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Clan Balance Update - Feedback


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#861 Battlemaster56

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Posted 02 August 2016 - 06:25 AM

View PostAerei, on 29 July 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:


Okay, first of all, cost doesn't mean **** in terms of game balance. Let's just get that out of the way, right now.

As for questions of actual balance, one advantage clan mechs do enjoy is much less reliance on quirks. With all the knee jerk quirk nerfs, good IS mechs can become garbage in a patch or two, while mechs like the Timberwolf, Ebon Jag, and Hunchback IIC largely keep their competitive viability thanks to low weight, good engines, clan XL, superior range on any pokey deck, and the ability to boat on omni mechs. I'll use the range as an example. If an IS mech had medium lasers with the same range as clan lasers, it would need something like a 50% range quirk--something PGI on record doesn't like doing with any kind of quirk. Clan mechs, essentially, enjoy that as a natural state of their weapons.

TL;DR, quirks are not what makes good clan mechs good, the base strengths that these mechs have make them good, and those get nerfed far, far less often than IS.

I'm not saying that needs to change, either, but if that is the case, IS quirks need to be handled more carefully than the monthly nerf fest we see right now.


I think people want some other mechs to be just as viable as the the Timberwolf, Cauldron Born, Hunchie IIC-A, Stormcrow, and Kodiak(Their some other clan mechs to in the top teir list). The Clan arsenal don't have a lot options just because most Clans mechs don't carry a lot firepower( yes their are some that can but have some serious drawbacks), or have a **** ton of lock equipment.

And peek and poke deck not really that good with all that range when your opponent can just laugh and spread the damage like butter, also true IS mechs do lose their top tier status in the quirk department, but another mech will take it spot and it usually one that can carry a boatload of weapons(usually the same weapon type).

Balance is nice atm but I still believe that top tier mechs( or variant) both IS and Clan should have little to no quirks, and mechs ( or variants) that is doing terrible should get compensation to help them be viable, also last time we had quirks that offer 50% range boost their was a shitton erll boats that range goes to 900+ m and I know because I did abuse thoses mechs.

TL:DR Clans need more viable mechs than the usual goto group, IS top tier mechs get basiclly the same quirks that the last one had,quirks need to be use for only low performing mech and or variants that can barely compete

#862 Aerei

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 02:12 PM

View PostBattlemaster56, on 02 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

I think people want some other mechs to be just as viable as the the Timberwolf, Cauldron Born, Hunchie IIC-A, Stormcrow, and Kodiak(Their some other clan mechs to in the top teir list). The Clan arsenal don't have a lot options just because most Clans mechs don't carry a lot firepower( yes their are some that can but have some serious drawbacks), or have a **** ton of lock equipment.


Agreed. Many complaints about IS are the same. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind the lower tier clan mechs getting love either but at least that particular imbalance isn't making faction warfare borderline FUBAR.

View PostBattlemaster56, on 02 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

And peek and poke deck not really that good with all that range when your opponent can just laugh and spread the damage like butter, also true IS mechs do lose their top tier status in the quirk department, but another mech will take it spot and it usually one that can carry a boatload of weapons(usually the same weapon type).


Disagreed on both counts. Some of the top performing teams in PGI's tournament have been poking against brawl decks.

As for IS mechs, here's the problem with the logic you put out--yes, new mechs are stepping up to top IS mech status, but that's relatively speaking. Very few of the new top mechs are top because they were buffed; instead, they take the top because they were nerfed less. The problem is that the best IS mechs are generally the best because of their quirks (at least when fighting their clan bretheren), whereas the best clan mechs (Kodiak, Timber Wolf,, Hunchback IIC) are just naturally good, regardless of quirks, so PGI is less likely to nerf them in a way that's relevant. The nerf to the Kodiak's structure has had no effect on its status as one of--if not the best--mech in the game.

