162 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 September 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Clan Nerfs WERE needed.


Few intelligent and honest players would deny that.

Few intelligent and honest players would deny that they over nerfed many things, nerfed things that did not need it, and also approached the nerfs in the WRONG way.

We got 8 new mechs, and a bevy of weapons. SOme indeed were/are OP, and some were borderline. 2 Mechs, the Twolf and Stormcrow, qualified as broken, and a couple of the builds the Dwolf is capable of.

By aggressively nerfing, with HEAT most of the weapons, the other 5 chassis that were marginal to bad, to begin with just became worse than most IS equivalents. If you really think the Summoner or Adder are OP, you need to simply uninstall the game now and walk away.

But the nerfs, as done, did NOTHING to stop or slow down MetaWhales (PPC/Gauss Direwolf) or DakkaWhales, the 2 "broken, meta approved" DWolf variants. While slowing certain TWolf builds down (actually, my primaries really have not even noticed, funny that, when you don't need to boat to win), it is still far and away superior to all the other heavy Chassis. But thanks to the nerfs the Summoner is now with the Dragon in the crap pile. Good job, that.

Likewise, my Stormcrows actually received a buff, with Streaks getting shorter cooldown.

Before the last sets of nerfs, Pulse lasers were being used, not because they were good, but because LPL had a far shorter cooldown than the ERLarge, so it was less BAD. It is still far from optimal. And MPL and SPL? WHo in the heck was complaining those were OP?

Hint: NOBODY.

The issues, is that most of the balance was in the design of 2 chassis, far more than in the weapons themselves. And in some cases, the obvious answer, was that the IS weapons needed a buff, like IS Mlasers and SLasers both of which run hotter than they should. As for Clan Pulse lasers? At what point does ANYONE consider 4 MPL and a LB-10X some type of game breaking, assault caliber arsenal? And yet, due to continued heat nerfs, a Summoner with that armament was shutdowning down after a mere two volleys with that, on Forest Colony.

So yes, Clan Mechs needed Nerfs. They needed some weapons nerfed, INTELLIGENTLY (hint, heat is not always the answer) and some Chassis, through Quirks (such as, the Twolf. It's base nature is the perfect storm for effectiveness. Can't really change it's speed, armor or payload. You CAN make it much less agile (nothing in Fluff actually denotes it being particularly thus) and make it very fast with inline speed, designed for blitzkrieg attacks, but not so quick to turn and such. There are dozens of thing that COULD have been done.

But while Clan NErfs were needed, they were needed to be handled better than this lazy, generic sweep approach.

Actually I almost 100% agree with this post though I am not as sure as you are that the Stromcrow is broken. It is a good mech but I haven't really heard or seen anyone really complaining about them. I mean I don't think I have seen one single post saying "OMG I was killed by a Stormcrow...OP NERF NOW!!" hehe. That being the case, they seem to have a pretty good balance going for them. People who like them, generally like them while those fighting against them don't feel like the can't compete. No arguments and no complaints.

As for the rest, your 100% on target though. For example, even I will admit that the C-ER ML was just too good. Even with a 400m range, 6 heat and 7 damage, it just competes too closely with an IS LL, a weapon that weighs 5 times as much. However the issue isn't really its range and definitely isn't its heat, its due to its damage. It is a medium class weapon so should have medium class damage. Instead of heat moving up to 6, we should have seen damage decreased to 6. This would have reined in boating damage capability substantially without having a cascading side effect on every other weapon a chassis might also mount. Remember, a heat nerf doesn't just effect the weapon that was nerfed, if effects every weapon mounted on a mech.

Same goes with the C-ER LL. Sure it needed a range nerf, absolutely, but we saw and are still seeing a 20% increase in its heat generation and longer burn times. Instead, we should see damage take the hit.

Also your likely right about the Timber Wolf. Though I don't find the chassis to really be overpowered (really it is just a good mech) it might not hurt to reduce its turning and climbing ability a bit and perhaps slow down its transverse rate, things like this. Also fixing the JJs into the S variant omnipods might also help balance them a bit (though my JJ capable TW is by far my weakest variant but lets just assume I suck at this variant hehe).

All these balancing changes could have been made rather that a general heat increase across the board with laser weapons, an increase that really broken many builds and on some occasions, broke mechs (Nova has a hard, hard time with heat now, no matter what build you use).

[Aresye]

Hoax415, on 08 September 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Using a Mad Cat during this long period of pay2win and denying how OP it is on the forums has been bad sportsmanship. Claiming you earned your ridiculous avg match scores for all these months as the nerfs were soooo slow in coming from PGI.

