271 replies to this topic

[fil5000]

Here's some suggestions for this place based on stuff I've seen on other forums:

1. Don't disappear posts. Deleting them makes it easier for people to claim that you're not following your own policies and fans the flames of any argument that's ongoing. People will take the comments offsite anyway, so it's pointless. Edit the post to remove the rule breaking content, note in the post why you've made the edit, and leave it standing. Yes, this takes longer than just blanket delete/unapproving things with no explanation, but it means the person getting moderated a) knows why and can't pretend it was for some other reason.

2. If you ban someone, say so publicly and say why. If they broke the rules, you're not "naming and shaming", you're just stating facts - "this person told that one to go <complicated anatomical description involving zoo animals> and this is their third offence, so ban". The only reason not to do this is that you are concerned that your moderators might be making bad calls.

3. Publish the guidelines your moderators are expected to adhere to. This should probably include handing over moderation of threads that they've been actively posting in to other people (to prevent moderators from trolling threads until they have an excuse to close it, or accusations of the same). We have posted rules for how players should and shouldn't post, we should have the same for those who are enforcing those rules.

4. Here's probably the best rule that the SomethingAwful forums has:

Quote

Before you post: Before posting, please ask yourself the following question: "Am I making a post which is either funny, informative, or interesting on any level?"
If you can answer "yes" to this, then please post. If you cannot, then refrain from posting. If you post anyway, the mods will probably gas your thread, automatically awarding you a 15-minute probation.
Before you reply: Before replying, please ask yourself the following question: "Does my reply offer any significant advice or help contribute to the conversation in any fashion?"
If you can answer "yes" to this, then please reply. If you cannot, then refrain from replying.

I'd steal that if I were you.

Edited by fil5000, 07 September 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[wanderer]

You will only have a civil discussion when you treat the game in a civil manner.

Forums become acidic, toxic messes because a game is failing to deliver. Period. Dropping bans based on third-party forums is useless- eventually, they'll simply just all end up with other names or anonymous.

And I would simply laugh and laugh and laugh some more when a F2P game is charging :tenbux: for posting privs. You're saying that the reaction to the game is so negative, and that the reaction is so legitimately effective, that you're putting up pay barriers to prevent it. That's just more ammo for the trolls, and it'll be super-effective damage.

Do what you say, say what you do, and just plain stop with the third-party content dance on Reddit. Places like that exist only when a game consistently torques enough of it's users off to make trolling it a "constructive" activity.

[Mcgral18]

I've heard of people getting banned after making fairly innocent posts, not going against the CoC, just criticizing the currently unfolding events...

Has there been over-moderation, Niko?

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 September 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[nonnex]

I must agree to FilFivethousand,

this behavior is common nowdays and is prooven that the ppl. like transparency and will respect such a movement. The people want to know whats going on and to know why this or that was handled in this or other way. They don't want to be blind in a bright internetworld.

Well, everybody is making some poopoo here and then. Thats normal. Saying that, it is not neccessary to delete and ban ppl. without leaving comments to the Rest of the community, why someone was banned or punished. Some ppl can learn from that or hav a chance to remember their good education for they own further postings.

- Deleting without comments will only result in accusation of censorship.
- Banning without comments will result in the accusation of missusing Modrights.
- Noone will criticise punishments from ppl who has more rights when its clear, open and comprehensible.

and so on

Edited by nonnex, 07 September 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[RustyBolts]

I have one more thing about this. POST HERE PGI or close this forum. Dont post stuff on another site first, then expect us to go looking for it.

[Kilo 40]

Mack1, on 07 September 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

I do not censor opinions, only abuse.

Which is precisely what is going on here

[stjobe]

Mcgral18, on 07 September 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Has there been over-moderation, Niko?

I think that's a given from just reading the OP:

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

The players who had been removed were all with prolific long histories of being moderated by various members of the team. This would all be well and good were it not for the fact that we have observed these same individuals openly mocking us and our players in third-party channels.

People were banned not for what they said on this site, but for what they said on third-party sites.