View PostBattlemaster56, on 02 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

Balance is nice atm but I still believe that top tier mechs( or variant) both IS and Clan should have little to no quirks, and mechs ( or variants) that is doing terrible should get compensation to help them be viable, also last time we had quirks that offer 50% range boost their was a shitton erll boats that range goes to 900+ m and I know because I did abuse thoses mechs.


I'd be okay with that, but part of the problem is that quirks were introduced because clan technology was so vastly superior without quirks. Try using weapons that an IS mech has no quirks for whatsoever, and you'll see how bad that is. Now...50% quirks were a bit nuts, but now PGI's gone too far in the opposite direction. PGI really needs to find a theme to make IS mechs different, but viable. Both sides should excel at some things, but be passable otherwise. It's pretty bad when one faction (clans) have better range play, and then some experts point out that clans are also better brawlers. That's about as balanced as a scale with sixty tons on one side, and empty on the other.

View PostBattlemaster56, on 02 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

TL:DR Clans need more viable mechs than the usual goto group, IS top tier mechs get basiclly the same quirks that the last one had,quirks need to be use for only low performing mech and or variants that can barely compete


TL'DR Yes that would be nce, but we need balance between factions first. PGI needs to intelligently decide how to handle quirks, and then give those changes time to settle. Thirty days is too short a time for this.

Edit: I'm honestly expecting the Marauder IIC to clearly illustrate these problems if nothing changes before its release--with identical hardpoints and only 10 tons separating it from its IS counterpart, early builds are showing it with more firepower, more armor, and more speed than its IS counterpart. If that doesn't make it obvious to the devs and the community, I don't know what will.

Edited by Aerei, 06 August 2016 - 02:42 PM.


#863 CK16

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 06:15 PM

View PostAerei, on 06 August 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:


Agreed. Many complaints about IS are the same. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind the lower tier clan mechs getting love either but at least that particular imbalance isn't making faction warfare borderline FUBAR.



Disagreed on both counts. Some of the top performing teams in PGI's tournament have been poking against brawl decks.

As for IS mechs, here's the problem with the logic you put out--yes, new mechs are stepping up to top IS mech status, but that's relatively speaking. Very few of the new top mechs are top because they were buffed; instead, they take the top because they were nerfed less. The problem is that the best IS mechs are generally the best because of their quirks (at least when fighting their clan bretheren), whereas the best clan mechs (Kodiak, Timber Wolf,, Hunchback IIC) are just naturally good, regardless of quirks, so PGI is less likely to nerf them in a way that's relevant. The nerf to the Kodiak's structure has had no effect on its status as one of--if not the best--mech in the game.



I'd be okay with that, but part of the problem is that quirks were introduced because clan technology was so vastly superior without quirks. Try using weapons that an IS mech has no quirks for whatsoever, and you'll see how bad that is. Now...50% quirks were a bit nuts, but now PGI's gone too far in the opposite direction. PGI really needs to find a theme to make IS mechs different, but viable. Both sides should excel at some things, but be passable otherwise. It's pretty bad when one faction (clans) have better range play, and then some experts point out that clans are also better brawlers. That's about as balanced as a scale with sixty tons on one side, and empty on the other.



TL'DR Yes that would be nce, but we need balance between factions first. PGI needs to intelligently decide how to handle quirks, and then give those changes time to settle. Thirty days is too short a time for this.

Edit: I'm honestly expecting the Marauder IIC to clearly illustrate these problems if nothing changes before its release--with identical hardpoints and only 10 tons separating it from its IS counterpart, early builds are showing it with more firepower, more armor, and more speed than its IS counterpart. If that doesn't make it obvious to the devs and the community, I don't know what will.


You saying an 85 tonner should be balanced to the 75 tonner? Ummmmm no, nope. Bad idea

#864 Battlemaster56

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 07:00 PM

The MADIIC is gonna come with no quirks for all variants since kinda obvious still believe in the god like clan laser boats (to a degree their powerful burst damage alpha wise is impressive, but they're gonna be limited to their heat), I wouldn't be suprise if throw in negative quirks to keep it at bay from become crazy.