I've been a Timberwolf pilot since MW2, I earned my bloodname in a Timberwolf in MW4, and in MW4: Mercs where everybody was running PPC/Gauss Nova Cats and Black Knights, I was one of the few Timberwolves out there (seriously, almost nobody piloted a Timberwolf in MW4: Mercs).

Long story short, the Timberwolf is my mech. I won my bloodname in it, I'm in the Clan that designed and most predominantly fields it, and I'm in a leadership role for that Clan and lead from the front with it. Has much less to do with how powerful it is, and more to do with it being a part of my own personal roleplay for it.

I've said many, many times before that I agree that Clan mechs are overpowered, and the Timberwolf especially in needing to be dialed down a bit, but the overall advantage is still being blown way out of proportion.

For example, take a guess how much my KDR has gone up since the Clans came out? I was at 3.97 before. Did it go up by 1? 2? 4?

Try 0.29

That's right. While piloting the most OP of all Clan mechs, regularly getting 1000+ matches, and even finishing 9th for Clan Heavies in the last leaderboard tournament with a score of 2602, my KDR after nearly 3 months of playing almost exclusively Clan mechs has increased by a measly 0.29.

Why? Well it's quite simple. I regularly got 1000+ matches before the Clans rolled out. I've gotten the Ace of Spades achievement 4 times in the 2 months prior to the Clan invasion, and only twice over the ~3 months the Clan mechs have been out.

Now, while my KDR's overall increase is relatively small, it is still an increase, which indicates that Clans do in fact have an advantage, which means there are nerfs needed to bring them in-line.

So are they overpowered? Yes. Are they so overpowered it's completely game-breaking? No. Are they overpowered enough for people to increase their KDR and W/L ratios? Just barely.

Edited by Aresye, 08 September 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[El Bandito]

Aresye, on 08 September 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Now, while my KDR's overall increase is relatively small, it is still an increase, which indicates that Clans do in fact have an advantage, which means there are nerfs needed to bring them in-line.

So are they overpowered? Yes. Are they so overpowered it's completely game-breaking? No. Are they overpowered enough for people to increase their KDR and W/L ratios? Just barely.

Let's see how the nerfs will affect them. On the other hand, you finished mastering those mechs, unlike me, who is going to start from basic tree.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 September 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Slepnir]

without the lore its just another FPS.

The real tragedy is that PGI already had the tools to make the game great-battle value instead of ELO, passive&active radar, 30 point heat scale, proper ECM, weapon hardpoint size restrictions, etc.... and they chose to ignore it forcing them into the death spiral of ghost heat, weapon nerfs, cassi quirks and so on.

On the issue of the clans being better, yesthey are and yes they should be. people forget they won at first but in the end they lost. the balacing factor aside from crits has always been numbers. playing clan was never an auto win because you always need to bring your A game the IS stopped the clan advance and then went on the offensive with operations bulldog and serpent.

Going to 12 V 12 was a mistake given the goal of bringing in the clans as opposed forces. it should have been what it always was-8V5 , a fair fight were either side could win without weapons or heatsink changes..

Its sad really when you consider what a bunch of fans pulled of with MWLL, doing a far better job of retaining lore while providing content.

[Johnny Z]

Hoax415, on 08 September 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Perhaps you should google the meaning of sportsmanship.

The entire point of the 10 v 12 concept is that it allows us to have clan chassis not be at the exact same power levels with IS chassis while having fair fights.

12 v 12 right now if its 100% clan vs 100% IS and we're playing for real is still a joke. Yes after all those nerfs. If the clan players are serious about winning and they are bringing the good clan chassis and good builds.

It is still not even close.

Prove me wrong. Post any TBR, SCR or DWF build from smurfy that you think a same weight IS mech can match. I'll wait.

Sportsmanship means not using unfair advantages. Using clan mechs if the system is designed to account for how powerful they are by giving the IS side a numerical advantage and a weight advantage is sporting.

Using a Mad Cat during this long period of pay2win and denying how OP it is on the forums has been bad sportsmanship. Claiming you earned your ridiculous avg match scores for all these months as the nerfs were soooo slow in coming from PGI.

Claiming the 90% winrate was totally because IS pilots are all newbs and all the master-race founders were in clan robots.

That was poor sportsmanship.

There is no inherent sportsmanship problem with 10v12 if the game is balanced to create a fair sporting environment under those conditions.

I know the meaning of sportsmanship from playing many sports. Rugby the toughest team sport on earth for one. Thats the proper way to learn sportsmanship. And dont even say the word north american football is tough,thats unionized rugby where everyone stands around most of the game in tights and helmets discussing actually getting something done. Rugby is a none stop battle the entire game. One of the main reason brits are so tough actually. A little known secret. Although the french and ozzies arnt bad either. Watching Japan in the last world cup was great also. Look now you got me started on talking rugby.

