97 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Ultimatum X, on 07 September 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

If he ends up loving medium mechs and wants to try some others that's his choice, but for outright usability and overall "betterness" he's better off with Shadowhawks.

Well, i posted as to the 'WHY' o starting with a disadvantaged mech:


http://mwomercs.com/...29#entry3686429



I think the Hunchback teaches the basic skills needed for basic competency or decent-average play.

Shads add an additional vector of movement (jumping) which is a whole other skill to learn. Jumping and shooting is another.

HBK is an asymmetric build which will teach torso twist/corner peak/ridgehumping, zombying, deadsiding(you only lose 1 laser in the process), you are slower paced so you will naturally hang with the heavies until one learns when to/not to do this.

A STD 260-275 is fairly cheap compared to XL. Likely seen as an easier goal to a new pilot, after they get DHS/endo.

I view the HBK as training wheels to the Shad. Once competency is build in a non-jump mech, add the jets.
Why start with more complexity?

Also, if they get good with HBK, how much better will they be with the Shad?

I coach people or a living, trust me, its usually better to start beginners off with simpler to learn aspects. It may seem a disadvantage, but this disadvantage, i feel in this case is worth it. It is instructive.

Edited by InspectorG, 07 September 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[Budor]

Go with a Shadowhawk or a Cataphract. If you want to spend money because you realised this is the best game ever buy a Timberwolf.

[IraqiWalker]

The simplest and main reason to get the HBK (Hunchback) over the SHD (Shadowhawk) (I recommend the HBK 4SP first, since torso twisting is better learned AFTER you can pilot decently) is that the HBK does NOT have JJs.

Transitioning from a JJ mech to a non-JJ mech can be very hard, and using JJ mechs doesn't teach you to navigate terrain that well. Starting with a mech that has no JJs, allows you to work on basic movement, and piloting, learning how to move arounda map, and which ledges you can and can't climb. Whereas with a JJ mech, you hit an obstacle, you jump, and 80% of the time, you will forget about those obstacles.

Once you're done with the HBK-4SP, you can move on to the other HBKs, to learn how to torso twist, and protect a specific side, properly. It's better to not overwhelm new players with multiple things to learn. So that's why the 4SP is the best starter mech. You can learn most things about the game, and play most roles with one mech, that you can build cheaply, and is possibly the most nimble non-light in the game, with one of the best torso twist ranges in MW:O.

Once you're done with the 4SP, the 4G is a great escort mech since it allows you to focus more on being a second line mech with that big honkin' AC20. After that, you can either use the 4SP as your LRM mech, or the 4J to get through LRM training, and finish eliting them.


After that, transitioning into the Shadowhawk would be preferred, and enjoyable, as you will get 3-4 tons more to use (1 or 2 should go to JJs), and a slimmer, yet taller body to go with it.

The only way the HBK-4SP could be a better starter mech, is if it had 1 ballistic hardpoint in each arm. Allowing a player to learn all three weapon systems on one mech.

[Budor]

Even when not using jumpjets (which isnt rocket science at all) the Shadowhawk is the better mech. Do not gimp yourself, this game is not much more complicated than a generic scifi fps movement wise.

The things that make it inaccessible are stuff like ECM mechanics and the obscure mechlab ui.

Now with the clans on the field you want the best IS mechs you can get. Go Shadowhawk, Cataphract or Jagermech.


Edit: There is one important detail i forgot, the Shawks cockpit. If you, like me, are afraid of being trapped inside a refrigerator the Shawks cockpit might be disturbing.

This is how it looks for a average pilot:

Spoiler

This is how it looks if you are fat:

Spoiler

TLDR: Shadowhawk is good robot. Hunchback is poor robot.

Edited by Budor, 07 September 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Budor, on 07 September 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Even when not using jumpjets (which isnt rocket science at all) the Shadowhawk is the better mech. Do not gimp yourself, this game is not much more complicated than a generic scifi fps movement wise.

The things that make it inaccessible are stuff like ECM mechanics and the obscure mechlab ui.

Now with the clans on the field you want the best IS mechs you can get. Go Shadowhawk, Cataphract or Jagermech.

TLDR: Shadowhawk is good robot. Hunchback is poor robot.

You know, I don't want to get too much into this, because you're not exactly 100% wrong here, but you're somewhat wrong.
Here's why:

1- The HBK has better torso twist, not just in range, but also in speed, with relatively smaller, and cheaper engines.