AlsoI believe pgi need to add the IS counter parts of uacs lbxs( kinda iffy since rarely anyone pick these up), and er lasers, (because it kinda silly trying to balance std lasers to er lasers if the IS have er lasers then we can get rid of the energy quirks other than ppc's).

And I believe the real night that's gonna come is Warhammer IIC we all know it coming and seeing well the IS Warhammer preforms, the IIC gonna be a nightmare.

#865 Aerei

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 08:27 AM

Yeah .The only thing that would hurt the Warhammer IIC is if the hitboxes really, really suck. It says a lot when a mech is nerfed for three patches and is still solid.

I don't know about negative quirks though. I have the feeling if PGI was going to start doing more of that, they would have done it with the Kodiak nerf given how dominating it is compared to other assaults from either faction.

On an unrelated note...

View PostCK16, on 06 August 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

You saying an 85 tonner should be balanced to the 75 tonner? Ummmmm no, nope. Bad idea


This here. Soak it in. This is the example of a weak, thoughtless argument.

Why? Well, if he take his logic at face value, it means that higher tonnage should largely mean strictly better than lighter mechs. This disrupts game balance. But even if he was right, it still hurts the argument he's trying to place about the IS Marauder against the Marauder IIC. You see....that would require nerfing the Timber Wolf, or buffing mechs like the Victor. Or both. A proper argument, even when actually civil and thought out, tends to try and undermine the other person's point.

#866 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 07:17 PM

View PostAerei, on 07 August 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Yeah .The only thing that would hurt the Warhammer IIC is if the hitboxes really, really suck. It says a lot when a mech is nerfed for three patches and is still solid.

I don't know about negative quirks though. I have the feeling if PGI was going to start doing more of that, they would have done it with the Kodiak nerf given how dominating it is compared to other assaults from either faction.

On an unrelated note...



This here. Soak it in. This is the example of a weak, thoughtless argument.

Why? Well, if he take his logic at face value, it means that higher tonnage should largely mean strictly better than lighter mechs. This disrupts game balance. But even if he was right, it still hurts the argument he's trying to place about the IS Marauder against the Marauder IIC. You see....that would require nerfing the Timber Wolf, or buffing mechs like the Victor. Or both. A proper argument, even when actually civil and thought out, tends to try and undermine the other person's point.

Mechs should all be balanced, but Balanced in turn,
for Example your never ganna get a LCT balanced to a AS7,

Mechs should be balanced to Others that share their Weight First(85Tonners to 85Tonners)
than balanced to other Mechs in their Weight Class(Mediums to Mediums and so on)
and finally between classes, but this type of balance isnt always using the same,
for instance Lights get More Manuverable, where Assaults get more Structure,

if one Faction has a Clear Advantage(which i this time i dont See Clan Tech as Superior)
then it should be brought down more, or IS tech needs to be Brought up some for balance,
right now only C-XL Engines are a problem, all other Clan Advantages are Null at this Point,

#867 Requiemking

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 08:53 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 07 August 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Mechs should all be balanced, but Balanced in turn,
for Example your never ganna get a LCT balanced to a AS7,

Mechs should be balanced to Others that share their Weight First(85Tonners to 85Tonners)
than balanced to other Mechs in their Weight Class(Mediums to Mediums and so on)
and finally between classes, but this type of balance isnt always using the same,
for instance Lights get More Manuverable, where Assaults get more Structure,

if one Faction has a Clear Advantage(which i this time i dont See Clan Tech as Superior)
then it should be brought down more, or IS tech needs to be Brought up some for balance,
right now only C-XL Engines are a problem, all other Clan Advantages are Null at this Point,

Clan XLs aren't even as much off a problem any more. Really, not even their supposedly OP gifts to Clan mechs can justify why a Mist Lynx is as expensive as most IS Heavies. Right now, Clan mech are good at 600+ meter ranges, where they can use their higher mobility to reposition while cooling off. There are some QP maps that favour this, such as Alpine and the LRMlands. But, the FP maps all favour Brawling and mid-range alphapoking, something that Is does supremely well due to short duration on lasers, pinpoint burst damage from ACs, clusterfire from missiles, and all around cooler weapons.

