109 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Ruhkil, on 04 September 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

it begs the question if PGI intended to release clan mechs and then nerf them into the dirt and there is no way to balance them as some people say what are we gonna do with this game?

I don't know about you, but I am going to fight the Clans as I intended to when I chose the Lyran flag!

[Bilbo]

I've decided not to play my clan mechs until they have finished their adjustments. I don't want to have to rebuild them all every time they make a change.

[Almond Brown]

One could try a 4/4/2/2 Clan vs 3/3/3/3 I.S. As has been noted, (a bazillion times it seems) the Clan Lights are less mobile and that configuration limits the # of the scary (so they are called) Clan Mechs that can be fielded.

So instead of a #'s disadvantage the Clans get a weight disadvantage combined with less "allowed" really heavy hitters.

[Bilbo]

Almond Brown, on 04 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

One could try a 4/4/2/2 Clan vs 3/3/3/3 I.S. As has been noted, (a bazillion times it seems) the Clan Lights are less mobile and that configuration limits the # of the scary (so they are called) Clan Mechs that can be fielded.

So instead of a #'s disadvantage the Clans get a weight disadvantage combined with less "allowed" really heavy hitters.

Except when people flood the queues with Clan assault and heavies, the matchmaker then just throws the whole idea out the window so people can get into matches.

[Carrie Harder]

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I always exclude the clan lights because they are vastly different mechs than the IS lights. I thought thats common sense.

The problem is that the performance lights (and other outlier chassis) make it silly to make sweeping generalizations about the Clan lineup. Not all Clan mechs are created equal (nor are all IS mechs). They should be address on an individual basis, not as a singular stereotype. We can't call the whole lineup OP just because of the Mad Cat and Ryoken, just like we can't call the whole lineup is UP just because of the Badder and Suckoner. Addressing them on a case-by-case basis is more productive.

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

You did not mention the "more weapons part" of my post. The Nova is way more mobile with a bigger payload than ANY comparable non xl IS medium, the Summoner lacks tonnage but it goes 89 with whatever you pack on it, you cannot load up an IS chassi with more of their worse weapons while achieving that speed.

The Nova in particular is somewhat analogous to a 6 PPC Stalker, in that it has a huge alpha but then takes ages to cool down for a second volley. Some other good comparisons are the Jagerbomb and Splatcat -- builds that do huge damage at short-medium range, but tend to be fragile and are common targets for focus fire (due to their psychological impact).

I'm not saying the Nova is horrible, but it certainly isn't omnipotent either. It's a one-trick-pony that is very good at its one trick (in this case, laser boating) but that's really all it can do. It's viable but I quite honestly do not find it to be "overall" better than muh precious Griffs and Shads.


On a side note, most IS mediums aren't even good in the first place. I'd say the only ones that truly excel are the Shadow Hawk and Griffin for the most part, and I prefer both of those over the Nova because of much better hitbox geometry plus more agility and higher weapon mounts (Shadow Hawk is the ultimate peekaboo troll, 2K variant in particular).


As for the Suckoner, you don't need to move 89.1 kph in a heavy (outside of the 60 tonners anyways). Generally speaking, the mid 70s to lower 80s is where the "optimal" heavy speed usually lies. Even a modest Catapult K2 can pack quite a bit more firepower while going within that speed range listed in the previous sentence. Quite frankly, the only real perk the Thor has is being fairly durable, given that it has a humanoid body shape (flat chest can be shielded by the arms from the side). Not much else outside of that, though. It's not the worst heavy by any means, but it's not "good" either.

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Its true that i do not know anything about the warhawk though, i do not own one, i did not play one on the PTS and i didnt even look at the omnipods yet.

With the clan XLs being not penalized to side torso loss the clan platforms are simply better. PGI seems to go the weapon nerf way which is ok to me as i do not want the mobility nerfed on any of the clan mechs because i dont play turret war online. They can alter the Nova and Summoner via Endo or FF or whatever afterwards. Even with the nerfs on the PTS clan is still a winner in my book but its a good first step, the second should be to unnerf IS mobility.

