263 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

I noticed a discussion of PPC type weapons began in a thread regarding Clan quirks, so because this topic is of particular interest to myself, an avid PPC fan since MW2, I decided to start a thread so others could bring this discussion here.

It is pretty clear that PPC type weapons are outclassed by lasers and gauss rifles, and even LRMs find more use. ER PPCs (both kinds) are even worse off because they are SO hot. 15 heat for 10 damage? And 5 extra splash damage if you are in a Clan mech? There is a reason why they are never used, except with significant quirks. On top of that, this weapon is designed for long rage engagements (700m-800m), yet it is very clumsy at this range, and you have to guess at what your opponent is going to do. I think that the ER PPCs should have a significant velocity increase from where they are now, up to where they were before the velocity nerf. I believe it was somewhere around 1500 m/s? Because they are so hot, they are not spammable and are not good in sustained fire fights, especially at closer ranges where you can't get away or hide. The one issue I see that would come along with this is that once again the ER PPC is now close enough to use effectively with Gauss rifles. I don't see a huge issue with this as laser vomit builds combined with Gauss rifles still have more damage capability, but there are some who do, so I propose as a solution to the issue of the 50 pt PPFLD alpha strike, the Dire Wolf gets a negative cER PPC velocity quirk.

So this leaves the PPC on the table. Obviously the PPC is very effective because even though it has a shorter range, it is much cooler and can actually be adequately cooled when more than one are used. Even these are not used unless significant velocity quirks are present, so I would suggest that PPC velocity be buffed to somewhere around 1200 m/s. So they still cannot be effectively combined with Gauss, but are a bit more useful without being as accurate as the PPCs of old.

Obviously, quirks involving these weapons would have to be adjusted to take into account these changes.

What does everyone else thing?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I only suggest 1500 m/s for I-ERPPCs, as with some other suggestions the C-ERPPC should be less to keep them semi-balanced (1250 for the C-ERPPC would be good).

As for the standard PPC, first and foremost needs the minimum range removed since this is supposed to be a midrange weapon, it seems silly that at less than 90m, the ERPPC is the better brawling weapon. As for velocity, the PPC should probably match the C-ERPPC in velocity.

All ACs could stand a velocity increase (except the AC2) as well which may be for another thread but need to at least be mentioned if the sync between AC5s and PPCs is still feared.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

I only suggest 1500 m/s for I-ERPPCs, as with some other suggestions the C-ERPPC should be less to keep them semi-balanced (1250 for the C-ERPPC would be good).

As for the standard PPC, first and foremost needs the minimum range removed since this is supposed to be a midrange weapon, it seems silly that at less than 90m, the ERPPC is the better brawling weapon. As for velocity, the PPC should probably match the C-ERPPC in velocity.

All ACs could stand a velocity increase (except the AC2) as well which may be for another thread but need to at least be mentioned if the sync between AC5s and PPCs is still feared.

Well PPCs and AC5s are pretty well synced right now actually, pretty close in velocity.

I was pushing for slower PPCs, because the weapon as a whole is a lot more useful because you can mount 2 of them and not run hotter than the sun, so it would help to balance them a little bit, while helping the ER PPCs sniping aspect a bit.

I still think Clan cER PPCs should be fast, even though they are lighter and do more damage, giving the Clans a little bit of FLD is okay, remember they are still hotter than heck.

[Novawrecker]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

As for the standard PPC, first and foremost needs the minimum range removed since this is supposed to be a midrange weapon, it seems silly that at less than 90m, the ERPPC is the better brawling weapon. As for velocity, the PPC should probably match the C-ERPPC in velocity.

Why? This game may not be a direct translation of the TT, but sure derives much from it. Standard PPC min range was always part of it and lead toward other interesting developments (such as the PPC Capacitor, Heavy PPCs, and Snub-Nose PPCs {my favorite as it was a tad lighter, had no min range, but also lost some long range}).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Well PPCs and AC5s are pretty well synced right now actually, pretty close in velocity.

200 m/s is a decent enough gap for two mid range weapons, the only reason the PPCs get paired with AC20s is because at such short range the 300 m/s gap is less of an issue. I would prefer PPCs be paired with AC10s and ERPPCs get paired with AC5s because pairing actually encourages boating of at least different types rather than 4 PPC/6 LL overlords.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I was pushing for slower PPCs, because the weapon as a whole is a lot more useful because you can mount 2 of them and not run hotter than the sun, so it would help to balance them a little bit, while helping the ER PPCs sniping aspect a bit.

PPCs are slow and are only useful on mechs with serious velocity quirks on top of heat gen/cooldown quirks to justify them over LL/LPLs. They really aren't a good place right now.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I still think Clan cER PPCs should be fast, even though they are lighter and do more damage, giving the Clans a little bit of FLD is okay, remember they are still hotter than heck.

Maybe 1250 is too low, but there needs to be some advantage the I-ERPPC has over the C-ERPPC considering it is 1 ton-1 crit larger but has the exact same heat and no splash.

