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Clan Balance Update - Feedback


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#841 Chados

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 07:17 AM

You know, there is some truth to that. I find that it's possible to put a Timberwolf at a heat rating of 1.4, but that puts its alpha firepower in the 40s. Weak for a Clan heavy. But it can keep moving fast and keep shooting, and I almost never get heat shutdown problems even on Terra Therma.

An alpha in the 40s. That's *weak* for a Clan heavy, but a 40-point alpha ain't too shabby for most IS heavies. That's the rough mean for 3R Marauders.

I think it's this that causes IS pilots to roll their eyes when Clan pilots complain about their heat issues. Yes, their gear is hotter. But all of their weapons are lighter, use less crits, are better ranged, and do more damage. Their heat issues magnify when you're a Jenner packing a 72-point alpha strike! That's more one-click firepower than the best Marauder 3R builds, mechs that are twice the Jenner's weight. There is a reason I typically like to run a Timberwolf in the group queue, where there is more coordination and the opponents higher-ranked in tier than me. It gives me a fighting chance to contribute because it tanks like a Banshee, moves like a Wolverine (same speed, speed-tweaked as the base Quarantine, 87.1 kph), and packs the firepower of a Marauder...in their words, it tanks like a 90 tonner, moves like a 55 tonner, and hits like the rest of the 75 ton class it is in.

That's not too shabby.

#842 Captain Mittens

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 01:21 PM

I think what most people forget is that Nearly every IS laser mech has at least %10 heat, 10% range, and 10% duration quirks. While on paper, clan weapons SEEM to be better statistically, in practice people aren't making unquirked IS mechs laser vomit builds.

Additionally, you have to remember the IS LPL is not only the highest burst damage, the highest Contact DPS (Dmg/duration), but they can also fire 3 at a time without ghost heat, same with the standard IS Large Laser, which is long range, high damage, and higher efficiency than the medium lasers.

Clan lasers weigh a little less and use less crits, but Clan mechs don't have much crit-space/tonnage, especially in ST locations. They're rarely quirked and if they do it's something trivial like %5 duration on a light mech. TBR has some pretty brutal negative quirks for the good energy LT, and they are paper thin. I've played a ton of TBR and BLK and the BLK is tougher, faster, and deals better Sustained dmg. The TBR is Paper thin, can't shield with arms, ST is Easy to hit and you can hit the front CT from about 15 degrees BEHIND the mech, so twisting doesn't do anything to shield your CT from someone who can shoot. Range doesn't really matter because most of the time, people aren't fighting outside of their range. You're not really going to get free hits in because your MPLs have an extra 100m in range, in the time it takes you to shoot them, the enemy has already closed that distance.

IMO clans have MUCH better ballistics than lasers, but clans are supposed to have better lasers, that's their thing. In practice the clan LPL is the best laser they have, but you can only fire 2 at a time without ghost, and it's a LOT of ghost heat for 3.

Clans do fine in quick play, because there's no objective to defend from damage, and you have all the time in the world to shoot and duck.

#843 XaxalAndou

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Posted 20 May 2016 - 12:06 AM

View PostCaptain Mittens, on 19 May 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

I think what most people forget is that Nearly every IS laser mech has at least %10 heat, 10% range, and 10% duration quirks. While on paper, clan weapons SEEM to be better statistically, in practice people aren't making unquirked IS mechs laser vomit builds.

Additionally, you have to remember the IS LPL is not only the highest burst damage, the highest Contact DPS (Dmg/duration), but they can also fire 3 at a time without ghost heat, same with the standard IS Large Laser, which is long range, high damage, and higher efficiency than the medium lasers.

Clan lasers weigh a little less and use less crits, but Clan mechs don't have much crit-space/tonnage, especially in ST locations. They're rarely quirked and if they do it's something trivial like %5 duration on a light mech. TBR has some pretty brutal negative quirks for the good energy LT, and they are paper thin. I've played a ton of TBR and BLK and the BLK is tougher, faster, and deals better Sustained dmg. The TBR is Paper thin, can't shield with arms, ST is Easy to hit and you can hit the front CT from about 15 degrees BEHIND the mech, so twisting doesn't do anything to shield your CT from someone who can shoot. Range doesn't really matter because most of the time, people aren't fighting outside of their range. You're not really going to get free hits in because your MPLs have an extra 100m in range, in the time it takes you to shoot them, the enemy has already closed that distance.

IMO clans have MUCH better ballistics than lasers, but clans are supposed to have better lasers, that's their thing. In practice the clan LPL is the best laser they have, but you can only fire 2 at a time without ghost, and it's a LOT of ghost heat for 3.