Some of the Clan platforms are better (i.e. the infamous Mad Cat), and some are not so much better (i.e. Summoner). As said earlier, don't generalize. After all, would it be fair of me to call the Inner Sphere as a whole overpowered because they have the best lights? That would be silly of me, and it wouldn't represent the true state of affairs.

Allowing us to alter the internal goodies of Omnis seems unlikely for a variety of reasons. Namely, it severely borks the balance because the primary weakness of Clan robots is dealing with those hardwired inefficiencies...remove the inefficiencies and we're gonna have a bad time. It also somewhat reduces the "flavor" of the faction (right now they feel very different to customize and play than IS mechs).

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 September 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Laser vomit is better than IS autocannons

Least there's at least one person on the forums who pays attention.

People here are still hyped up on autocannons... lol.

Edited by Adiuvo, 04 September 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Budor]

Carrie Harder, on 04 September 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Generally speaking, the mid 70s to lower 80s is where the "optimal" heavy speed usually lies.

Well i am in the position where i will keep generalising because to me more speed is always better, there is no optimal, that is why clan lights are not an issue and why i would take an Summoner over any IS heavy at the moment.

I can see people that like Shadowhaks or Griffins more than the Nova (again speed(!) i dont SH and Nova are best meds imo.) but i certainly wont call the Nova a weaker mech. If it wasnt for the unpenalised XL it would be a tougher matchup.

Like i said, i have no idea about the warhawk and i dont talk about lights but the rest is better for me. The clan weapon nerfs from the PTS arent even that severe, they will certainly not make any chassi become useless suddenly.

What is the other option? Mobility nerfs? The Victor/Highlander treatment? I certainly hope they do not go that way

Edited by Budor, 04 September 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[Carrie Harder]

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Well i am in the position where i will keep generalising because to me more speed is always better, there is no optimal, that is why clan lights are not an issue and why i would take an Summoner over any IS heavy at the moment.

But not all Clan robots have more speed. This extends to other chassis than just the lights, just to a lesser extent.

Dire Wolf: Slowest mech of any class.
Nova: Approximately "average" speed for most mediums, maybe a wee bit under but not much.
Warhawk: Outran by Victors (and crazy Awesome pilots?) but outruns the rest. This one is hard to make a full verdict on.
Lights: Already known...


While speed is definitely very, very, very useful to have, there really isn't much of a difference between a heavy going 89.1 and a heavy going 73-83. If given the choice, I would drop down the Summoner's engine a few ratings in a heartbeat to free up more weapon tonnage.

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I can see people that like Shadowhaks or Griffins more than the Nova ( i dont, SH and Nova are best meds imo.) but i certainly wont call the Nova a weaker mech. If it wasnt for the unpenalised XL it would certainly be a tougher matchup.

"Weaker" might not be the best choice of words for the Nova's status. It has higher damage output by a pretty big margin, but the Griff/Shad are usually tougher, more agile, and a bit better for twitch-brawling due to SRMs (not DoT), and Shads are better for sniping (dat shoulder cannon).They can also go faster if one chooses to use a higher engine rating. It's a choice of being a specialist or being more versatile.

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Like i said, i have no idea about the warhawk and i dont talk about lights but the rest is better for me. The clan weapon nerfs from the PTS arent even that severe, they will certainly not make any chassi become useless suddenly.

What is the other option? Mobility nerfs? The Victor/Highlander treatment? I certainly hope they do not go that way

For the PTS nerfs, I seriously don't understand why they targeted Pulse Lasers. Too much wub-wub? I'd also argue that the ERSL has been nerfed more than enough by this point, given that it's very short ranged and DoT.

Victor/Highlander treatment seems likely, unfortunately. The Mad Cat in particular seems like a prime candidate...


But what really makes me shake head is the IS ERLL nerf. 1.5 second duration... Did anybody actually find the IS ERLL to be OP?

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 08:49 AM.