That's... well, I don't want to get banned so I'll just stop there.

Edited by stjobe, 07 September 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Creovex]

Great post Niko!!

The one and only suggestion I think might help, and not naming names, is to force "legendary moderators" to use alts when posting anything that includes an opinion. I have seen countless already hot threads blow up (and have blown up myself) when I have seen the mod come in and voice a position while moderating...

Moderate or participate, you do everyone a disservice trying to do both.

[nonnex]

Quote

ont post stuff on another site first, then expect us to go looking for it.

I like the search on 3rd parity platforms for PGI statements. It gives me a feeling of investigation. Doing some little work to get information will suggest it is worthful.

The banning Part of the Mod Statement:
Try to calm situations or switch to a positive future by banning People because some of their comments on 3rd party platforms, outside statements, or for what ever reasons outside of the circle of influence would maybe bring a bad and unpleasant light on a company or project.

It's a very dangerous strategy, because it would just do the opposite and stoke up and I don't want to imagine if such a behavior would reach serious, independent and sensitive Gaming-Jornalists ears (yes there are some of them left).
Again, this could be very dangerous in my opinion and can result in more harm then some unqualified statements of some unknown individuals can inflict. But maybe I'm wrong.

As I think about, try to stop negative opinions by this way has never worked in the past, it does not work nowdays and would not even work in the future, really. That's so oldfashioned and futile that I am surprised that someone is seriously consider it.

PS: I'm not native english speaker so the possibility exists that the one or other thing could be misinterpreted.

Edited by nonnex, 07 September 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[kuangmk11]

Make ignoring people easier, its 8 clicks and a copy/paste to ignore someone if you know what you are doing since its buried in the forum profile settings. Make it one button next to the report button.

[Jman5]

Quote

• It is often said to ignore those who actively ignore what you say or twist it towards their own ends. Given the prolific nature of some of these individuals, many of whom seem to spend whole work-weeks on the attack, should we make stronger efforts to remove those players who actively and repeatedly refute, deny, or ignore staff statements and announcements?

If they are not being overly insulting, I think educating the player by responding would be better. Often times when you get into an argument with someone on the internet, you will never convince him to change his mind. However, for every 1 arguer, there are 10 readers. You're targeting them with your response.

Quote

• Do you feel it's more important for moderation to be fair and consistent (at the risk of seeming cold or authoritarian); or to handle matters on a case-by-case basis to offer individuals the benefit of the doubt (at the risk of seeming to offer favouritism or being manipulated)?

Case by case. Otherwise you will wind end up sweeping through innocent or "valued" members of the community which will be negatively received by the community as a whole.

Quote

• Is our Name & Shame policy fair to the privacy of players, or should we be publicly flagging banned/restricted players who have been repeatedly abusive in the spirit of being more open? What about the potential risk of "bullying the bullies"?

Hard to say. Perhaps if you could create a log in the player's profile of all the reasons he's been moderated. I'm not sure if you should publicly post the comment/thread that caused the moderation.

Quote

• What kind of "positive" moderation systems (e.g. Likes. Rewards) would you be interested in us investigating or improving?

I'm not sure if this is something you should be pursuing. Anyone with the reward would be seen as a "white knight" or "teacher's pet". It will likely create animosity between fellow users.

Quote

• What kind of "negative" moderation systems (e.g. Restrictions, Penalties) would you be interested in us investigating or improving?

Hard to say. If you make the restrictions too harsh people will just create Alt accounts. We've had this issue on reddit which limits post/hour on trolls. They just make a bunch of alts to get around it.

Quote

• Given the increased use of alternate accounts at any time a player is suspended or banned, would you rather see the following: A) Increased thresholds on the Recruit restrictions. B ) Pay barriers placed on the forums for new accounts. C) [Your own recommendation].

Perhaps restrict commenting until a player has completed their 25 cadet bonus games. This would slow down alt accounts.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

stjobe, on 07 September 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

I think that's a given from just reading the OP:


People were banned not for what they said on this site, but for what they said on third-party sites.

