543 replies to this topic

[anonymous161]

Wow they are actually gonna make another game so soon? They haven't gotten out of beta for this game!

If you actually spend money on their new game their kick starter or whatever you are an idiot and dont deserve the money in your pocket to begin with. I learned from my mistake of buying big package deals like the clans only for them to take the fun away from them, ever since they did that nerf I uninstalled and haven't touched since and by the sounds of it, no point in coming back if they are gonna tackle a new game when they complain about being too small for this one.

Pshhh what a joke.

[TKSax]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

And how much of the harm, was propagated by players, on the forum, stirring the pot to a boil? Did PGI mishandle it? Absolutely.

If PGI mishandled it how is it the players fault that they were upset? When it was released 90% of the people were most upset that there was not the separate que that was unequivocally promised by Bryan and several others.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

(I am curious how much truth there was to the rumors that PGI was being mandated to communicate less by IGP. Mind you, these rumours, are not proven, and greatly predate the announced split. I suppose the only way we will know is by how they act in the present and future, quiaff? But it is interesting that PGI became a Black Hole in 2013, but in 2014, they let Garth go, they started in secret a new venture with a new partner, and they hatched a plan specifically to free themselves of IGP. Coincidence? Possibly, but I am not a huge believer in it, but I do believe Occam's Razor)

There is something to that I belive I posted my thoughts on this in reddit http://www.reddit.co...ll_in_business/ , there is no "new" partner in their new venture they are using government funds. Russ also alluded that the process of divesting themselves from IGP Started in January of this year. Garth was let go at some point I am not sure any one knows the date, but Niko did not start here until the March April time frame and they were already communicating more then. I don't think there was any plan hatching as far as I believe that PGI and IGP Decided in January that it might be best to separate.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

I believe the point, more or less though, is: People still hold 3pV as "PGI doesn't Listen to us", whereas they refuse to acknowledge "PGI didn't listen to us, because in this instance, we were WRONG".

Are there other facets to that? yep. But this part of the conversation was largely based off a post from MischiefSC about opinions, validity thereof and how to express them if you want them listened to. And this is an example where the consensus (aka majority Forum Opinion, my own included) was wrong. Be we conveniently avoid admitting that, or try to obfuscate it with peripherals.

I believe that was more of a PGI does not communicate with us complaint, which in some ways is worse than they do not listen. Also I am not sure that saying that a feature that hardly nobody uses means the forums were "wrong", in fact it may lead to them being right that it was a waste of time. But your right it is a mulit-;ayer issue, but is a good example of how PGI failed its community in 2013 and has lead to a loss of trust in PGI for a lot of people.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Darth Bane001, on 10 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Wow they are actually gonna make another game so soon? They haven't gotten out of beta for this game!

If you actually spend money on their new game their kick starter or whatever you are an idiot and dont deserve the money in your pocket to begin with.

bro, you just insulted the players not the developers. when you make comments like that you are speaking to everyone who might think the game is a good idea and those who have already invested in it. choose your words carefully.

This game has longs since been out of beta, it is almost complete in the sense of CW and while carry on long after.

[Bishop Steiner]

TKSax, on 10 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

I believe that was more of a PGI does not communicate with us complaint, which in some ways is worse than they do not listen. Also I am not sure that saying that a feature that hardly nobody uses means the forums were "wrong", in fact it may lead to them being right that it was a waste of time. But your right it is a mulit-;ayer issue, but is a good example of how PGI failed its community in 2013 and has lead to a loss of trust in PGI for a lot of people.

If nobody is using it, that generally means it was not the game changing, balance breaking feature it was feared to be, now does it?

And you will see I admitted I was wrong about it, TOO. Yes, PGI in 2013 burned a lot of trust and goodwill. But it's interesting how much people seem to ignore the changes, and attempts and improvement of 2014, and cling to the failures of 2013.

If we all have our past failings as the only thing people see, and any changes and good things done since ignored, who here could stand at at all? Old religious text I like to read (cuz I'm weird like that) has a principle of "being cautious as serpents, yet innocent as doves".