Novawrecker, on 02 April 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Why? This game may not be a direct translation of the TT, but sure derives much from it. Standard PPC min range was always part of it and lead toward other interesting developments (such as the PPC Capacitor, Heavy PPCs, and Snub-Nose PPCs {my favorite as it was a tad lighter, had no min range, but also lost some long range}).

Minimum range is bad game design not to mention harmful to lighter end chassis that were meant to use PPCs and are left practically defenseless against there own competition. Lights are the bane of any Vindicator because of that stupid minimum range and you should at least have some chance to do damage within that range rather than getting a simple "lol no"

[Summon3r]

+1 OP, jump sniping was annihilated by the introduction of hover jets and there for took care of a lot of the QQ in regards to ppc/guass synch issue. not to mention guass charge.

the price paid by carrying erppc's is so steep in regards to heat that a return to there 1500ms should not be an issue, hell id even go with 2000ms, they are afterall supposed to be blue lightning lol, but that would be to lore'ish. in a brawl you are done for, less its one of the nicely quirked mechs

[Mcgral18]

Give ERPPCs faster travel speed than normal PPCs, but also give them a longer cooldown.


Make them effective long range weapons, but don't allow them to brawl well. Heat is a concern, but with coolshots and 20 DHS, you can still brawl for multiple salvos, keeping up with the brawling weapons.


If HoverJets™ are ever fixed, the above could become an issue....but they aren't.

[STEF_]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

Give ERPPCs faster travel speed than normal PPCs, but also give them a longer cooldown.


Make them effective long range weapons, but don't allow them to brawl well. Heat is a concern, but with coolshots and 20 DHS, you can still brawl for multiple salvos, keeping up with the brawling weapons.


If HoverJets™ are ever fixed, the above could become an issue....but they aren't.

1500m/s (or even more), old true JJ, and strong trembling reticule while in the air.

[Davers]

The only reason PPCs fell out of favour was the slow speed for long distance sniping. If they were restored (or made even faster) they would replace ERLLs.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

Give ERPPCs faster travel speed than normal PPCs, but also give them a longer cooldown.


Make them effective long range weapons, but don't allow them to brawl well. Heat is a concern, but with coolshots and 20 DHS, you can still brawl for multiple salvos, keeping up with the brawling weapons.


If HoverJets™ are ever fixed, the above could become an issue....but they aren't.

It doesnt matter how you cut it, PPCs do not brawl well anyway. You dual fire them maybe 2 times and you shut down, you chain fire them and lasers and brawl builds out DPS you badly. Even 28 DHS is not enough to let me dual fire 2 CERPPC more then twice without waiting to cool down.

PPCs in general should be made to be mid range, punchy support weapons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>





I think I will maintain my idea on what they should be in terms of stats
PPC: 10/10, 3.5-3.75s CD, 1175-1200ms, 540 range
ISERPPC: 10/12, 4s CD, 1300ms, 810 range
CERPPC: 15/15, 5s CD, 1150ms, 810 range.

Only certain mechs get quirks that increase velocity, but never above 1300ms. PPC gets slightly faster CD, giving it a RoF advantage over ERPPC, but keeps its 90m min range, less velocity so as not to obsolete the ISERPPC, since the PPC is 10 dmg but 10 heat.

ISERPPC gets less heat generation, same current CD, but the highest base Velocity, all quirks for velocity and heat reduction are removed or vastly lowered. It would then become a slightly situational, but far more versatile long range support weapon. The advantage of firing under 90m would actually be somewhat worth the increased heat then.

CERPPC is the punchiest of them all. THe 1150ms base velocity makes it slowest of all PPCs, but by far the deadliest and the hottest. Only certain mechs get quirks to allow it to travel faster, WHK, ADR, SMN. It gets the longest CD to trade off its higher damage and more time needed to charge it up. It would be a nice PPFLD non guass Clan weapon. Still hot, still situational, still kinda tricky to use with 1150 velocity, but slightly better then it is now. THe slow velocity might discourage CLans from just going ERPPC everything except on the select few mechs designed for it. I think DWF could get a further CD nerf to kinda discourage the Gauss/PPC troll builds....maybe 5.5-6s.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

Give ERPPCs faster travel speed than normal PPCs, but also give them a longer cooldown.


Make them effective long range weapons, but don't allow them to brawl well. Heat is a concern, but with coolshots and 20 DHS, you can still brawl for multiple salvos, keeping up with the brawling weapons.


If HoverJets™ are ever fixed, the above could become an issue....but they aren't.

Well, 20 dbl heat sinks is no small feat in an IS Mech, Clan mechs are a little easier sure. Even in a Timber Wolf if you want more than 2 ER PPCs you are going to be hard pressed to find the heatsinks, unless you just add machine guns. I still think the heat is enough of a limiter in a brawl. I mean what Mech can bring 2 ER PPCs, 20 DHS (now 22 tons of pod space), and anything else meaningful? I think just a Dire and a Peacedove at this point. Timber could bring an LB5 maybe (meh..). I dunno, its difficult to make an effective build with ER PPCs because 20 damage just isn't that much and they are so hot. The vomit builds are hot too but they also for 24-25 DHS and do 50ish damage.