Sorry for the harsh reply, but thats how guys that once played rugby react to discussions about sportsmanship LOL.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2014 - 09:19 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

The IP is old, it needs to be brought into the new age of gaming. Not everyone knows about Battletech lore, especially the younger players.

I think its time to reinvent the IP, I mean, even the old art looks outdated and lame by modern standards. I'm glad PGI made mechs look more tankier and grittier.

A game needs balance to be fun, I'm all for balance. Though I've never found clan mechs to be OP, I'd take on a dire/timber with my Atlas anytime.

[FREDtheDEAD]

Dirkdaring, on 06 September 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

The clans are supposed to be far more powerful. Thats why they rolled the IS for a damn long time when they arrived.

Nerfs aren't needed because the clans are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. If anything, they are too weak right now. My jager can take on nearly any madcat and kick the you know what out of it 9 times out of 10.

But that makes for an impossible game where people will only play Clan.

There needs to be some way to balance Clan and IS in terms of the match. I would have gone with expensive repair and reload costs forcing people to play IS mechs until they could afford to get their Clan mech fixed, but PGI decided to get rid of the repair and reload part of the game so nothing you do has any effect on future matches.

[FREDtheDEAD]

Aresye, on 08 September 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

[snip]
So are they overpowered? Yes. Are they so overpowered it's completely game-breaking? No. Are they overpowered enough for people to increase their KDR and W/L ratios? Just barely.

Thanks for the essay.
There may be no problem now with mixed teams but the issue is with CW and Clan vs IS matches. Nerfing already nerfed Clan mechs to IS levels is the way PGI have decided to go. It's a very bland and lore breaking solution, IMHO. Repair costs or the apparently impossible to code 10v12 or 5v8 would be better solutions in terms of variety and gameplay but that's not going to happen.

[Codeine Radick]

I would say the Mechlab + Pilot Skill is a balance all its own. You have full control of what you take into the field, you can apply your experience to change your 'Mech in any way you need to, and i have seen many IS 'Mechs beat their clan tonnage equals.

In order to have a lack of balance is to have access to the "Overpowering" factor to be completely restricted. (Class vs Class in RPG or Race vs Race in RTS) And last i checked, there are no absolute restrictions preventing any player from acquiring the clan tech and using it. As well as clans and IS are mixed together on drops.

I would say clans have a slight edge which they are supposed to. Which is why they are the more expensive to purchase, and that should be satisfying to both BTLore Hardcores and the average gamers as well.

You work your way up to buy the finest gear. It is not uncommon in many successful games to have a Top Tier of equipment for those who invested the time into it. It is not " 'Mech Welfare Online" where everyone has to have perfectly even equipment effectiveness just because they demanded it and refused to work for it.

I see these cries for balance and think "Should we take away the 'Mechlab as well?"

Just how i see it. =)

[Joseph Mallan]

Russ was just this side of saying, "Joe Mallan, Shut up and wait." In the NG:NG Vlog. Guess he is Unaware my Parents, The Marine Corps and my Boss at work have also been unsuccessful at getting me to obey that request.


My wife has had some success, but as Russ doesn't grace my bed He will not have her success.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 September 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[cazidin]

I think that the Clans were nerfed a little too much and if PGI goes live with the numbers from Energy Draw, they'll be nerfed even more!

[Mcgral18]

It's only been two years


Joe Mallan was still here




But the PTS5 numbers were sickeningly powerful Clams, with good cERLLs and cERMLs, and all LPLs getting universally shat on.

[Mystere]

[Ace Selin]

I think he started from oldest post, because i cant find an older post i could legitimately discuss.

[Mcgral18]

Ace Selin, on 12 October 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

I think he started from oldest post, because i cant find an older post i could legitimately discuss.

I had a look too.


Patch notes of the post Paul 2s cERLL burn
I had a laugh



However, THAT was the oldest (7th) unlocked thread, while this is from the 9th

[RestosIII]

[McHoshi]

Yeah Nerf those Clan Mechs because they are still OP.

[cazidin]

Mystere, on 12 October 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

The Nefarious Necromancer strikes again! Will Batman and Robin be able to stop him this time or will they fall victim to Death's Hand? Find out in next weeks exciting episode!

Ace Selin, on 12 October 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

I think he started from oldest post, because i cant find an older post i could legitimately discuss.

RestosIII, on 12 October 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

But how many mana points do I need to play that card?

[cazidin]

Also. The Arctic Cheetah and Timber Wolf aren't nearly as powerful as they once were due to a combination of hit box corrections, quirks and changes to Clan DHS.

[RestosIII]

cazidin, on 13 October 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Also. The Arctic Cheetah and Timber Wolf aren't nearly as powerful as they once were due to a combination of hit box corrections, quirks and changes to Clan DHS.

Let it die.