I make no claim to applying it perfectly (i gots a temper), but it sure seems a lot preferable an outlook than most of the vitriol on these forums which is to tenaciously cling to, and only remember the bad (real or otherwise) while outright ignoring any positive, and openly attacking those who might dare to occasionally say something nice.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 September 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

This is what is cool about opinions, there are so many different ones out there.

When I dropped my Founders money, I EXPECTED decisions to be made I would not like, yes Expected. They are making the game for more people than just me! So I Expected them to listen to what I say, weigh and measure it, and treat it as an opinion. Much like when My kids tried to tell me how to raise them. I listened, thought about it and either dismissed it or discussed it further. In the end, the DEVs have to make the game THEY think is best. While they do that, I will poke them with a stick when I think it is stupid, I will laugh when I think its funny, and I will defend when I think they have it right.

BUT there are 500,000 ME's out there and each wants the game to be... a bit different than how I want it. Their voice is just as important as mine. And When I disagree, it isn't personal(I DON'T LIKE YOU!!!) it Personal (I'd like to see it my way instead of yours).

The DEVs have messed up quite a few times as far as I am concerned, but if I took things like that personally I'd have quit my job at Ford when they were a week late with my first check...21 years ago. So if the game isn't what you were hoping it would be, think about it, are you the only player? If you answer no then you know why it isn't exactly how you want it.

Flamers are a space filling fluff weapon, it is not meant to be worth taking, you take it when you got nothing else you WANT to take. I have played Giant Stompy Robots for 30 years without using a Flamer. The game would not die if they NEVER got fixed. Trust me on that.

Joe, big <3 over this post. Well said.

The only time I used a flamer in an official tournament it was pure trolling. We drew lots for pre selected mechs in a death match. I got short straw and a Firestarter, everyone else was in hunchbacks, warhammers, marauders and an atlas. So I set the whole map on fire. Kept out of Los and started fires every round.

Which made the match unplayable. Nobody could see anyone, everyone was too hot to shoot accurately and it stretched a 45 min match into a two hour time sink that everyone but the atlas just conceded because they wanted to see the rest of the con.

In hindsight that may have been my first experience with trolling in BT. Of from such humble beginnings.....

To each their own is unfortunately a bit too much to ask anymore. Props on the perspective check Joe. All well said.

[TKSax]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

If nobody is using it, that generally means it was not the game changing, balance breaking feature it was feared to be, now does it?

And you will see I admitted I was wrong about it, TOO. Yes, PGI in 2013 burned a lot of trust and goodwill. But it's interesting how much people seem to ignore the changes, and attempts and improvement of 2014, and cling to the failures of 2013.

If we all have our past failings as the only thing people see, and any changes and good things done since ignored, who here could stand at at all? Old religious text I like to read (cuz I'm weird like that) has a principle of "being cautious as serpents, yet innocent as doves".

I make no claim to applying it perfectly (i gots a temper), but it sure seems a lot preferable an outlook than most of the vitriol on these forums which is to tenaciously cling to, and only remember the bad (real or otherwise) while outright ignoring any positive, and openly attacking those who might dare to occasionally say something nice.

Its real simple, everyone has to decide when PGI's current actions are enough to for them to trust them now. They have your trust and others back and that's great, good for you. For others it and I it is not, and that is ok to they need to keep working hard to earn that trust back.

For me if they would answer this one question they would accelerate that pace to getting me to trust them.

All during 2013 and at the Launch Party you said Community warfare was on the way, when in fact you had not even started working on it. This has been one of the biggest causes of mis-trust with PGI, is there anything you can say to re-assure players that something like that will not happen agian, or what was going on during that time that made you continue to give release dates on something you had not even started working on.

Answer that question Honestly and I might be able to dig up some money for a clan pack.

Edited by TKSax, 10 September 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[MischiefSC]

While I'm a big fan of "move forward", this is an elephant in the room and a fair question. PGI doesn't owe me an explanation about anything - they are a business, I'm a consumer, if I showed up at PGI wanting $20 and a place to crash it would be pretty awkward. As a consumer though that whole situation really damaged my trust. I would like an explanation if they want to get moving toward that same level of trust again. Asking for that isn't unreasonable.

