114 replies to this topic

[Lexx]

Grisbane, on 25 April 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

so basically you want to change the 6 ac2 king crab from this



(fires 800 rpm now)

to this

It's more like this,...



So a rapid fire King Crab using the worst ballistic in the game would be more OP than a 6 UAC/5 Daishi?

Edited by Lexx, 26 April 2015 - 02:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

AC2 needs to have 0.7 heat to be worth picking over AC5.

[SOL Ranger]

El Bandito, on 26 April 2015 - 02:35 AM, said:

AC2 needs to have 0.7 heat to be worth picking over AC5.

It's not good enough, AC2 has to have significantly lower heat than the AC5, this to compensate its poor combat capabilities and to bring it down to a reasonable HPS due to its high rate of fire.

An AC2 with 0.2 heat per shot will give 0.28 HPS which is much more reasonable for its properties, whereas the AC5 is at 0.6 HPS, but it has the very practical benefits of higher alpha and DPS which are by far the superior properties to take into consideration in determining the value of these weapons.

[El Bandito]

SOL Ranger, on 26 April 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

It's not good enough, AC2 has to have significantly lower heat than the AC5, this to compensate its poor combat capabilities and to bring it down to a reasonable HPS due to its high rate of fire.

An AC2 with 0.2 heat per shot will give 0.28 HPS which is much more reasonable for its properties, whereas the AC5 is at 0.6 HPS, but it has the very practical benefits of higher alpha and DPS which are by far the superior properties to take into consideration in determining the value of these weapons.

But AC2 has better DPS per ton, do not forget. Giving it 0.2 heat per shot will only be asking for nerfs later on.

[jss78]

Sorry to necro this up, but I was recently looking to buy an AC/2 cooldown module, and was surprised to see that there isn't one.

There's a post from Russ on the first page of this thread, from close to a year ago, saying that they're looking into the missing modules. So I don't think they've simply forgot about it.

Surely the AC/2 isn't so OP that it specifically shouldn't be given one, whereas e.g. Gauss does get one? So what gives?

[MeiSooHaityu]

It takes a LONG time to count missing modules .

Yea, I figured they are just hoping people forget about it (though I haven't either).

Maybe it's the 5~6 A/C2 Jager or 6 A/C2 King Crab they are afraid will become too OP, who knows *shrug*. I think that is a bit silly (seeing as heat is also pretty high on the A/C2 with 3 or more).

They also haven't added a module in a really long time either, so maybe creating any modules is on the back burner for now to spend time and resources on other content.

Who knows.

[Ivan Govnov El GastroFreak]

Give us AC2 cool-down module!
I rose up, wait!
I shouldn't shoot clanners with deadly AC2...I swear!


Lets make a poll about that?!

Power of deadly dakadaka AC2

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 26 April 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

But AC2 has better DPS per ton, do not forget. Giving it 0.2 heat per shot will only be asking for nerfs later on.

DPS per ton doesn't mean diddly when there are other weapons with vastly superior ratios. Better DPS per ton, and that's a ratio of a whopping 0.46 D/TS. Whooo! A Small laser is 1, a Medium laser is 1.28, a Small Pulse is 1.44, and don't get me started on the Clan lasers.

That, and the fact that absolute DPS and per-shot damage are more important, is why only the big guns are really considered.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 02 September 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

That, and the fact that absolute DPS upfront damage is more important, is why only the big guns are really considered.

Fixed.

EDIT: Aw, you ninja edited that in!

Edited by FupDup, 02 September 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Some like to say the metagame revolves around max DPS, and those "some" are some of the best players around, so I was just repeating the party line. But, I felt disingenuous, since I actually believe the metagame revolves around maximizing alpha first and sustainability second.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

Some like to say the metagame revolves around max DPS, and those "some" are some of the best players around, so I was just repeating the party line. But, I felt disingenuous, since I actually believe the metagame revolves around maximizing alpha first and sustainability second.

I've seen some people using terms like "jump DPS" to describe poptarting, which sounds like an oxymoron to me...DPS is about going full dakka dakka, while poptarting was SPECIFICALLY about minimizing exposure time to fire only one salvo.