#868 ghoost dragoon

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 02:52 PM

View PostNuclearPanda, on 05 September 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Chimed in to say that I'm thoroughly disappointed and feel it's quite lazy to write off 10v12 completely. I would understand why it would NOT be an option at this time, but to write it off so blatantly like you did within the post makes me a sad panda.

This game is moving further and further away from being an actual Mechwarrior title into being Generic Robot Shooter XXVIV.


U right 'bout dat. Don't look much like mechwarrior anymore. Dat cuz microsoft greedy!Posted Image

#869 xe N on

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 12:03 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 07 August 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Mechs should all be balanced, but Balanced in turn,
for Example your never ganna get a LCT balanced to a AS7,


Firepower wise, yes. However, you can balance 20 ton vs 100 ton mechs, however, they will perform different roles and excel in that.

Let's image quick play maps with capture able objectives, that don't count toward to win as capture points, but provide an advantage.

Outposts: can be captures and provide UAV-support as well as a LRM 5 launcher (5 bases per map)
Artillery / air craft bases: Can be captured and refill all strike modules
Supply depots: As long as captured your team gets a 20% bonus to ammunition amount.

#870 Black Lanner

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 01:08 AM

I have a point that I haven't seen anyone really bring up...

THE CLANS DO NOT BALANCE AGAINST THE INNER SPHERE

The Lore put the Clans as nearly unstoppable... only because Zellbrigen and Batchalls were being used against them caused them to be stopped. You want the tech to be comparable? Advance the storyline to the point to where the I.S. has VSPLs, XPLs, and Clan tech ERLs. Where the I.S. can purchase mechs from the Diamond Sharks, such as the Mad Cat MK II and MK III. Where Light Fusion engines and Heavy Gauss Rifles are commonplace in Stiner Mechs. C3 Kurita Mechs blasting away with MRMs and the alternative PPC's. Davion mechs like the Templar letting rip with RACs and advanced AC munitions. Liao and their Stealth armor and Plasma Rifles. Marik running around with more of their Trebuchets, Orions, and Awesomes... anyways... Also adding the Com Guards and Word of Blake as factions along with their mechs and tech would be game changing. Make their Mechs and Technology Faction exclusive.

Don't forget the Clans get ATMs, HAGs, AP Gauss, Plasma Cannons, and Heavy Lasers...

Also, everyone can has improved JJ and partial wings...

Addendum:

Also, give the I.S. more advanced consumables and put heavy restrictions on the consumables the Clans have access to.

Another thing, in regards to Omnimechs, they can be quickly reconfigured... part of what makes them so deadly, so to reflect this I suggest that before a match, a player with an Omni chooses the mech, but not the variant. After the voting in PUG or just before the start of the map in faction play is when the player chooses the configuration of the mech.

Edited by Black Lanner, 14 September 2016 - 01:20 AM.


#871 Battlemaster56

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 05:51 AM

View PostBlack Lanner, on 14 September 2016 - 01:08 AM, said:

I have a point that I haven't seen anyone really bring up...

THE CLANS DO NOT BALANCE AGAINST THE INNER SPHERE

The Lore put the Clans as nearly unstoppable... only because Zellbrigen and Batchalls were being used against them caused them to be stopped. You want the tech to be comparable? Advance the storyline to the point to where the I.S. has VSPLs, XPLs, and Clan tech ERLs. Where the I.S. can purchase mechs from the Diamond Sharks, such as the Mad Cat MK II and MK III. Where Light Fusion engines and Heavy Gauss Rifles are commonplace in Stiner Mechs. C3 Kurita Mechs blasting away with MRMs and the alternative PPC's. Davion mechs like the Templar letting rip with RACs and advanced AC munitions. Liao and their Stealth armor and Plasma Rifles. Marik running around with more of their Trebuchets, Orions, and Awesomes... anyways... Also adding the Com Guards and Word of Blake as factions along with their mechs and tech would be game changing. Make their Mechs and Technology Faction exclusive.