[AztecD]

HAHAHAHA

we are so screwed, im going to enjoy playing this half done mech game while it lasts

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 September 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

You'll concede easier than I will. I want video proof of a Naval broadside all hitting within a one yard target. Then I will concede.

Artilery can use GPS guided shells. http://en.wikipedia..../M982_Excalibur i Think at this time the g-forces present in the main guns of a US batttle shipshot will break any current microelectronics. limiting its use to smaller shells. even then the accuracy does approach what your looking for but has room to improve.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Of course, we can't do this, due to name and shame rules in the CoC, but just imagine for a minute, if we took certain Notable Forumites, and EVERYTIME they spoke, we had a nice text.file ready of their every Incorrect assumption, bad idea, Forum Misstep, and just plastered them and harangued them with it nonstop, and absolutely ignored or trivialized anything they did right. Pretty sure we would see most of them ragequit, pretty fast.

I'm not even sure if I'm the target of this, but over time, people do misspeak, and say stuff that is inaccurate... probably more angry over the issue or content and less so about justifying it. I've probably make such mistakes before, and apologize in advance if I made a grave mistake. However, I don't apologize for unpopular viewpoints, as they are my own.

Also, trolling other people is a waste of time. Better off giving them the rope to hang themselves with. They will accidentally do it on their own. Then again... they are our providers too...

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 10 September 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

I'm not even sure if I'm the target of this, but over time, people do misspeak, and say stuff that is inaccurate... probably more angry over the issue or content and less so about justifying it. I've probably make such mistakes before, and apologize in advance if I made a grave mistake. However, I don't apologize for unpopular viewpoints, as they are my own.

Also, trolling other people is a waste of time. Better off giving them the rope to hang themselves with. They will accidentally do it on their own. Then again... they are our providers too...

Nah, I wouldn't say it was pointed at you. We've got folks around though who pretty much troll nonstop. Having an unpopular opinion is one thing - posting nothing but personal attacks and baseless screeds about how increasing heat on cermls is just like stealing from people and should be reported to the police.

I don't think anyone is complaining about rational disagreement or criticism. Just pants on head crazy - which is more common.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 10 September 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is complaining about rational disagreement or criticism. Just pants on head crazy - which is more common.

At this point, pants on head is what I need to calm down the crazy+hilarity I've been reading...

[That Dawg]

I'm frankly a bit worried about the alleged banning of those forum members who, on OTHER websites were speaking poorly of this site, or the creators, or the game itself
The entirety, the whole importance of internet is freedom of speech.
The whole tone here from one year ago, to today is too damn telling of things to come. I'm very sad about it all.

[Theodore42]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Old religious text I like to read (cuz I'm weird like that) has a principle of "being cautious as serpents, yet innocent as doves".

Nice, Matthew 10:16. The full quote, as it is apt, is "See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."
You have to be as wise as the trolls but not use their gross fallacies. Instead say the truth, be it good or bad, and let MWO sink or swim on its own merits.

Logan Hawke, on 10 September 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Gotta be honest Bishop, while bringing down the forum rage and vitriol is a good thing, you're talking about stooping to their level and worse. Better to just ignore them and have a mod delete any problem posts of theirs from threads they are disrupting.

I don't think ignoring trolls is a good idea. If a troll lies, and you say nothing, then you are perpetuating that lie, no matter how obviously wrong (to you) they are.

The troll is communicating an idea, usually quite well, and while it may be obviously wrong to everyone with game experience, they aren't talking to you. They are talking to the potential new players that are checking out the game on the forums. People looking into mwo will know to look out for trolls, but it takes someone to rebutt the troll, tell the truth, and increase the newbie's understanding of the issues.

So their opinion can change from "this game is already dead" to "this game is not perfect but a lot of people seem to be having fun playing it."

ThatDawg, on 10 September 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

I'm frankly a bit worried about the alleged banning of those forum members who, on OTHER websites were speaking poorly of this site, or the creators, or the game itself
The entirety, the whole importance of internet is freedom of speech.
The whole tone here from one year ago, to today is too damn telling of things to come. I'm very sad about it all.

Freedom of speech is about freedom of ideas. If you agree with their ideas, then post them here yourself, in their name. What IDEA is in violation of the code of conduct?