I think that perhaps they might be using different definitions of DPS than we are? I use the definitions that are used by most other games like MOBAs and what have you...DPS is about doing constant steady damage over time, while burst damage (alpha strike in BT terms) is about a single huge spike. When I think DPS, I think of something like the Heavy's Minigun in TF2.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Maybe they meant damage per shot or salvo rather than the more conventional term.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

DPS per ton doesn't mean diddly when there are other weapons with vastly superior ratios. Better DPS per ton, and that's a ratio of a whopping 0.46 D/TS. Whooo! A Small laser is 1, a Medium laser is 1.28, a Small Pulse is 1.44, and don't get me started on the Clan lasers.

That, and the fact that absolute DPS and per-shot damage are more important, is why only the big guns are really considered.

Small laser 135 meter range, Medium Laser 270 meter range, Small Pulse 110 meter range, CERLL only 1.1 DPH and long duration. AC2 has 720 meter range with 2 DPH. I think 0.6 heat is perfect for the AC2, to bring it with in line with other ACs' DPH. Certainly not 0.2 cause that would not be balanced.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Between 0.5 and 0.75 seems pretty good to me when it comes to the heat, though I'd much rather see a boost in its rate of firepower... or both.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Small laser 135 meter range, Medium Laser 270 meter range, Small Pulse 110 meter range, CERLL only 1.1 DPH and long duration. AC2 has 720 meter range with 2 DPH. I think 0.6 heat is perfect for the AC2, to bring it with in line with other ACs' DPH. Certainly not 0.2 cause that would not be balanced.

720 meters is not as appealing when most engagements start between 450 and 550 meters before closing, when there is ample supply of cover, when the damage dealt is extremely easy to spread around, when there is projectile flight time, when the damage dealt is low, when the gun seriously eats into your ability to carry anything else, and when you can spend relatively small amounts of extra resources to get a weapon that does 150% more damage and 8% more DPS or one that does 150% more damage and 116% more DPS.

0.6 heat is what I've been preaching for the most part; 0.5 is the absolute maximum reduction.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

720 meters is not as appealing when most engagements start between 450 and 550 meters before closing, when there is ample supply of cover, when the damage dealt is extremely easy to spread around, when there is projectile flight time, when the damage dealt is low, when the gun seriously eats into your ability to carry anything else, and when you can spend relatively small amounts of extra resources to get a weapon that does 150% more damage and 8% more DPS or one that does 150% more damage and 116% more DPS.

0.6 heat is what I've been preaching for the most part; 0.5 is the absolute maximum reduction.

AC5 needs to have 1.5 heat anyway to have the same 3.33 DPH as the others. That weapon is inconsistently good.
Also, AC2 is not designed for dueling, it is designed for long range suppression.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 September 2015 - 07:43 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

AC5 needs to have 1.5 heat anyway to have the same 3.33 DPH as the others. That weapon is inconsistently good.

AC/5 too good? When is the last time you used the gun? Preferably, on a mech with minimal or no ballistic quirks, and when you don't have 3+ of them. Tell me how good they are then (hint, they're pretty mediocre).

I'd actually rather use a regular Large Laser instead of an AC/5 on the majority of mechs and builds.

El Bandito, on 02 September 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Also, AC2 is not designed for dueling, it is designed for long range suppression.

It currently sucks at that purpose. The IS and Clan ER Large Lasers are vastly better at that role because they deal vastly more damage with a bit higher accuracy (even 2000 m/s rounds can miss at really long ranges) and less tonnage required.

When I snipe at people from the other end of the map with my ER Large builds, the red team often tries to duck down and get out of my sight quickly. The AC/2 though just tickles people.

Edited by FupDup, 02 September 2015 - 07:48 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 02 September 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

AC/5 too good? When is the last time you used the gun? Preferably, on a mech with minimal or no ballistic quirks, and when you don't have 3+ of them. Tell me how good they are then (hint, they're pretty mediocre).

When compared with AC2 and AC10--their closest relatives, it is indeed inconsistently good.
Last time I used AC5s? I used AC5s just now on my Banshee-3E. Oh, and plenty of CUAC5s on my Direwhale.