Don't forget the Clans get ATMs, HAGs, AP Gauss, Plasma Cannons, and Heavy Lasers...

Also, everyone can has improved JJ and partial wings...

Addendum:

Also, give the I.S. more advanced consumables and put heavy restrictions on the consumables the Clans have access to.

Another thing, in regards to Omnimechs, they can be quickly reconfigured... part of what makes them so deadly, so to reflect this I suggest that before a match, a player with an Omni chooses the mech, but not the variant. After the voting in PUG or just before the start of the map in faction play is when the player chooses the configuration of the mech.

We could simply give IS the rest their ER Lasers, Streaks, UAC's, LBX's and then remove quirks since they're not need because each side is at the same level and it would be easy and won't to much time to do.

#872 Black Lanner

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 07:00 PM

View PostBattlemaster56, on 14 September 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

We could simply give IS the rest their ER Lasers, Streaks, UAC's, LBX's and then remove quirks since they're not need because each side is at the same level and it would be easy and won't to much time to do.


Except that the Clans still have the upperhand on 2 points, weight and crits... by a huge margin.

Hey, my I.S. has space for DHS and Endo Steel.

Oh yeah? my Clan 'mech can have DHS in the legs and in the same space you put your Endo, I can put MY Endo AND Ferro!

It isn't until you get into vastly different tech that things start to even out a little. In the TT, the I.S. 'Mechs that give me the the biggest headache (running clan or otherwise) are the Shadowhawk SHD-5D in particular but really any 'mech that runs a RAC5, TR2/ TR3 Wraiths and other C3/ C3i mechs, also, any Melee 'mech with TSM.

Make the Victor great again... VTR-11D!
Endo steel, Light Fusion, RAC5, 2ERLL, C3 slave, SSRM4, CASE, 4JJ
This is a mech I really dislike in the TT!!!
...unless I am the one running it in a C3 Lance.

Edited by Black Lanner, 14 September 2016 - 07:06 PM.


#873 Battlemaster56

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 07:46 PM

View PostBlack Lanner, on 14 September 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:


Except that the Clans still have the upperhand on 2 points, weight and crits... by a huge margin.

Hey, my I.S. has space for DHS and Endo Steel.

Oh yeah? my Clan 'mech can have DHS in the legs and in the same space you put your Endo, I can put MY Endo AND Ferro!

It isn't until you get into vastly different tech that things start to even out a little. In the TT, the I.S. 'Mechs that give me the the biggest headache (running clan or otherwise) are the Shadowhawk SHD-5D in particular but really any 'mech that runs a RAC5, TR2/ TR3 Wraiths and other C3/ C3i mechs, also, any Melee 'mech with TSM.

Make the Victor great again... VTR-11D!
Endo steel, Light Fusion, RAC5, 2ERLL, C3 slave, SSRM4, CASE, 4JJ
This is a mech I really dislike in the TT!!!
...unless I am the one running it in a C3 Lance.

The crit space isn't by much like 1-4 crits and weight is like 1-2 tons. Also I'm not familiar with Battletech TT and the only exposure I got from it from the forums.

#874 Black Lanner

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:02 PM

When you can fit a ERLL in the head or a ERPPC in the CT, it can become a big deal. When you have to spend an extra slot and tonnage for CASE (Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment- so your 'mech doesn't detonate if someone else crits the ammo bin), vs. not having to do either because it comes Built-in. All of these things make a HUGE difference, especially with Heavies and Assaults that have to balance between tonnage and available space. Another example: CLRMs weigh in at half what the I.S. LRMs do. So I can have my Night Gyr with 4 CA\LRM 20s, a CMPL, and a CLPL. Show me a I.S. 'mech that can LRM boat like this and have a couple back-up lasers AND not be either 30KPH slow or a glass cannon...

