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What Does Medium Do Better Than Others


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#41 Kmieciu

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 05:16 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 12 September 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

For this reason I said "red team deserve the win".
But what does inhibit your team to have a timber too?

Some people don't have $55 to spare at the moment?

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 12 September 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Anyhow, 1 medium vs 1 heavy, it should always be an heavy win


The game we are playing is 12vs12. Same number of players on each team. That means mechs should be balanced on 1 to 1 basis. A medium mech should be able to defeat a heavy mech, and there are lots of examples of mediums being more efficient at killing other mechs than heavies or assault are.

You don't have to believe my word, just take a look at this table:
Spoiler

The most deadly mech on the field is, quite shockingly, the Stormcrow. A perfect blend of speed, firepower and survivability. It can go 1vs1 with any other mech and has a high chance of winning.

Why can other medium mechs be like that? Why is the Trenchbucket only slightly better than a Locust? How we can get the ol' Hunchie back in shape?

#42 Blakkstar

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 06:36 AM

Currently, not much because most of them are inexplicably GIGANTIC in this game for some reason. In a Griffin you can look down on most assault mechs. They've been turned into weak heavies for some reason, when they should have smaller profiles and hitboxes.

Ideally, they should be specialist and support mechs. Watching the backs of heavies and assaults make a push, flanking, or jumping in when their build can help the most (like brawling in a ML boat, providing LRM fire, etc).

MWO really needs to rethink mediums because there's very little incentive to play them now. Lights have the size and get most of the ECM goodies, heavies are the workhorses, and assaults provide the firepower. Mediums are supposed to be the most common weight class, but they really have no advantages.

#43 Chagatay

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:00 AM

They are better at dying.

#44 Kin3ticX

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:32 AM

Medium mechs start to pack big boy weapons and support heavys/assaults well. The problem is, many allow the extra speed to get them into trouble and die.

#45 The Schwartz

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 09:41 PM

The one thing kind of unsaid and kind of said is that mediums excell at positioning. When you get the positioning and tactical feel of the role of the medium down (i know that sounds convoluded) you can do some crazy things with a medium that you just can't do in other weight classes. I personally love my BJ-1 w/4 JJ's 2x ac/5's and 4 ML. There is some armor stripping (gasp) required to allow enough ammo but, it's far from a gimmick mech. It's 88kmh of mech that can fire 20dmg almost straight down and is consistant damage. You can utilize more of the battlefield that other mechs just wouldn't consider.

The vindicator is a suprizingly awesome support (in all ways of support) You can even take a few shots aimed for an assualt or heavy and still return fire keeping your buddy alive all that much longer. It's a suprizingly tanky mech so is the shadowhawk for that matter.

Pretty much the one thing mediums do better than any other class is moral breaking and making people switching between targets as they have trouble figuring out either to take you or the assualt/heavy you're with out. They are the masters of surprise in all ways surprising. Either they'll have a surprising amount of weapons, a surprising amount or speed, get the most surprising vantage points, or take a surprising amount of damage. Not saying they do any of it better than any class but, when the heat is on, it can be hard to gauge which medium is filling what role if people are even looking at your medium.

Anywho, none of this was probably helpful at all.

#46 Eaerie

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 10:16 PM

there are quite a few fast durable medium mechs out there (hunchies, cents, shawks, wolvers, griffs) they pack a decent loadout and if played well can absorb a tremendous amount of fire before going down and can fill a lot of different roles from light hunting, brawling and long range fast support.

#47 Stormwolf

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 11:29 PM

The medium mech will never shine without a proper economy in the game. It's the most produced class, though you would never know this since we have inifinite supplies of everything.

In a game with limited supplies the availability of mechs would go something like this (from most common to rarest):
Medium > Light > Heavy > Assault.

Even level 2 tech like ER Lasers, Streak SRM's, ECM, etc would be in limited supply in the 3049 ~ 3052 timeframe. Mechs like the Centurion or Hunchback really shine here since they have rather common parts that can be easily replaced. Salvage usually helps out here, IS tech can be put to good use, Clan tech can be sold to NAIS for absurd amounts of money.

Far too much is missing from the game to ever make medium mechs shine.

#48 Elizander

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:07 AM

If you run with a group you can have really good DPS because the bigger mechs will be targeted first. You can do a lot of peek and shoot if you're fast or tank a fair bit if you're good at twisting.

Overall I think Medium mechs are good at getting to a good spot and unloading decent damage. They can sometimes rival heavies in damage output and a medium mech with 2 ER Large Lasers and CD mod that doesn't get noticed can put a hurt on the enemy team.

You get more options than most heavy and assault mechs in terms of positioning and you hit harder than lights. It requires a lot of experience in the game and a lot of good decision-making. When I play lazily I do horrible in my mediums.

