60 replies to this topic

[Nidalap Live]

One of the things that may be confusing you when you're trying to compare mediums to the other weight classes:

The best mediums are far, far more effective than the worst ones. I'd personally rank the 3 best to be Shadowhawk, Griffin, and the ECM version of the Cicada. Shawks have hunchback-like hill peeking without the hunch problem and far more tonnage available, Griffins are the best SRM boats and have incredible torso twist (so much so that you can run away while firing), the ECM cicada has the most payload of all the IS ECM mechs, letting you fight hard and protect at the same time.

And of course, logging into the mediums queue is a lot easier than the heavies and assaults. That changed for a while when the Nova was introduced and may change permanently once the stormcrow becomes available for cbill purchase.

So, if you were looking at other mediums and asking what they were good for... the answer might be different depending on WHICH medium you were comparing with.

** Note: Most of what I'm saying pertains to mechs available for Cbills now.

So, what roles?

* Medium LRM boats like the Kintaro, Trebuchet, Griffin have enough speed to flank the enemy and hit them from the sides, evade most retribution, and more easily keep the enemy out of the minimum LRM range.
* Medium Long-range builds have enough speed to maneuver to a rear sniping position, and unlike lights, have enough firepower to make that shot count. Example: Shawk 3ERLL build, Cicada 2PPC build.
* Mediums can make great use of cover, having enough firepower to peek one part of themselves out from cover, and having enough engine to get back under cover before return fire. Shawk/hunch for peeking over hills, nova or Yen-Lo-Wang for peeking one arm around a corner (do be careful not to get that arm shot off).
* Some mediums can carry enough engine to prosecute lights who venture into range. One example would be a shadowhawk 2d2 which can carry up to 4 SSRM, some arm-mounted pulses.

What they don't do well is tank. They are just slow enough that speed tanking isn't effective, and don't have the levels of armor found in heavy/assault. So you have to decide whether your cover is going to soak the damage, or the assault mech that you're following will.

Edited by Nidalap Live, 10 September 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[Appogee]

Nidalap Live, on 10 September 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

So, if you were looking at other mediums and asking what they were good for... the answer might be different depending on WHICH medium you were comparing with.

Excellent post.

[Rogue Jedi]

This is my experiance from the mediums I have played,

For a long time the Cicada was my favorate mech, depending on how you set it up it can fulfill almost any role except front line brawler (due to lack of armor)
the Blackjack is a mini Jagermech, the Centurian is a versitile and highly durable mech, the Hunchback mounts heavy weapons and is oftern ignored. the Shadow Hawk is one of the most versitile mechs in the game (but a bit lacking on torso twist range), the Griffin and Wolverine can both mount lots of missiles and be very effectivave brawlers or LRM skirmishers.

the upside to medium Mechs is they can carry more armor and firepower than a light but are usualy faster than a heavy or assualt, every mech (and indeed weight class) has its advantages and disadvantages.

Nidalap Live, on 10 September 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

the ECM cicada has the most payload of all the IS ECM mechs,

one minor error there, I think you are forgetting the AS7-D-DC Atlas with ECM

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 10 September 2014 - 05:34 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

Mediums are the most flexible class on the field. They've got good engine size to speed ratios, which makes them fast and manouverable and just the right tonnage to get a decent amount of weaponry in a mobile package.

Shadowhawks are popular due to their Jump Jets and high mounted shoulder hardpoints, but their cockpit view is a bit uncomfortable and restricts your field of view.

Centurions suffer from a somewhat inflexible hardpoint design, but are considerably more durable then a lot of people give them credit for.

Hunchbacks tend to lose their hunches early when they do mistakes, but the design otherwise provides very flexible hardpoint configurations.

Griffins have a strong energy/missile bias, can perform very well with mixed or more focused loadouts and have Jump Jets for added mobility.

I'm not too familar with the rest of the Mediums, but I hope this provides some insight in what you can do with them.

[Haji1096]

Mediums are the best at teaching a pilot how to use patience, intuition, and guile during an engagement. You have to be patient because you don't have the speed to disengage like a light. You use intuition to figure out where/when you can help outnumber the enemy. You use guile to attack from a strange, weird angle to put pressure on the enemy team.

[TripleEhBeef]

Mediums have the best blend of firepower and mobility of any mech class. Even a stock engine Hunchback can twist and turn much more quickly than any Assault. This might not sound like much, but anyone who's put their time in on mediums can tell you how incredibly survivable you can be by taking advantage of that trait.