2- The HBK has tighter turning, while the SHD moves like an 18 wheeler on 7 wheels.

3- You're not taller than some heavies when piloting a HBK, and can use cover better.

4- Your high mounted ballistics, don't make you go blind when you start firing them, when in a Hunchie.

5- The cockpit for HBK does not trigger claustrophobia, unlike the tiny, receded SHD cockpit.



Those are some of the reasons why the hunchie can be better for a lot of pilots. The biggest reason is that the hunchie is better for NEW players. Which is what we have here. I personally will recommend the SHD over the Hunchie to any player that isn't brand new, and needs a good starter mech. (not to mention that any three HBK variants, are cheaper to own and upgrade, than the SHD variants. The most expensive Hunchie is about 3.7 Mil to purchase, while the cheapest SHD is still over 4.3 Mil to purchase)


Competitively speaking, the SHD is the more used in the competitive scene, because it can poptart, has more tonnage to spare, and a bit more armor, with a harder to hit hunch. However, no new player should be getting competitive before finishing their second month of play at least. So this advice is focused more on getting a new player to best learn the game, and it's mechanics, to get them into a place where they can be comfortable whether they go into competitive play or not.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 September 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Budor]

New players need good mechs from the start to not get frustrated. To do well in a hunchback you need to be a more than average player already.

I would recommend a Timberwolf if they were available for cbills, but the Shawk is good too. The Hunchback is not, i love my YLW but recommending that to a new player is not doing him a favor.

Shawk, Cataphract or Jagermech.

Edit: I am not talking from a competitive players perspective. When you want to prevail in the ghetto you need the best cbills can get because you are alone every single match

Edited by Budor, 07 September 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[Mawai]

InspectorG, on 07 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Well, i posted as to the 'WHY' o starting with a disadvantaged mech:


http://mwomercs.com/...29#entry3686429



I think the Hunchback teaches the basic skills needed for basic competency or decent-average play.

Shads add an additional vector of movement (jumping) which is a whole other skill to learn. Jumping and shooting is another.

HBK is an asymmetric build which will teach torso twist/corner peak/ridgehumping, zombying, deadsiding(you only lose 1 laser in the process), you are slower paced so you will naturally hang with the heavies until one learns when to/not to do this.

A STD 260-275 is fairly cheap compared to XL. Likely seen as an easier goal to a new pilot, after they get DHS/endo.

I view the HBK as training wheels to the Shad. Once competency is build in a non-jump mech, add the jets.
Why start with more complexity?

Also, if they get good with HBK, how much better will they be with the Shad?

I coach people or a living, trust me, its usually better to start beginners off with simpler to learn aspects. It may seem a disadvantage, but this disadvantage, i feel in this case is worth it. It is instructive.

You make good points and I might agree except ...

... Cbills are not that easy to get in this game. There is a substantial grind unless folks spend real money to purchase the mechs or cbills. I have been playing since closed beta (open for getiing cbills) and I still only have about 18 mill in my bank. I buy occasional new mechs, engines, and modules (I only own one of any module I have ever bought and swap them around).
I have something like 50 mechs ... founders+phoenix+clan+ several more ... and I still don't have many cbills.

I realize that some players have much more time to play and as such can amass far more cbills but not everyone.

As a result, I find that I can only recommend the best choice of a mech in a class ... it may be a bit harder to learn but it is not worth having a new player waste cbills on anything but their best choice even if another option might be a better learning platform since it has fewer options (also the jump jets can easily be stripped from a Shadowhawk if someone wants to learn piloting without them to start with).

[Deathlike]

Shadowhawk-5M is the best first mech.

1) 275XL engine - highly reusable (cost is worth it for the next Shadowhawk)
2) DHS - you'll find out quickly how bad SHS is once you get your second mech
3) Endo Steel - you'll learn through mech building that this is the goto second upgrade (after DHS) to make things better

The Alternative is the Griffin-3M (you eliminate ballistics as an option altogether though).

It has most of the same benefits as the 5M (minus ballistics, and no built in endo upgrade), and you'd focus on mastering everything that you'd need to know about missiles and torso twisting (hopefully, because it's extremely agile). Unfortunately, you have more options for Shadowhawks than Griffins in terms of progression...

There are no real wrong answers... there are simply other better answers.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 September 2014 - 06:40 PM.