Edited by Theodore42, 10 September 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I'm a huge proponent of free speech and the free exchange of ideas. The problem though is when a few people don't set out to share their ideas but to try and prevent other from sharing theirs. They create static and garbage to prevent others from actually doing anything useful. That needs moderated for free speech to work.

[bobF]

Is this everyone's first online game? Or the first time you've participated in a gaming forum? Look, the sentiment of the op is swell, but its still naively pie in the sky. Its like listening to the kid smoking for the first time and he says something like "maaaan, wouldn't it be cool if everyone was nice to each other?"

Some developers earnestly want to make good games. Other developers earnestly want to take your dollars. If you guys who have been here forever, waiting for Godot, haven't figured out that pgi is the latter kind, then I dunno what to tell you. Get gud IRL, perhaps.

No amount of forum activism will influence c-level decisions related to revenue. Ever. No amount of corporate marketing is going please every entitled man child who demands the perfect game. Ever. So, with the pattern of observed human behaviors remaining constant, the only option is to enjoy the game till it stops being fun. Mwo amused me for about 2 months, so gj pgi. I'm playing divinity, original sin (a kick starter funded RPG). Its only further illustrated pgis lack of competence and naked greed.

Cw will be an awesome feature, eventually, when you guys finally stop buying mechs. I may see you fine people again at that time. I'm thinking around q3 2015.

Edited by bobF, 10 September 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

TKSax, on 10 September 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Its real simple, everyone has to decide when PGI's current actions are enough to for them to trust them now. They have your trust and others back and that's great, good for you. For others it and I it is not, and that is ok to they need to keep working hard to earn that trust back.

For me if they would answer this one question they would accelerate that pace to getting me to trust them.

All during 2013 and at the Launch Party you said Community warfare was on the way, when in fact you had not even started working on it. This has been one of the biggest causes of mis-trust with PGI, is there anything you can say to re-assure players that something like that will not happen agian, or what was going on during that time that made you continue to give release dates on something you had not even started working on.

Answer that question Honestly and I might be able to dig up some money for a clan pack.

Fair enough. While I do not agree with you on it, I certainly can see your PoV. Which is entirely different an approach to the vitriolic spewing that has been the norm here, for far too long.

Cynical, critical, cautious, needing to be convinced. All fine. Simply not buying it anymore and done. Also fine.

Spewing venom on every thread you can, and belittling and attacking, usually with half truths, anyone who doesn't feel the same as you? Not fine. And those are the attitudes I am addressing in this Topic.

Joe Mallon, Deathlike, MischiefSC, and many others are all displaying varying degrees of cynicism, fatigue, PGI burnout, etc. Yet none make it a habit (well, OK, maybe Deathlike once in a while) of derailing everything because if they can't be happy with MWO, well, by golly, no one else can be, either. And even those I frequently disagree with all the above, i can respect their opinion. Heck, I respect your opinion, because even if you and I are approaching it with differing perspectives, and expectations, you are willing to express yourself in an adult and civilized manner, instead of a rant, or a constant reiteration of the same exact "point" over and over again, as some on here have tried.

Do I need to revisit the past to move forward with the future? No. The past informs me, but it's also hardly black and white. You want to see more. That's fine too.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

While I'm a big fan of "move forward", this is an elephant in the room and a fair question. PGI doesn't owe me an explanation about anything - they are a business, I'm a consumer, if I showed up at PGI wanting $20 and a place to crash it would be pretty awkward. As a consumer though that whole situation really damaged my trust. I would like an explanation if they want to get moving toward that same level of trust again. Asking for that isn't unreasonable.

Yup. But we also do not know, legally, contractually and such PGI is able to discuss. Using these situations are bound up real tight under NDAs. So short of a former employee in the know, spilling the beans, it could be a long wait.

Also, it's bad professionalism, and a red flag for potential future partners, investors and such, when you show a habit of showing of the dirty laundry. Had it ended with an acrimonious split, with lawsuits and such, we would probably have been more likely to see the ugly underbelly get exposed (even though those also are usually bound by NDAs).

So I gotta ask. If, for whatever reason, they don't address what happened. But Delivery CW. Keep communicating, putting out content, etc and such. Do you hold it against them forever?