I've taken down AC40 Boomjacks that had just gotten finished instagibbing another heavy mech by flipping his next shot into s shield arm before boring out his damaged XL torso.

[Draken X]

Not sure if anyone has an opinion about a jack-of-all-trades/general purpose medium mech, namely the new Vindicator.

I had experinces with both Hunchback and Centurion. They are both a modest tanker, although their armor tonnage aren't good enough to absorb heavy damage.

Medium mechs are good on its own class in terms of firepower, armor, mobility and tactical roles depend on what a mech was designed and created for. Not necessarily both heavy and assault mechs owns anything.

Edited by Draken X, 10 September 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[jper4]

mediums are the best vultures if you're patient. i tend to use short range builds so it's usually a few minutes before i can actually get into a fight most of the time so for the early parts of the match i tend to play a roving rear guard keeping an eye out for those pesky arty pack lights trying to get in behind us since mediums are fast enough to get from one end of the battlefield to another and small enough that the average pilot isn;t going to try and take a long range shot at it when there's a nice slow heavy/assault to shoot instead. then once mechs start getting beat up is when the medium can sneak in and start taking out components/mechs and still be able to disengage. most of my kills tend to come in the later part of the matches. in fact it's fairly common for a mechs or two on one or both sides of the fight have died before i have even gotten to fire a shot in the match.

while lights can do it too, everyone goes for the legs on a light, unless JJs are involved legs aren;t usually the first target in a medium and plus they have more armor to handle it so while the light trying it will probably lose a leg sooner than later a medium generally won't.

also mediums make the prefered assault escort as they are fast enough to discourage those lights trying to rip apart that direwhale next to you as it tries to trudge down to the fight, chase them off and have the speed to get back to the assault in a short peroid of time. a heavy could do this as far as packing a bt more armor/firepower for the job as a deterrant but they can;t chase or risk suddenly becoming the target instead of an escort and having an assault and a heavy so far back from the fight is going to show as a bigger loss on the front line more than an assault and a medium would.

[White Bear 84]

I find that hit and run tactics work great - keeping the enemy team on their toes at all time. That and great light hunters.

Best round I witnessed was a shadowhawk 2D that consecutively took out cataphract, Hunchback, Jenner then finished an Atlas. Working with another mech, the enemy team were so confused. It was a gold moment.

[n r g]

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[IraqiWalker]

E N E R G Y, on 11 September 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

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[Jon Gotham]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 September 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

OR and have more maneuverability than a heavy mechs.

When things go dirty or the heavier ones aim at me, I can fly away.

I hate to say it, but that isn't strictly true in the age of the imbawolf:(
I'd second what others have said flexibility, but you do field one you have to specialise to be effective. If you are a cqb role then boat as much close range as you can. Vice versa for long range.
But do not expect to be able to get away with trading fire vs competent heavier opponents-you won't, simply.
You don't have enough armour to tank too many hits nor the speed to get away swiftly enough....someone above coined it prefectly-force multiplier.

[xe N on]

It is correct that mediums are slighty faster and agile then heavies, however, their profile at 55 ton is next as bulky as a 70 - 75 ton.

[Shell Game]

pulupulu, on 08 September 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

medium is the best weight class for peek-a-boo.

they are the only one with enough speed and firepower to do it as their primary role. That's for long range weapons. Obvvously stormcrow is absolutely the best at this, currently in game.

Heavy can do it to a degree, but it is less safe than medium. Assault can't do it without prior knowledge of where opponent is looking at.

For short range, medium are the best to flank with srm. With alot of srm, medium can pack alot of punch for a surprise attack then get out without being dead. Srm are also excellent light killing weapon. Yes, stormcrow is also the best srm medium in the game currently.

All the other role such as fire support, finisher, harassment, front line combat, holding down defensive position, etc other class do it way better. If you want to play those role well, don't pick a medium.

Medium builds should not be jack of all trade. They need to dedicate all their tonnage for a single spear point attack that tip the war toward your team's direction. If someone has to die, it is better you die than your heavy, light, or assault. (unless they are clearly noob from solo queue, then u need to carry)

I've figured out the peek-a-boo role

[STEF_]

kamiko kross, on 11 September 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

I hate to say it, but that isn't strictly true in the age of the imbawolf:(
I'd second what others have said flexibility, but you do field one you have to specialise to be effective. If you are a cqb role then boat as much close range as you can. Vice versa for long range.
But do not expect to be able to get away with trading fire vs competent heavier opponents-you won't, simply.
You don't have enough armour to tank too many hits nor the speed to get away swiftly enough....someone above coined it prefectly-force multiplier.