[Ultimax]

InspectorG, on 07 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Shads add an additional vector of movement (jumping) which is a whole other skill to learn. Jumping and shooting is another.

JJs add ease of use.

If he wants to learn without JJs, he can just not equip them.

No need to invest 10+ million into Hunchbacks to learn that.

InspectorG, on 07 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

HBK is an asymmetric build which will teach torso twist/corner peak/ridgehumping, zombying, deadsiding(you only lose 1 laser in the process), you are slower paced so you will naturally hang with the heavies until one learns when to/not to do this.

Nearly every shadowhawk can be played assymetrically, or with one shield arm.

InspectorG, on 07 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

A STD 260-275 is fairly cheap compared to XL. Likely seen as an easier goal to a new pilot, after they get DHS/endo.

Why invest all that into ENDO/DHS on Hunchbacks when Shadowhawks are clearly the superior option?

The few extra million he invests in a 300xl will be usable on half a dozen mechs.

How many other mechs is he realistically going to use a 275 STD on?


Think long term, and not short term.

InspectorG, on 07 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

I view the HBK as training wheels to the Shad. Once competency is build in a non-jump mech, add the jets.
Why start with more complexity?

Because he can add as much or as little "complexity" to the Shadowhawk as he likes.


Investing into 3 mechs for skills is a lot, better to start with something pretty much unanimously accepted as better.

InspectorG, on 07 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

I coach people or a living, trust me, its usually better to start beginners off with simpler to learn aspects. It may seem a disadvantage, but this disadvantage, i feel in this case is worth it. It is instructive.

You want him to learn simpler aspects, and yet you want to throw him into a land-locked mech that has to torso twist to protect his hunch or lose all of his weapons?

Sorry those aren't the "simpler" things to learn, you're contradicting yourself.

IraqiWalker, on 07 September 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

The simplest and main reason to get the HBK (Hunchback) over the SHD (Shadowhawk) (I recommend the HBK 4SP first, since torso twisting is better learned AFTER you can pilot decently) is that the HBK does NOT have JJs.

He can just not equip them, although I see no reason why.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 September 2014 - 06:49 PM.

[Deathlike]

Just so you know... while prior to the Shadowhawks, I would have recommended between the Hunchback and the Centurion... the reality is that I'm not surprised when I've read the forums is that some people have actually hated Hunchbacks, or at least would have not preferred that mech suggested to them.

It is not natural for someone who has NEVER played a MW based game before to "get" torso twisting. They understand driving, and shooting... but torso twisting on a mech with a notable target point of emphasis (despite the current buff) is not always obvious to the uninitiated.

The thing about the Shadowhawk is that although its cockpit is somewhat "constricting", for the average pilot, they need to see what they plan to see (aka, tunnel vision), so it's not a real negative until you actually notice this.

[ShinobiHunter]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

If the game is as LRM heavy as all the whiners here say, ECM is the only way to go for new players.

Trust me, ECM and AMS kid, this game is all LRMs now.

You don't really learn much that way though, so when he gets into non ECM mechs he will have to learn all over again. That plus Atlas' are super expensive.

Shadowhawk is probably the most user friendly mech I have played.

[Ultimax]

ShinobiHunter, on 07 September 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Shadowhawk is probably the most user friendly mech I have played.

And it's viable long after you are no longer a newb.

My current rotation sees me hopping into my 2D2 and 2K more than I even play my Cataphracts and Jagers at this point.

[Carrie Harder]

Ultimatum X, on 07 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

And it's viable long after you are no longer a newb.

My current rotation sees me hopping into my 2D2 and 2K more than I even play my Cataphracts and Jagers at this point.

#Shad 2K 4 lyfe.


Seriously though. It's almost like the divine powers that be created a mech that almost flawlessly fitted my piloting preferences...the only real issue I get is sometimes tracking people with torso lasers (arm mounts are easier), but other than that it's basically muh precious.

[Ultimax]

Carrie Harder, on 07 September 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

#Shad 2K 4 lyfe.


Seriously though. It's almost like the divine powers that be created a mech that almost flawlessly fitted my piloting preferences...the only real issue I get is sometimes tracking people with torso lasers (arm mounts are easier), but other than that it's basically muh precious.

I have a few DPI settings that I flip around to do that.

And I'm used to trying to line up those shots using a DS or the ballistics on an Atlas, so doing it in a Shadowhawk with 300xl makes me feel like I'm an Olympic acrobat.

