September 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

IS balance is pretty good right now in terms of weapons (there is still chassis imbalance) removing gauss charge would simply throw everything out of whack. I'm not interested in seeing nothing but victors and highlanders fight nothing but timberwolves. Some IS chassis do need buffs though and well summoner and the clan lights certainly could use some help.

note: i mean keep clan gauss on charge time while removing gauss charge for IS use the high draw clan energy weapons like the PPC or lasers as a fluff lore reason.

im not sure it would turn into that though. i do see your concern in a way. lets remember the grid iron hero mech and how strange a mech that was? the main reasons why people thought it would be dumb were two fold the gauss charge time in the same part of the mech that people always target(its hunch) and its XL engine that can be blown up too easy(low armor of medium mech slow people target it immediately) if the person driving the hunchback stays in the open too long. which could happen because..... the gauss has a charge time negative feedback loop of suck . remove the charge time and hunchbacks with gauss rifles and XL enginges become more viable which gives the IS more heat neutral suppressing fire. maybe a gauss hunchback following a ECM DDC around would have the range and punch to contribute in the arena when a bunch of clan mechs are running around. new players could still contribute and feel like they are helping.

we might see more mechs like the grid iron or at least more mechs like it. i used to have a gauss PPC shadow hawk but stopped using it becuase using 2 ac5s was way easier and the difference in heat was not so great as to make a difference in overall performance.

however a gauss ppc shadow hawk with the gauss charge removed and its excellent hardpoints vs a nova which seems to overheat every 3 seconds or it has to chain fire its super high heat medium lasers(aren't they increasing the heat on those lasers? ) does not seem totally unfair to me seems sort of balanced.

also i dont mean get rid of ghost heat entirely to allow for things like the 9 laser dire wolf you mentioned i just want the game to be fun and its not fun if cheese build ppl just stomp everyone who did not pay. i meant ghost heat used where we cant even fire our guns. they were gonna have ghost heat trigger if you fired 2 large lasers... wtf every clan mech we have uses laser weapons as primary weapons(in one build or another at any rate) that and the ppc nerf basically means the Adder has to use LPL all day every day. if they make it so you cant fire your guns what are we supposed to do hug the ac/40 jagers to death? what about the kit foxes they dont have that many heat sinks triggering ghost heat while firing 2 er larges means that with the 2 second burn time they basically gotta stand still in the open(far away from the battle so they have at least a snowballs chance in hell that they will do damage where their ecm and ams do nothing for the team by the way) for 4 seconds and then get creamed by whatever IS light or long range IS build notices where they are. Bye bye clan lights while the direwolf lols and switches to whatever gross min max build the players are using this week. because its a hundred ton assault mech with upwards of 50 tons of podspace and even if it cant boat a gross amount of lasers its going to boat a gross amount of something.

Edited by Ruhkil, 04 September 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Ruhkil]

it begs the question if PGI intended to release clan mechs and then nerf them into the dirt and there is no way to balance them as some people say what are we gonna do with this game?