Clans do fine in quick play, because there's no objective to defend from damage, and you have all the time in the world to shoot and duck.


If we could have the ghost heat issue fixed, it will help clan mech usage for certain. Now we just need the IS guys to not cry power creep.

#844 Gorgo7

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 04:47 PM

The Clans are in a good place right now.

#845 PlzJustDie

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 08:31 AM

View PostGorgo7, on 23 May 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

The Clans are in a good place right now.

Yeah no they are not, Clans need quirks, and ghost heat for clan laser weapons need to be looked at. I play both sides clan and IS, and IMHO IS is easy mode compared to clan mechs, clan mechs are stupid hot, and the extra range they get does not mean anything, especially for FP when all the maps boil down to choke points where range does not help.

#846 PlzJustDie

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 08:42 AM

View PostChados, on 19 March 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

You know, there is some truth to that. I find that it's possible to put a Timberwolf at a heat rating of 1.4, but that puts its alpha firepower in the 40s. Weak for a Clan heavy. But it can keep moving fast and keep shooting, and I almost never get heat shutdown problems even on Terra Therma.

An alpha in the 40s. That's *weak* for a Clan heavy, but a 40-point alpha ain't too shabby for most IS heavies. That's the rough mean for 3R Marauders.

I think it's this that causes IS pilots to roll their eyes when Clan pilots complain about their heat issues. Yes, their gear is hotter. But all of their weapons are lighter, use less crits, are better ranged, and do more damage. Their heat issues magnify when you're a Jenner packing a 72-point alpha strike! That's more one-click firepower than the best Marauder 3R builds, mechs that are twice the Jenner's weight. There is a reason I typically like to run a Timberwolf in the group queue, where there is more coordination and the opponents higher-ranked in tier than me. It gives me a fighting chance to contribute because it tanks like a Banshee, moves like a Wolverine (same speed, speed-tweaked as the base Quarantine, 87.1 kph), and packs the firepower of a Marauder...in their words, it tanks like a 90 tonner, moves like a 55 tonner, and hits like the rest of the 75 ton class it is in.

That's not too shabby.

I think you are mistaken the Timberwolf for the Blackknight....

#847 Drunk Gepard

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Posted 15 July 2016 - 12:18 PM

Hi all\ привет всем! (sorru for my poor english)

What can i say about game? - that im tired after 2 days of playing. Why? - because game has no good things,like it must be.
For example:
In MW4 Mercenaries - my favorite mech Gladiator has 3 hardslots for LBX20,that what i always used for close range fight. Yes,i know,that i cannot fight even on medium range and must run from wall to wall to not get the PPC in face,but when im close - thats was i do - im killing, im gladiator. I dont need the jumpjets.i need firepower,im the assault mech. im the gladiator.

What i have in this game? - i have stupid balance. Why stupid? - because i can put ONLY 1 LBX20 in my mech,and after this im the ASSAULT mech of 95 TONNS! My mech has lower firepower,than Orion mech from inner sphere in his 75 tonns! He can put 1 LBX20 + 4 medium lasers + 2 missles. he can put similar guns and take the similar firepower. He has more slots!

But in my Gladiator all slots takes armor which i dont need! I dont want defend,i want more guns!i want 2 LBX20 in my 95 tonns mech! Even with ballistic omnipod i have no place for second LBX20!There is not enogh slots! Gladiator have no missles in original MW4,thats ok..but here he cannot place even second heavy gun. Only laser guns,which need heatsink...and this is Gladiator?
I dont need jumpjets,but i cant remove it. I want place for more firepower,more guns...but i cant...

What in the end? - my assault mech with fixed jumpjets,armor,engine,case and etc. cannot be assault. This is kinda slow "gold" mech which is sucks in fight.

im fighting on trial Orion of inner sphere and do 500-600 damage in battle,on gladiator with different configurations of weapons - max 300 damage,but always near 150.

This game killed all my interest of donate and calling new players(im the leader of clan,thats near 50 players in other game).to this game.
Who will say about omnipods OP - what i will have with omnipods - if big part of omnipods is ALREADY fixed to armor,case and other...place will left only for small and medium guns...IN ASSAULT MECH,damn it!
Seems the innersphere mech is much better,than clans,because they can REMOVE ALL WHAT THEY WANT from their mech,and place all WHAT THEY WANT. But clans CANT,and this calling innovation! Almost all fixed and taking slots,what i dont need!

2.Water. Not giving cooling down??? Not stopping mech??? Mech running fully under water with 140 km\h?? OH GOD, is this realy 2016? not a 1996,that engine of game cant do this?