This is a huge advantage that I think a lot of players overlook or take for granted, being able to line up shots on all manner of targets, including lights, I find is much easier in a fast Medium.


Anyone who ever said the VTR "moves like a medium" must have been snorting dish detergent, or slotting engines so small in their Mediums that they needed extra heatsinks to reach 10.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 September 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 07 September 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

He can just not equip them, although I see no reason why.

IraqiWalker, on 07 September 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Transitioning from a JJ mech to a non-JJ mech can be very hard, and using JJ mechs doesn't teach you to navigate terrain that well. Starting with a mech that has no JJs, allows you to work on basic movement, and piloting, learning how to move arounda map, and which ledges you can and can't climb. Whereas with a JJ mech, you hit an obstacle, you jump, and 80% of the time, you will forget about those obstacles.

That right there, is one of the biggest reasons for not using JJs as a starter pilot. Pilots that have used only JJ mechs don't navigate terrain as well as those who use non-JJ mechs and builds. Allowing them to function just as well, if not better with JJ mechs. Simply because they know the terrain better.

EDIT: also, the most important skill in MW:O is learning to torso twist, which you don't learn on a shadowhawk, as well as you do on a hunchie.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 September 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 07 September 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

That right there, is one of the biggest reasons for not using JJs as a starter pilot.

He can just not equip them - but doing so would be silly.

Having JJs at the start will make his gameplay easier, not harder.

When he goes to something land locked he'll at least already know most basic piloting skills, this stuff isn't rocket science man.

Yeah, after that he'll have to learn where the ramps on Canyon network are. This isn't a big deal, he can just follow the fatties.

IraqiWalker, on 07 September 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

EDIT: also, the most important skill in MW:O is learning to torso twist, which you don't learn on a shadowhawk, as well as you do on a hunchie.

Why wouldn't you learn how to torso twist on a Shadowhawk?D

Do you know what happens when you don't torso twist in a Shadowhawk?

Some Banshee, or Dire Wolf, or Warhawk, or Misery shows up and removes you from the field in 1 to 3 volleys.

This poor guy is going to hop into a hunchback and have his hunch blown off left right and center through his first 20 to 40 matches.


The last thing you need as a new player is a giant "shoot me" sign on a relatively wide body.


Playing mechs that have challenging design issues is great once you are good at the game, and are bored or you are a mech collector or nostalgic.

New players should be steered towards mechs that are clearly designed well, unanimously well liked and can perform well at the basic, moderate and advanced levels of play.

The Shadowhawk fits that definition.

[Y E O N N E]

I say pick a 'Mech in the class you want to play that you think looks cool or has features desirable to you. Once you pick it, stick with it,

This game is not the easiest to pick up. If what you picked happens to be a "sub-optimal chassis," don't get frustrated if you don't do well sooner rather than later. Stick with it. Why? Equipment will only carry you so far, and if you want to be on the fast-track to "getting good," playing a sub-optimal machine to the point where you can consistently score high with it is the way to go. Master it, then jump into an optimal 'Mech, and after a few matches you'll be wrecking face.

[Sorbic]

Hunchbacks are still a lot of fun (wish a variant had JJ's) and can do well. However the Shadowhawk, Blackjack and Kintaro are my favorite mediums. Everyones written about the Hawk so, the Blackjack can be great fun. With JJets and it's mobility you can get in and out quickly. One of my favorite things is it's one of those mechs that people seem to rank as a low threat so they will prob target the SH instead.

The Kintaro can be ran as a good mobile LRM boat or, my fav, a up close SRM brawler. It's hit boxes are also favorable.

[RobinSage]

I'm still of the opinion that if you're choosing an Inner Sphere mech, the Jagermechs are very versatile and can compete with much of the clan mechs in speed and damage output.

Try a Jagermech....I think the best bang for your buck when it comes to heavies.

GL.

[Ultimax]

RobinSage, on 07 September 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

I'm still of the opinion that if you're choosing an Inner Sphere mech, the Jagermechs are very versatile and can compete with much of the clan mechs in speed and damage output.

Try a Jagermech....I think the best bang for your buck when it comes to heavies.

GL.

Agreed.

Jagermechs are still solid performers, if he wanted to lean toward slower but heavier firepower - it's pretty hard to go wrong with Jagers.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 September 2014 - 09:02 PM.