Now, I wrote my post assuming people would know the lore, for those that do not, here is a break down of the things I was taking about in the above post...

RAC- Rotary Autocannon, comes in 2 and 5, notable because while the UAC can fire twice as fast as the standard, the RAC can fire 6 times as quickly...

C3/C3i- Command/Control/Communications (improved), advanced targeting equipment that works by linking the computers of the 'mechs of a unit for greater information sharing. Standard C3 systems use one 'mech as the Master computer (5 tons/ 5 crits) and the other three mechs use one ton/ one crit "Slave" computers, also Masters can be slaved to other Masters and you can build a network of 12 units, the loss of a Master kills the network for the units slaved to it. Comstar/ Word of Blake units have access to the C3i which removes the need for master computers, each uses 2 crits and weighs in a 2.5 tons, and you can link 6 units this way.

TSM or Triple Strength Myomers... basically in the lore, the 'Mechs use Myomers which are an "artificial analog of biological muscles" to quote the lore. TSM is a special version of this that when the 'Mech runs hot, the speed of the 'Mech increases and physical attacks do twice the damage. TSM does not work with MASC.

Light Fusion Engines: XL Fusions are half the weight, but the I.S. version cannot lose a torso... so I give you the Light Engine at 2/3 the weight and takes up space like a Clan XL.

Edited by Black Lanner, 19 September 2016 - 07:08 PM.


#875 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:46 AM

It's too bad that PGI has forgotten these words

Quirks are getting weaker and weaker and it is getting harder and harder to justify taking IS mechs

Many of the amazing quirks and their combinations that made chassis outstanding are now gone

With the upcoming skill tree system, we are essentially removing the uniqueness of individual mechs beyond their hardpoints by allowing players to choose their own quirks, except many of those skills are unwanted, not useful, or completely overshadowed by the better options (upper chassis, jumpjets, UAV tree in particular come to mind)

We are also quirking clan mechs that have never needed quirking, but at the same time hurting IS mechs and the weakest of the clan mechs by allowing the overperformers to quirk themselves in absurd ways

Clan power creep has been very strong recently as well, with clan mechs holding every weight class by the throat-- new omni pods have spiked the power of some chassis and clan heroes have revealed their ugly head, showing why releasing them was a bad idea. The spirit bear and scorch are the new atlas. The new warrant and nanuq omni pods allow fearsome new configurations. All while we have had whatever IS chassis that has come close to matching the ridiculous power clan mechs have nerfed into obscurity. The blackjack and black knight are the extreme examples-- thunderbolts are irrelevant again-- highlanders have fallen to disuse-- warhammers are the last good chassis left in the heavy lineup and they are glass cannons that don't even match the cannon of a clan mech

Furthermore, it seems this behavior is absolutely intended. Clan heroes, and mech packs that were almost exclusively clan mechs have flooded the store, with a few mediocre IS mechs sprinkled in that have come out with even more mediocre abilities

The recent Sweet "Deals" With MC have shown blatant bias to the higher bidder, giving them powerful clan heroes for spending a lot of money, whereas the lower tier rewards for less money are the IS heroes, many of which have faded into obscurity

The future of this game is in jeopardy and PGI as a company is driving it to an arcade shooter in which the higher paying customers get the highest power mechs-- this is no longer a BattleTech game, or even a MechWarrior game.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 20 February 2017 - 12:50 PM.


#876 Christophe Ivanov

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:00 PM

Id rather get higher powered equipment, weapons, radars, etc. through ACHEIVEMENTS or C-bills under the current system instead of spending my real money. Save that for buying mechs.

Another thing is, let the player sell his unused mechs to other players. It's like what I see would happen if your in a real world environment. As a Freelancer, I would buy whatever mech I could afford or need ad if I saw one for sale beyond the PGI store.

Of course, PGI would get a cut of the sales regardless as something like this would need to keep the game going.

Just my thoughts folks.





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