I do specialize my medium mechs, of course.
The key word is really "maneuverability", and this: "never ever trading fire with heavies or assault".
So, in a close range loadout, they can flank better; or "clean up" better".
Also thay can chase annoying bugs better than heavies.
A medium lrm-boat can be very annoying, and, again, change position better than a heavy.
In short, they are great to chase the so called "target of opportunity".

And ... I just don't want to tank damage. I'm not an heavy or an assault.

edit: about Timbers, let them to heavies or assaults of your team. In any case, legged timber is a very yummy ToO.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 11 September 2014 - 10:02 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Stefka Kerensky, on 11 September 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

edit: about Timbers, let them to heavies or assaults of your team. In any case, legged timber is a very yummy ToO.

That's the problem right there. Imagine you are alone in your Hunchback and the last remaining enemy is a Timberwolf.

Are you faster than him? No.
Are you more maneuverable? No, in fact the jump jets give TW an advantage.
Better hit boxes? Nope.
Better at tanking damage? Don't Thinks so.
And you've got 25% less armor and 50% less firepower.

Your only chance is if that guy just paid $55 for it and plays in 3PV.

Timber Wolf invalidated most of the IS mediums. They would need a ton of positive quirks to become competitive again.

Edited by Kmieciu, 12 September 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[STEF_]

Kmieciu, on 12 September 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

That's the problem right there. Imagine you are alone in your Hunchback and the last remaining enemy is a Timberwolf.

Are you faster than him? No.
Are you more maneuverable? No, in fact the jump jets give TW an advantage.
Better hit boxes? Nope.
Better at tanking damage? Don't Thinks so.
And you've got 25% less armor and 50% less firepower.

Your only chance is if that guy just paid $55 for it and plays in 3PV.

Timber Wolf invalidated most of the IS mediums. They would need a ton of positive quirks to become competitive again.

Quite obvius in that situation, 1 medium vs 1 timber.
If that situation happens, red team deserve the win.

[Kmieciu]

Stefka Kerensky, on 12 September 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Quite obvius in that situation, 1 medium vs 1 timber.
If that situation happens, red team deserve the win.

No it does not deserve anything. A Hunchback has to have some angle, that could be use against the TW.

You might not remember the times, when the most feared build on the battlefield was the streakpult. A CPLT-A1with 6xSSRM2 that could win a duel with any mech inside 270 meters, because SSRM damage was bugged and the missiles targeted only the CT.
The game was seriously imbalanced, and 90% of the players demanded a change. But at least medium mechs back then had a chance: they could use weapons with longer range to leg the Streakpult, while maintaining range. I used my speed and torso twist to shoot while running away from it, and after few salvos I managed to leg it. I exploited it's only weakness and that win was a real challenge.

Against a Timber Wolf? There is no challenge. Because there is no angle. You either win because of luck, or because the other pilot is totally incompetent. Either way I don't find it challenging. It's like taking a Locust and hoping your team will win without your help.

[Training Instructor]

I don't think there's much question that the Stormcrow is the pinnacle of medium mech right now, except for the lack of jump jets.
Still have to respect Shawks as well as Griffin SRM boats. Cicadas with ECM make excellent support platforms for heavies and assaults, or to cover a pack of strikers flanking the enemy.

As others have said, a medium is a great force multiplier and excels at moving and reacting to the flow of battle. Don't try to make a balanced weapons loadout. If you want long-range weapons, fill it up with long range. If you want to brawl, fill it up with short range. Don't mix random assortments of lrms, srms, autocannons, and lasers, build something that has a dedicated purpose.

[STEF_]

Kmieciu, on 12 September 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Against a Timber Wolf? There is no challenge. Because there is no angle. You either win because of luck, or because the other pilot is totally incompetent. Either way I don't find it challenging. It's like taking a Locust and hoping your team will win without your help.

For this reason I said "red team deserve the win".
But what does inhibit your team to have a timber too?
Of course I don't like at all how Timber is right now, and of course I want pgi to fix its terrible hitboxes.
But meanwhile what are you suggesting? To stop playing with medium?
Anyhow, 1 medium vs 1 heavy, it should always be an heavy win (not only if the heavy is a timber), unless unskilled heavy pilot. For this reason I previously said, when I go medium, I never choose to brawl 1 on 1 against an heavy, unless flanking, unless to "vulture" it, etc.