#49 Basilisk222

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 12:36 PM

Medium Mech's in my experience excel at doing what needs to be done.

Medium mechs morethan other machs don't seem to be bound to a role. Often they're fast enough to Recon or chase lights, heavy enough to carry a good kit and potent weapons, while still often being flexible enough to equip different types of weapons allowing for all range applications.

They can support, and in some instances start battles, even being able to strip down mechs considerably heavier than them with better kit due to mobility and strong access to heavy, hard hitting weapons, (I've two shot an atlas in a griffin, SRM6's hurt in the rear torso)

While still others excel at support and sniping as well.

Mediums are not the end all be all, and some mediums are not as good as others, but from what i've battle against, they're generally very flexible, while not being good at anything in particular, they're often good at everything while poor at few things if any.

Are they better than lights nope, none are as fast, none are as well kitted with support nor as much mobility, but a light can't get rocked as hard as a medium, and just doesn't have the options in weapons.
Are they better than heavies? They're a little faster, but not by too much, but they can't load as many weapons or ammo, and they don't have their endurance either. they also aren't as deadly face to face.but heavies can't zip in and out of firefights, and are somewhat hindered by their size, while also paying more for the XL engines in terms of survival.
Are they as good as assaults? no where near the staying power or weapon options. But they can out manuver them and transport their weapons fast and hard in ways assaults and heavies can't, while assaults are starters or anchors in firefights.

In short, mediums allow all ranges, they do everything, a hunchie can guard, attack, wingman, cap, scout, support whatever you need. It can also take one HECK of a beating and keep going if the pilot's pretty good.

It takes a special pilot to be able to fill all of those shoes though, piloting a medium makes you make sure you're doing what you can, all the time, and recognizing what hat you need to wear and when.

#50 Jon Gotham

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 08:59 AM

Interesting points about flexibility....but.....there are heavies now who can do the same or near enough job. We have Timberwolves and Mad Dogs that can CRUSH mediums with staggering ease......
I've been rethinking my diktat on medium roles and building these days since the dawn of the uberheavy. I'm thinking more of a support role, longer ranges and lrm usage.
These days given even a halfway decent enemy-brawling is suicidal. These heavies who have near speed and near agility, with more armour and firepower want to have words lol.....

Play smart, stay away and pick your shots-make sure they don't notice you....

#51 Macksheen

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:07 AM

A good way to explore the differences is to start with a basic loadout - like 2AC5 and 2 PPC or 2 ERLL ... and see what mechs it goes on and the differences you see. Weapon loadouts, honestly, don't need to vary across most chassis and models - they can, but you can look at a core set and do the comparision. What you're left with after the static weapon load (x tons) is a mix of speed, armor, etc. ... and that's a good general way to determine which are different and how they are different based on the class / chassis.

You find some folks run this on their CTF-3D ... their Dragon Slayer ... their Fire Brand ... Their K2 ... and possibly their Shadowhawk. Firepower is similar, but the medium may be quicker / more maneuverable and can jump ... but also is hotter and has less armor.

#52 UrsusMorologus

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:04 AM

View PostMacksheen, on 03 October 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

You find some folks run this on their CTF-3D ... their Dragon Slayer ... their Fire Brand ... Their K2 ... and possibly their Shadowhawk. Firepower is similar, but the medium may be quicker / more maneuverable and can jump ... but also is hotter and has less armor.

I have noticed this with a Blackjack and Jagermech setup with similar gear--the Jager has more payload capacity and can take more direct hits, but the Blackjack is able to maneuver much more effectively which allows it to get in and out of striking zone with similar overall damage and survival rates.

Still, the mediums feel like they just underperform in general. They feel like they are worst of everything instead of best of everything.

#53 Bront

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 02:42 PM

What do mediums do better than other mechs?

Die.

Mediums lack the armor of heavies and assaults, and the speed and maneuverability of lights. Heavies and assaults are also more mobile than they might otherwise be due to skills, which hurts the mediums as well.

Does that mean they're worthless? No.

Mediums can still fill plenty of roles.

Fast mediums can perform admirably as Light Hunters/Heavy Escorts. Several top out at 116 or faster, and can mount some good anti-light ordinance (SSRMs, MLs and MPLs). This means they can keep the lights off the big boys, or provide support for lights who are out scouting. Shadow Hawks, Kintaros, Cicadas, Blackjacks, and Griffins excel in this role.

Range Support - Some mediums can do long range support fairly well from behind the front lines, be it direct or indirect. Medium to long range weapon loadouts and maneuverability to get to firing lanes while having the weight to bring some firepower Lights just can't. Mechs that fit this role tend to be Shadowhawks, Trebs, Kintaros, and Blackjacks can excell in this role.