That's... well, I don't want to get banned so I'll just stop there.

That's Overreacting? Going to far? Silencing freedom of speech?

I mean let's all be honest here; if PGI actually delivered on their promises and goals; with the exception of perfect balance would this thread even exist to talk about.

The answer is no.

Edited by DV McKenna, 07 September 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Vhetra]

Homeless Bill, on 07 September 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

Alternatively, /r/OutreachHPG for all the up-to-date news and moderation only against personal attacks and troll-grade baiting or /r/mwo for zero moderation and a burning hatred of PGI.

"Only against personal attacks and troll-grade baiting"

I'm sorry but that's just not true.

And for the record I don't come to the forums because there's nothing for me here. Not because of the fabled 'trolls'. There's simply no reason to when I can go to /r/mwo /r/outreachhpg. I don't do Twitter, but I've seen a lot of the actual news posts come from that, rather than here.

Also I'm afraid of Niko Snow Black Baggings.

Edited by Vhetra, 07 September 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[PanzerFurrry]

At this point in time I'm quite indifferent to their change of moderation of official forums.
After the PGI/IGP's decision to change the structure of forum, removal of General subforum (amongst the popular) and their policy back in 2013, the reason to read and participate in forum discussion really plummeted. Maybe this was their intention after all, who knows.

My point is, official forums are such an inferior way of communication for MWO, no real announcement are being posted here, all the relevant information is being posted on reddit, twitter, g+, etc. search is awful and forum's colour scheme is hard to read.

No matter what you do with your moderation policy, this forum will never get the amount of participants and visitors as it did before the cleansing in 2013 and even now. And you will get your share of criticism, no matter how many people you ban from forums.

Over&out.

[Fuligin]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,

"I don't come onto the forums, it's full of trolls."

So as a result we banned some people, including some for posts ON OTHER FORUMS, and then announced an ex post facto change of our moderation system, which we now ask you to approve.

These incidents revolve around quite legitimate community concern over the development of this game now that the developer is taking on other projects. Now all that is left of that discussion has spilled onto other forums. Will you be tracking those discussions for moderation action on THIS forum as well?

Frankly, I lost a lot more faith in PGI over the knee jerk bans, constant thread deletion, and general bunker mentality that has set in after the announcement of AUTE than I did over that announcement itself. If your flagship games most heavily invested, ardent fans get treated that way, what are we to believe about the company's attitude towards the game itself?

Announcing a change in direction in forum policy is just window dressing on bad decisions.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

PanzerFurrry, on 07 September 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

At this point in time I'm quite indifferent to their change of moderation of official forums.
After the PGI/IGP's decision to change the structure of forum, removal of General subforum (amongst the popular) and their policy back in 2013, the reason to read and participate in forum discussion really plummeted. Maybe this was their intention after all, who knows.

My point is, official forums are such an inferior way of communication for MWO, no real announcement are being posted here, all the relevant information is being posted on reddit, twitter, g+, etc. search is awful and forum's colour scheme is hard to read.

No matter what you do with your moderation policy, this forum will never get the amount of participants and visitors as it did before the cleansing in 2013 and even now. And you will get your share of criticism, no matter how many people you ban from forums.

Over&out.

I think that's the point, i think Niko's idea is to withdraw from other sites like reddit and twitter like they have been relying on and getting everything put down here, in their domain, the place that they control.

Negative criticism won't be accepted.

[Sky Hawk]

I. First the question of "Why..."

(I have not enough word power, pop-cultur and BT-lore knowledge, that I can always decide trully, that a poster makes a joke, trolling or attacks hard someone... I never read such posts, or least I don't recognised them as it... so..)

I think that the a firm itself should decide, what is a bad behavior or what is not.. It should creat a clear rule-system for EVERY possible situation, and then hold to it. (If you don't like week-long verbal attacks, make a rule agains it... write down in the Official Rule Side, and done!) And if someone broke a rule, should be punished always, nor just optional...

So make crystal-clear rules, and observe it hard. (If players dont like it... it exist one or two other game in the world.)