FupDup, on 02 September 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

It currently sucks at that purpose. The IS and Clan ER Large Lasers are vastly better at that role because they deal vastly more damage with a bit higher accuracy (even 2000 m/s rounds can miss at really long ranges) and less tonnage required.

When I snipe at people from the other end of the map with my ER Large builds, the red team often tries to duck down and get out of my sight quickly. The AC/2 though just tickles people.

Sucking at a role doesn't mean it needs to be buffed to ridiculous degree. 0.6 heat is what I advocate and I find it ridiculous for people to suggest it to have mere 0.2 heat.

BTW, ERLLasers at long range tickle as well. AC2 actually shakes and deals more damage than ERLLs if the target does not duck back.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 September 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

AC5 needs to have 1.5 heat anyway to have the same 3.33 DPH as the others. That weapon is inconsistently good.
Also, AC2 is not designed for dueling, it is designed for long range suppression.

It's not good at long-range suppression. To be good at that, you need at least two (with current stock RoF, 3). Bringing multiples is heavy, which reduces speed (important for changing position and herd the enemy) and reduces ammo supply (important because suppression only works if you can keep firing at where the targets might pop-out to discourage them from actually doing so). You can't run an XL because suppression requires you to stay exposed, so now what? ER Large and even ERPPC are much, much better at it because they can sustain fire indefinitely, because they are hit-scan, and because they deal more damage than an AC/2 even at the AC/2s optimum. The DPS advantage on the AC/2 doesn't matter, since anybody using ER weapons will be poking from cover, giving them a higher effective DPS on target.

The AC/2 offers much better potential as a duelist weapon to keep damage on-target when complemented by more intense weapons. 2x AC/2 and an AC/10 on a JM6-S with some lasers, for example, is incredible, because the 10 will sheer your armor away and the AC/2 will keep you from firing back. If you do fire back, you might win, but you will be easy pickings for anybody left in the match since you will be cored out and flashing red. High sustainable DPS is the hard-counter to sword-and-board builds in the brawl or the open firing line.

0.6 heat, at least 3 DPS (preferably 0.54s CD like on the BJ-1DC), and it will become quite reliable as a duelling weapon when paired with other things. If you want it to be a long-range suppression weapon, you'll have to keep all of the shake and smoke effects and at least double the ammo per ton so you can actually provide suppressing cover fire and create a force multiplier rather than having to make every shot count as direct damage.

Truly, though, the game needs the LAC/2.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 02 September 2015 - 08:10 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

When compared with AC2 and AC10--their closest relatives. I used AC5 just now on my Banshee-3E. Oh, and plenty of CUAC5s on my Direwhale.

The Clan UAC/5 isn't the AC/5. The AC/5 refers specifically to the year 3025 vanilla Inner Sphere AC/5. This guy right here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon/5

If we used the AC/2 as the baseline, I think that the majority of the weapons in this game could be considered overpowered...let's not go there. The AC/10 vs AC/5 is pretty much a wash nowadays...it mattered back during the old IS poptarts days, but in present times there's not that much of a difference.

That Banshee doesn't count because it can carry up to 3 and it has ballistic quirks. The Dire Wolf definitely doesn't count because an ULTRA 5 is a completely different beast than a regular AC/5...

El Bandito, on 02 September 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Sucking at a role doesn't mean it needs to be buffed to ridiculous degree. 0.6 heat is what I advocate and I find it ridiculopus for people to suggest it to have mere 0.2 heat.

BTW, ERLLasers at long range tickle as well. AC2 actually shakes.

The difference is that the lasers HURT people much more than a class-2 Autocannon. Suppression is when people try to avoid you and duck down to get out of your way. People do this when they are afraid. Weapons that do significant damage have a higher likelihood of making somebody concerned about their well-being than weapons which don't have significant damage.

For instance, a mech like that aforementioned dakka Daishi will make people crap their pants and GTFO out of your way, making it probably the best suppression mech we have right now.

Reduced heat doesn't make an enemy mech want to stop what he's doing and move quickly to cover. Even with zero heat that wouldn't happen. Even with hilarious NEGATIVE heat that wouldn't happen.

Edited by FupDup, 02 September 2015 - 08:13 PM.