Brawling support - Mediums aren't great at brawling solo in general, but they can bring a lot to a front line fight along with other mechs. Fast enough to maneuver in and out of the way, and enough firepower to turn the tide of a fight, these mechs provided the added firepower and confusion to help the big boys win a brawl. Mechs that fit this role tend to be Shadowhawks, Cents, Hunchies, Vindicators, and Blackjacks.

Flankers - With some extra speed, mediums can make a good flanking force. Shadowhawks, Griffins, Hunchies, BJs, Cicadas, and Vindicators can excel at this.

Which mechs best fill a role is debatable, but mediums can assist in all of these. Just be aware, they're generally not extremely fast, are fragile, and are not very small in most cases. Want fast and small, go with a light (or arguably a cicada). Want heavily armed? Go with a heavy or assault. Want something sorta inbetween? That's a medium. It's not a great or glorious space, but it's there.

#54 Creovex

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 03:17 PM

Zombie... the mediums are the best mechs for making zombies....

#55 Tim East

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 11:56 PM

View PostKmieciu, on 12 September 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Some people don't have $55 to spare at the moment?



The game we are playing is 12vs12. Same number of players on each team. That means mechs should be balanced on 1 to 1 basis. A medium mech should be able to defeat a heavy mech, and there are lots of examples of mediums being more efficient at killing other mechs than heavies or assault are.

You don't have to believe my word, just take a look at this table:
Spoiler

The most deadly mech on the field is, quite shockingly, the Stormcrow. A perfect blend of speed, firepower and survivability. It can go 1vs1 with any other mech and has a high chance of winning.

Why can other medium mechs be like that? Why is the Trenchbucket only slightly better than a Locust? How we can get the ol' Hunchie back in shape?

I do not know where you got that table, but it made me feel good about my Locust record. With that said, ton-for-ton, I have not managed to achieve a better efficiency rating with anything else. Using the absolute minimum tonnage to disable the maximum amount of enemy hardware strikes me as the clan ideal, which appeals to me in a nostalgia value sense. Even if the result is me driving an antiquated third-rate piece of junk not fit for garrison duty on Glory Station. PGI! Give me the Locust IIC!

Pointless ranting aside, the one weight class I consistently fear in my wonderful little death machine is the medium class. Even a jumping Timber Wolf lacks the ability to consistently connect with weapons fire (though the jumping ones ARE significantly more challenging than land-bound ones generally) and tends to inevitably fall prey to my ludicrous running and poking thing I do. I had an AC2-boating Cicada chasing me today and I thought I was done for, but he lost interest for some reason and died of not paying attention to me shortly thereafter. Mediums can turn fast enough to engage me and pack enough guns and armor that I cannot stick around and reasonably expect to win. So, I run from them. Cowardly, and not very clan-like, perhaps, but efficiency must be prized above all else, quiaff?

#56 M0rpHeu5

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:55 AM

It makes you a badass when everyone hides inside timberwolfs

#57 oldradagast

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:39 PM

View PostBlakkstar, on 12 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Currently, not much because most of them are inexplicably GIGANTIC in this game for some reason. In a Griffin you can look down on most assault mechs. They've been turned into weak heavies for some reason, when they should have smaller profiles and hitboxes.

Ideally, they should be specialist and support mechs. Watching the backs of heavies and assaults make a push, flanking, or jumping in when their build can help the most (like brawling in a ML boat, providing LRM fire, etc).

MWO really needs to rethink mediums because there's very little incentive to play them now. Lights have the size and get most of the ECM goodies, heavies are the workhorses, and assaults provide the firepower. Mediums are supposed to be the most common weight class, but they really have no advantages.


Agreed. Oversized mechs are DOA in this game, and no weight class has more oversized mechs than Mediums.

#58 Rayne Vickers

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 11:30 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 12 September 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

They would need a ton of positive quirks to become competitive again.


Remember, Remember the Fourth of November. All will change on that day, especially for IS mechs, and most especially mediums like my Hunch.

#59 Kmieciu

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 05:55 AM

View PostPrecocious Rayne, on 16 October 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:


Remember, Remember the Fourth of November. All will change on that day, especially for IS mechs, and most especially mediums like my Hunch.

wow:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3825208

#60 Ragnahawk

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 08:57 AM

View PostTripleEhBeef, on 10 September 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Mediums have the best blend of firepower and mobility of any mech class. Even a stock engine Hunchback can twist and turn much more quickly than any Assault. This might not sound like much, but anyone who's put their time in on mediums can tell you how incredibly survivable you can be by taking advantage of that trait.

I've taken down AC40 Boomjacks that had just gotten finished instagibbing another heavy mech by flipping his next shot into s shield arm before boring out his damaged XL torso.


I can vouch for that.





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