II. Bans

1. If someone broke a rule, which punishment is a ban. Only one person should make this ban. You or (if you want more work in the PR-live,) someone else, no matter. But only one person. Ban should be spoken out, just after the know ALL facts.. If it is two or more person, it is possible that one decide one way and the other decide the other way... in that case the whole rules are for the trash..

If you want some sleep or holidays.. in that case should be creat a "temporal ban" for other Mods, that freez everything till you come to work.. If a Mods made a mistake with it, he/she should make an official apologies.. But the last word/decision should be always in one hand.


2. You should end with the "joke ban"-system. (24-72 hours? Time to a little sleep, before someone come out, from under the bridge... No post rights?... You are just joking!) Hard punishment-system!

- 1. little or medium rules broke: Verbal Warning + post the full rule sytem

- 2. little or medium rules broke or 1. hard rules broke: 1 weeks ban

- 3. little or medium rules broke: 4 weeks ban

- 4. little or medium rules broke or 2. hard rules broke: 3 month ban

- 5. little or medium rules broke or 3. hard rules broke: permanent ban, game account deletion..

And what very important is: No prescription.. The number of rules brokes should be additive*!

(*Exeption: There are sure some players, who learn from the punishmen, and become a honoured longterm member ot the community.. THEY should be rewarded.. Something like, after every 10.000 Forum-Likes an official erase of 1 brokes point...)



III. Warning system for Mods? NO!

If someone becomes a ban, it should be appear in his/her post-tag, EVERY of them, any time for ALL reader. Something like this: , just in red and perhaps flickering.. The other forumers must know, if the poster is harmless or he/she is a notorious rule-broker!



IV. New players..

1. Yes, new player should have a limitation of post number, AND a limitation of text size too.. Some hundred character is far enough for: "I need help with my Stalker!" or "Why my Nova always explode after the first shoot?"... (I think 200-300 charecter is enough.. they don't need place for "War and Peace"!)

2. OF COURSE, new players should be inform always from all this.. So, after the registration e-mail they should become actual infos automatically from: forum, rules, kadett-system, their forum limitations, support and new player help-sides, etc.! (After a longterm pause, like about 3 month, players should be became the same e-mail, after reactivation of their accounts too.)

3. Kadett-level posts should be automatically comes before a Mods eyes ... Always!.. If it looks "smelly", they inform you.. It is hard to belive, that you don't recognise an "attacker" after reading some sentence of the new post.. (Would be better, that about the first 20-30 post from all poster would come for the Mods, automatically... they are even mostly very short.. and mostly aks after some help... and Mods sure knows the best help-sides )

(4. I think, if a banned player comes back with a new account, and holds his/herself this time to the rules, Mods should him/her let in peace... if they want look after him/her, they should do, but just in hidden... new account, new life... new chance)

[A X E L]

AUSwarrior24, on 07 September 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

So here's hoping everyone can get over what has happened in the past, forgive, and work together to keep the game going- because it certainly deserves to.

People aren't upset by what happened in the past, they are upset by what hasn't happened yet. I believe the Clan Packs drove an irreconcilable wedge through the community, forcing most players to feel like they had to choose a side. Personally I believe that the best form of moderation is to let the community moderate itself. However, for that to happen you must have a unified community.

[Tabrias07]

I like that you're finally admitting that people can and will be banned for their actions outside the forums, it's good to be honest, even if the policy is ridiculous.

None of the proposed changes will make any difference though. People will still continue to ridicule you on facebook/twitter/reddit/4chan/every other public forum in existence.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Tabrias07, on 07 September 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I like that you're finally admitting that people can and will be banned for their actions outside the forums, it's good to be honest, even if the policy is ridiculous.

None of the proposed changes will make any difference though. People will still continue to ridicule you on facebook/twitter/reddit/4chan/every other public forum in existence.

I suppose we could even go Metacritic......again...and get public write-ups on high profile sites...again.

Edited by DV McKenna, 07 September 2014 - 10:22 AM.