[darkchylde]

Novawrecker, on 02 April 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Why? This game may not be a direct translation of the TT, but sure derives much from it. Standard PPC min range was always part of it and lead toward other interesting developments (such as the PPC Capacitor, Heavy PPCs, and Snub-Nose PPCs {my favorite as it was a tad lighter, had no min range, but also lost some long range}).

Min Range in TT never stopped the weapon from doing damage - it only made it more difficult to fire.

[Soy]

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Well, 20 dbl heat sinks is no small feat in an IS Mech, Clan mechs are a little easier sure. Even in a Timber Wolf if you want more than 2 ER PPCs you are going to be hard pressed to find the heatsinks, unless you just add machine guns. I still think the heat is enough of a limiter in a brawl. I mean what Mech can bring 2 ER PPCs, 20 DHS (now 22 tons of pod space), and anything else meaningful? I think just a Dire and a Peacedove at this point. Timber could bring an LB5 maybe (meh..). I dunno, its difficult to make an effective build with ER PPCs because 20 damage just isn't that much and they are so hot. The vomit builds are hot too but they also for 24-25 DHS and do 50ish damage.

Assault Robots?


Banshee can do 2 ERPPCs, 6 MPLs...with all crit slots filled and 1.5 free tons free.

I'd have to actually build one and not just refurbish the WubShee. Stalkers I imagine could do it as well.


The peeking ability is nice, though almost no Clam mechs have that ability. Just the Crow (or I suppose the Nova with JJs? Still a large target)

[Gas Guzzler]

Davers, on 02 April 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

The only reason PPCs fell out of favour was the slow speed for long distance sniping. If they were restored (or made even faster) they would replace ERLLs.

I'm not sure about that, ER LLs are pretty useful. Even at 1500 m/s aiming is more difficult with ER PPCs out near 1000m, which takes place a lot in CW, and with advanced zoom average players can do nasty stuff with ERLLs. They are cooler, more damage per ton, and when quirked can have more range.

[dubplate]

With the heat how do people use ERPPCs now? Tried them on my Warhawk, Adder, Ily, in testing grounds and none of them seem too great with them, didn't even bother trying to drop in a match. I know during the poptart days they were very annoying (and useful) but since that doesn't seem to be an issue these days hopefully they get a bit of a buff. I never touched PPCs due to min range because I know I'd end up firing them when someone was too close.

[LordKnightFandragon]

dubplate, on 02 April 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

With the heat how do people use ERPPCs now? Tried them on my Warhawk, Adder, Ily, in testing grounds and none of them seem too great with them, didn't even bother trying to drop in a match. I know during the poptart days they were very annoying (and useful) but since that doesn't seem to be an issue these days hopefully they get a bit of a buff. I never touched PPCs due to min range because I know I'd end up firing them when someone was too close.

They dont, its why noone uses them. ton for ton, I think its safe to say, every weapon is better then PPCs and ERPPCs....THey are far to hot for the damage they deal, when compared to the laser vomit meta...or hell, when compared to almost everything...

PPCs in general suck totally....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

It doesnt matter how you cut it, PPCs do not brawl well anyway. You dual fire them maybe 2 times and you shut down, you chain fire them and lasers and brawl builds out DPS you badly. Even 28 DHS is not enough to let me dual fire 2 CERPPC more then twice without waiting to cool down.

Try telling that to the pre-nerf TDR-9S, 3 ERPPCs was manageable even in a brawl. Don't underestimate the power of pinpoint damage.

[LordKnightFandragon]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Try telling that to the pre-nerf TDR-9S, 3 ERPPCs was manageable even in a brawl. Don't underestimate the power of pinpoint damage.

LOL, im not talking about the over quirked bullshit mechs, I mean in general. That TDR9s Was crap, 7 heat ERPPCs.... idk how PGI even thought that was a good idea.

[Kain Demos]

PPC should stay at 4.00 second recycle time. I say LOWER heat even more to 8. Change velocity to 1100 m/s.
ERPPC should go to 4.5 second recycle time. Lower heat to 10, change velocity to 1300 m/s.
C-ERPPC should go to 5 second recycle time. Change velocity to 1300 m/s and change the splash damage to 15 pinpoint.

If you think I am nuts with those heat values look at what they did with the ERLLAS. It is supposed to be 8 damage 12 heat but they changed it to 9/8 because that kind of damage/heat ratio would be crap in this game yet they did not touch the ERPPC with this same amount of favor.

They left the PPC 10/10 and ERPPC 10/15 but move the LLAS to 9/7 from 8/8 and ERLLAS to 9/8 from 8/12????

No wonder why everyone uses lasers.

Edited by Kain Thul, 02 April 2015 - 01:53 PM.