3. Light mech not falling after 2-3 heavy shots in him? oh god,he is still running! 2-3 light mech can easyly kill an assault mech,oh god...for what i need armor? thats sucks.

4.Space have no atmoshpere,so it has no cooling. Why open space has +23 temp,is it joke?

im so sad after playing, i waited much more from game which i so like. but game even not tried to be better,game in game engine going back, so many stupid things...

PS. why i can fight much longer with standart armor with similar settings on Orion,and so fast dying with ferrofibro armor with much more armor on gladiator? i hope this is an a bug.

Anyway,only few days i need to see that new game is became worse than MW4 Merc.

Only visual is better. regress in my eyes.

thanks.

Edited by Drunk Gepard, 15 July 2016 - 01:17 PM.


#848 Kara Ben Nemsi

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Posted 16 July 2016 - 08:54 AM

View PostDrunk Gepard, on 15 July 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

What i have in this game? - i have stupid balance. Why stupid? - because i can put ONLY 1 LBX20 in my mech,and after this im the ASSAULT mech of 95 TONNS! My mech has lower firepower,than Orion mech from inner sphere in his 75 tonns! He can put 1 LBX20 + 4 medium lasers + 2 missles. he can put similar guns and take the similar firepower. He has more slots!

No IS Mech can mount a LBX20. There is no IS LBX20 in MWO.

View PostDrunk Gepard, on 15 July 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Seems the innersphere mech is much better,than clans,because they can REMOVE ALL WHAT THEY WANT from their mech,and place all WHAT THEY WANT. But clans CANT,and this calling innovation! Almost all fixed and taking slots,what i dont need!

IS Mechs have fixed harpoints, Clans can change Omni Pods

=> Clan OP, plz nerf



#849 Baulven

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 05:53 AM

View PostNomex 09, on 16 July 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

No IS Mech can mount a LBX20. There is no IS LBX20 in MWO.


IS Mechs have fixed harpoints, Clans can change Omni Pods

=> Clan OP, plz nerf



We also can't change any mech that comes without ferro or endo, can't change engine sizes, jump jets, or other fixed slots. Clans really aren't overpowered if you force them into your preferred engagement zone which is where 80% or so of most matches occur.

#850 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 03:44 PM

This thread is 2 years old, do you believe PGI is watching this thread? Maybe they are, but instead of giving Clans things they are taking away or reducing things from IS.

Besides, as CJF shows, a faction needs a booming population to do anything, CGB forget it is time to come out of hibernation. And you can not gain worlds if you only drop in Defense games instead of the Attack planet. Or not, since appears that FP is not really PGI focal point, and it does not really matter in the Solo/Group queue, the Clan and IS tech helps in each other's shortcomings.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 July 2016 - 03:46 PM.


#851 ghoost dragoon

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 10:25 AM

View Postdrunkblackstar, on 05 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Well... This is awful.

Sorry, I'd like to be more positive and understand your point if view, but this thoughts are just opposite of what I want from MWO.


BOO!

#852 ghoost dragoon

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 10:36 AM

I hit u so many times! HA! HA! U like dat' or no? Either way, HA! HA! lol

,Caiesper

#853 Remover of Obstacles

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 03:16 PM

I know this is going to be met with resistance from the lore faction,

but can we just make I.S. XL engines require both side torso to be destroyed to take out a mech?

Immediate Time-To-Kill Improvement.

#854 Gorgo7

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 10:49 AM

Clan is pretty decent right now although there is a faction agitating for Omni's to be allowed to swap-out their Endo and Ferris at will as the IS does. Mention 10 slot XL engines for the IS though and they are less than happy.
If 10 slot XL engines become a feature with the IS the game breaks down as factions become a choice of colours as opposed to different tech trees.

#855 Baulven

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 04:48 AM

View PostGorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Clan is pretty decent right now although there is a faction agitating for Omni's to be allowed to swap-out their Endo and Ferris at will as the IS does. Mention 10 slot XL engines for the IS though and they are less than happy.
If 10 slot XL engines become a feature with the IS the game breaks down as factions become a choice of colours as opposed to different tech trees.


I would like to see certain hardpoint starved omnis get ES/FF options (summoner) but I dont think it's necessary as a universal thing. It's either that or massive quirks, or rebuilding it from the ground up.

#856 Pilot Reel

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:16 PM

SWOL now jumping the clan ship. Can anyone see the line Russ drew where he has let this go to far. Imbalance is a horrible understatement. The mass exodus of large clan units is almost complete. Thanks for being fair, Truth is we can't beat the mechs. IS loyalist and merc's will stand in line to challenge that statement or any statement complaining of imbalance. Oh we're working together, coordinated, following drop coms. We're organized!