I mean Motorola lied to me and 10,000s of customers. We bought the Photon a few years ago with Motorola publicly promising all units would be upgraded to Jellybean OS shortly. Almost a year later, it comes out they decided not to. Stuck with Gingerbread, and no Flash player. I had every right to be pissed, and was. Never going to buy a Motorola product again.

Then Google bought them. And they released the Moto-G, which was the perfect low cost, high feature phone for my needs here in Latin America. Was I going to let what happened 3 years before keep me from doing what would benefit me most, now?

Some people indeed would. Me? I ended up buying the bloody phone, and moving on with my life.

PGI is at a crossroads. What happened before cannot be undone, and likely cannot be discussed, legally. For me, the question is down to what has happened in the recent past, the present and the near future. And then go forward from there. If they deliver from this point on, they continue to get my patronage. If they fall into the old shenanigans, then they lose it...based off what they are doing now, not what we think we know about what might have happened.....2 years ago.

Tombstoner, on 10 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Artilery can use GPS guided shells. http://en.wikipedia..../M982_Excalibur i Think at this time the g-forces present in the main guns of a US batttle shipshot will break any current microelectronics. limiting its use to smaller shells. even then the accuracy does approach what your looking for but has room to improve.

dem some expensive shells. Of course....an expensive shell on target is worth hundreds of ones missed.

Deathlike, on 10 September 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

I'm not even sure if I'm the target of this, but over time, people do misspeak, and say stuff that is inaccurate... probably more angry over the issue or content and less so about justifying it. I've probably make such mistakes before, and apologize in advance if I made a grave mistake. However, I don't apologize for unpopular viewpoints, as they are my own.

Also, trolling other people is a waste of time. Better off giving them the rope to hang themselves with. They will accidentally do it on their own. Then again... they are our providers too...

why would you be the target. We disagree all the time, Whooptydoo. You have not devoted your life to trolling the forums, and spreading outright lies and attacks as some have. Disagreements, even with people I may think are jerks (again, not referring to you, lol) are fine and part of life. People who seem to exist only to watch the world burn around them? Different story.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I leave the house for a couple days and come home to this ****.
What happened?

Things were just starting to look up for MWO too

[Asmudius Heng]

TKSax, on 10 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

I believe that was more of a PGI does not communicate with us complaint, which in some ways is worse than they do not listen. Also I am not sure that saying that a feature that hardly nobody uses means the forums were "wrong", in fact it may lead to them being right that it was a waste of time. But your right it is a mulit-;ayer issue, but is a good example of how PGI failed its community in 2013 and has lead to a loss of trust in PGI for a lot of people.

To add to this complex issue. It is not so much they do not listen or communicate - it is HOW they do that.

In the forums we have a lot of opinions as people have said all extremely varied - some are ignorant or any decent ideas of game design, others are very well informed, many are just different approaches.

What do we do? We aregue with EACH OTHER and PGI might look in and see lots of different stuff and decide its too hard to cater to everyone so make decisions informed by themsleves and maybe a very small part of the community.

This is because they are not interacting with us and letting us know WHY they make decisions. Then the community can discuss things with real CONTEXT using PGIs current theorys for thier decisions as a basis to talk around rather than everyone making assumptions and creating arguments too wide and deep to have any realistic way of being noticed and actioned.

There is no gravity of reality to most discussions because PGI do not inform us of the WHY of upcoming decisions - or when they do they phrase it as "Here are two options we made" like the PPC issue which was better communication but effectivly meant that any out of the box thinking was not going to be looked at.

This can never be perfect but if PGI are genuine about having good community interactions and want to listen to us there need to be better explainations, follow up, and talk with the community and they need to learn to admit wrongs and be open to address long standing features that need reworking.

I am hopeful that they can do this and they are getting better recently.

However no matter how well they go from here the relationship will always be soured by past actions. There will always be a shadow of doubt. PGI can NEVER fully recover from what they have said and done in the past. Redemption is possible, but old wounds never truly go away for many companies until there is a huge culture and staff shift shown to the public.

So i am taking this is a fresh start but PGI are the ones who need to step up as well or they will simply be paying lip service to change for the better.