[Dracol]

Ruhkil, on 04 September 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

-snip-

Or option two, you practice. You get into that "Warrior Zone" where you're not even thinking about how far ahead you lead a target.... you just shoot and its on target.

The PPC is a PPFL damage weapon and requires skill to use. With the speed change, it increased the required skill level to achieve the same gains as before.

From what I can tell from your writing, you dropped into game post speed change, didn't get the same results you used to and so changed weapons.

The people getting the same returns as before stuck with the weapon, internalized the changed, and their game play adjusted. They saw a dip in their performance but have been able to adapt their skill level to overcome the change.

[Rushmoar]

Anyone who said PGI should do 10 v 12 to balance the Clans, you are preaching bad advice. 10 v 12 is an omission that Clans are op and unless both sides are equal balance can never be reached.

This is a live action game. If it was turn based then 10 v 12 could work like in the game Axis and Allies. Also why would anyone want to share 10 possible kills with 11 other people when you cold have 12 kills shared between 10 poeple.

One of the reasons the U.S. won the European conflict in WWII was the Sherman tank. Do you think the Sherman was in any way superior to the German Tiger II? It was not. The reason it won the war because it out numbered the German tanks like 5 to 1. MWO is a skilled based game and if the only for one side to win is to jot number the other side then what you have is a broken game.

I don't mean to insult anyone but you TT fan boys need to get over it. Let changes happen so 12 v 12 can be as fun as possible.

Cheers all.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 04 September 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Least there's at least one person on the forums who pays attention.

People here are still hyped up on autocannons... lol.

Which isn't to say ACs are bad. Heat system still limits lasers pretty badly.


They've simply lost one of their largest advantages with the JJ nerf, being able to deal all their damage in an instant, on top of on a single panel. PPC speed nerf made it harder to hit with massed alphas, but the HoverJets™ are what really affected it.


From my view at any rate. Haven't been playing nearly as much as in the past.

[Koniving]

In the past...

I've said that a few things make Clans overpowered.

Weapons, ironically, isn't one of them.

However in the first paragraph of the original post, one of the most critical things I have stated to be a source of huge imbalance, the Targeting Computer, is mentioned as part of why "Clans are OP."

>.> But there isn't anything addressing the targeting computer.

A TC should do this but slightly faster. But right now, this is done instantly for no (real) reason that couldn't be fixed.

[Gyrok]

Rushmoar, on 04 September 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Anyone who said PGI should do 10 v 12 to balance the Clans, you are preaching bad advice. 10 v 12 is an omission that Clans are op and unless both sides are equal balance can never be reached.

This is a live action game. If it was turn based then 10 v 12 could work like in the game Axis and Allies. Also why would anyone want to share 10 possible kills with 11 other people when you cold have 12 kills shared between 10 poeple.

One of the reasons the U.S. won the European conflict in WWII was the Sherman tank. Do you think the Sherman was in any way superior to the German Tiger II? It was not. The reason it won the war because it out numbered the German tanks like 5 to 1. MWO is a skilled based game and if the only for one side to win is to jot number the other side then what you have is a broken game.

I don't mean to insult anyone but you TT fan boys need to get over it. Let changes happen so 12 v 12 can be as fun as possible.

Cheers all.

12 VS 12 will never be what you want it to be...I can promise you that. It will literally kill this game entirely if clan mechs = IS mechs with new skins.

Period. You cannot fathom how many refund requests will get sent if that day comes...seriously...

[Fut]

Rushmoar, on 04 September 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Anyone who said PGI should do 10 v 12 to balance the Clans, you are preaching bad advice. 10 v 12 is an omission that Clans are op and unless both sides are equal balance can never be reached.

Most of us who are calling for 10 vs 12 matches don't want an equal balance between Clan and IS.
We want Clans to be the monstrous asskickers that they're supposed to be, we want to try and repel their invasion using superior numbers and our tactics.

If 1 Clan Mech = 1 IS Mech, then there really isn't a difference besides aesthetics - and that's incredibly lame.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rushmoar, on 04 September 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Anyone who said PGI should do 10 v 12 to balance the Clans, you are preaching bad advice. 10 v 12 is an omission that Clans are op and unless both sides are equal balance can never be reached.