Dude Please! Your mechs are substantially OP!

Well, CWI is almost all that's left and little units like mine. Can't blame them for leaving who wants to loose in the clan mechs all day to mostly inferior pilots in OP quirked out IS mechs? Hard to keep a clan unit together. No one mech or update seems to actually shift the imbalance back without some further quirking the OP of the IS.

And RUSS! of coarse we are going to complain and get mad and blame. We're LOYALISTS and passionate about OUR GAME, OUR FACTION!

Update T.O.S. so you can sleep better at night? Can't call out obvious cheaters and their abuse and use of Helios in game play because it might get you banned? What is that about? Do you own stock? There is IMBALANCE! FIX IT! There is CHEATING! FIX IT! You'll sleep like a baby and the wheel will quit squeaking.

I would like to point out that I did not refer to any one player as a cheater. NEW TOS OK
At no time did I use profanity "Toxic" in this message. NEW TOS OK
While strongly emphasizing my point, no threats were made to people or persons employed by PGI. NEW TOS OK

JUST FIX IT!







Pilot Reel
GCOM
Strike Wolf

Edited by Pilot Reel, 26 July 2016 - 10:32 PM.


#857 Nathanel Kerensky

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:52 PM

View PostWalsung, on 07 March 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

clan damage per ton per heat ~ 30% with a slight range advantage greater then IS equivalent with more flexible pod space except lasers which are only about 5-8% with a ~25% range advantage. the XL engines decreased crit sensitivity is worth 10-15% in durability. I can't find stat differences between IS and clan double heat sinks that someone said above which may affect this but there only seem to be only a few IS mechs that are quirked in useful ways to this level.

So I am not sure why people are complaining about clan mechs comparative fire power (from the clan side)

Are you kidding ?? Us clanners are not upset because our mechs are not the force they are in the table top game . We are pissed because the I.S. mechs are buffed so high that a medium I.S. mech can core out a Clan heavy before we have hardly scratched the paint on the I.S. !! And thats before people start with the cheating !! If I were not such a big fan of Battletech I'd have quit this game months ago . I can see how players who know nothing of the lore and feel no attachment to any side either quit or go right over to I.S., and for the amount of Cash that is charged for mechs I really expected more of a fair turn from PGI

#858 Nathanel Kerensky

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:57 PM

View PostNomex 09, on 16 July 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

No IS Mech can mount a LBX20. There is no IS LBX20 in MWO.


IS Mechs have fixed harpoints, Clans can change Omni Pods

=> Clan OP, plz nerf




Oh yeah soooo over powered all our mechs cost 60-80% more than I.S. , we have %60-70% of our internals taken up by immovable items , Takes us longer to do the same damage , have almost no mechs with armor or structure quirks ,and most of our weapon hard points are all in our arms . How are we OP again ??

#859 visionGT4

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 11:28 PM

ClanXl, lightweight weapons, 7 slot endo/FF, 2 slot DHS, clanXL.

Oh did i mention clanXL

Edited by visionGT4, 26 July 2016 - 11:29 PM.


#860 Aerei

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 10:16 AM

View PostNathanel Kerensky, on 26 July 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

Oh yeah soooo over powered all our mechs cost 60-80% more than I.S. , we have %60-70% of our internals taken up by immovable items , Takes us longer to do the same damage , have almost no mechs with armor or structure quirks ,and most of our weapon hard points are all in our arms . How are we OP again ??


Okay, first of all, cost doesn't mean **** in terms of game balance. Let's just get that out of the way, right now.

As for questions of actual balance, one advantage clan mechs do enjoy is much less reliance on quirks. With all the knee jerk quirk nerfs, good IS mechs can become garbage in a patch or two, while mechs like the Timberwolf, Ebon Jag, and Hunchback IIC largely keep their competitive viability thanks to low weight, good engines, clan XL, superior range on any pokey deck, and the ability to boat on omni mechs. I'll use the range as an example. If an IS mech had medium lasers with the same range as clan lasers, it would need something like a 50% range quirk--something PGI on record doesn't like doing with any kind of quirk. Clan mechs, essentially, enjoy that as a natural state of their weapons.

TL;DR, quirks are not what makes good clan mechs good, the base strengths that these mechs have make them good, and those get nerfed far, far less often than IS.

I'm not saying that needs to change, either, but if that is the case, IS quirks need to be handled more carefully than the monthly nerf fest we see right now.





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