Clans field units in 5s. 5 Points(Mechs) is a Star. 2 Stars is a Binary(10 points), 3 stars is a Trinary(15 Points). Clans normally fought the Inner Sphere with a numeric disadvantage due to their superior tech/tactics/egos. 10 on 12 would be both Canon and if Clan OmniMechs were what they were meant to be, still tipped in the Clanners favor.

[Dark Jackal]

Remove the ridiculous ghost heat from all 'Mechs (both Clan and IS) and you could potentially do 10 v 12 (Clan v IS) with even tonnage. But, there is a catch for 10 v 12 in a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER game like this one in that you're already playing with extra two people that can out maneuver and bring more aimed shots than the other team could. You just have to imagine any other game where that 11th guy that supposed to join your team did not and instead joined the other team for a 10 v 12 match. You might win a few uneven matches but over time the numbers will overwhelm you and you will eventually lose unless the 12 man team is really disorganized.

Reality must kick in though as a 10 v 12 does not make sense for THIS game given the massive nerf bats that are essentially coming very close to equalizing Clan and IS 'Mechs to be roughly within the same play-able range of 12 v 12. So there is no real point to having 10 v 12 at this stage and put all that effort into getting other stuff out of the gate.

Edited by Dark Jackal, 04 September 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Viges]

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

What is the other option? Mobility nerfs? The Victor/Highlander treatment? I certainly hope they do not go that way

What else can they do? And they need to buff clan lights a little and I dont see how they can do that at all...

Ah I found a way - clan MASC. Just should be a little be better for clan lights I guess...

[Joseph Mallan]

Dark Jackal, on 04 September 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Remove the ridiculous ghost heat from all 'Mechs (both Clan and IS) and you could potentially do 10 v 12 (Clan v IS) with even tonnage. But, there is a catch for 10 v 12 in a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER game like this one in that you're already playing with extra two people that can out maneuver and bring more aimed shots than the other team could. You just have to imagine any other game where that 11th guy that supposed to join your team did not and instead joined the other team for a 10 v 12 match. You might win a few uneven matches but over time the numbers will overwhelm you and you will eventually lose unless the 12 man team is really disorganized.

Reality must kick in though as a 10 v 12 does not make sense for THIS game given the massive nerf bats that are essentially coming very close to equalizing Clan and IS 'Mechs to be roughly within the same play-able range of 12 v 12. So there is no real point to having 10 v 12 at this stage and put all that effort into getting other stuff out of the gate.

However any long time player of CBT would know most Clan Omnis are a match for 2 mechs of equal tonnage. I'd take this Stormcrow against an Atlas!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 September 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Budor]

Viges, on 04 September 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

What else can they do? And they need to buff clan lights a little and I dont see how they can do that at all...

Ah I found a way - clan MASC. Just should be a little be better for clan lights I guess...

They can do exactly what they do now, lower damage or up heat. They could additionally add clan xl penalties when a side torso pops and un-nerf IS mechs mobility wise.

[Gyrok]

Dark Jackal, on 04 September 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Remove the ridiculous ghost heat from all 'Mechs (both Clan and IS) and you could potentially do 10 v 12 (Clan v IS) with even tonnage. But, there is a catch for 10 v 12 in a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER game like this one in that you're already playing with extra two people that can out maneuver and bring more aimed shots than the other team could. You just have to imagine any other game where that 11th guy that supposed to join your team did not and instead joined the other team for a 10 v 12 match. You might win a few uneven matches but over time the numbers will overwhelm you and you will eventually lose unless the 12 man team is really disorganized.

Reality must kick in though as a 10 v 12 does not make sense for THIS game given the massive nerf bats that are essentially coming very close to equalizing Clan and IS 'Mechs to be roughly within the same play-able range of 12 v 12. So there is no real point to having 10 v 12 at this stage and put all that effort into getting other stuff out of the gate.

The nerf bats do not have to come though...