632 replies to this topic

[TopDawg]

A few suggestions to players organizing/orchestrating this, and PGI as well:

To the players:

• Figure out which ideas/posts encapsulate a proposed solution - maybe even give people time to make/submit their own suggestions.
  
• Assemble these posts/ideas into a thread and poll, and then have people vote on which idea people want to see move forward.
  
• From here there are a few options, but two possible ones could be: either eliminating a proposed idea every x amount of time (whichever has the least amount of vote percentage is eliminated - but this is a timely process); or simply take the two with the most and hold a final vote for them.
  
• Since Russ cited an 80+% figure (as an example), it may then be necessary to hold a final yes/no vote on the proposed solution to see if it can pass the tests/metrics put forth thus far.
  
• Self-policing your own community will be important. No matter which 'side' you 'are on', you need to commend well-written, well-reasoned posts while simultaneously condemning and counterpointing more toxic posts. Not just sometimes, but every time.

To PGI:

• PGI you must give visibility to something like this, either through the launcher or through community e-mails (although admittedly community e-mails would be better left for getting people to vote on directions of the game, what to work on next, etc).
  
• If you're truly trying to perform a reset, it may be in your interest to unban people so it's a fair shake as to who people want for their 'elected leaders'. If said people deserve a ban after a second chance, just ban them again (and then everyone knows you were right in your prior decision).

[Shredhead]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 12 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Most of our councils are in the exile.

First you have to unbann those known passionated ppl who are well known by community in order we can elect them.

Those ppl are known as sandpit, vassago Rain, Raodbeer, victor manson , Chronojam and many other i forgot to meantion

Victor Morson has so earned his ban, as has Vassago. Morson also has no interest in the wellbeing of this game.
I don't need nor want these people to speak for me.

Edited by Shredhead, 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I foresee it will be very difficult to get 80% of the community to agree on this. Best of luck to you guys. I guess I don't see the problem with it because I almost never use LRMs, and when I do, I have TAG. Sometimes there is multiple mechs with ECM but that is the gamble when you take an LRM boat....

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Very pessimistic that you could get 80% of the people to say change it.

I think the point is being missed, if 50% of your gaming population thinks it's broken, it should be changed.

You should never have a polarizing item like ECM in the game. It drives people away.

And really this isn't even JUST about ECM, it's about ECM, the Information Warfare Pillar and LRMs getting a complete rework.

JUST changing ECM isn't enough.

[Rustic Dude]

Shredhead, on 12 September 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Victor Morson has so earned his ban, as has Vassago. Morson also has no interest in the wellbeing of this game, same goes for the goons.
I don't need nor want these people to speak for me.

Man, what did goons do to you? I reckon that they are pretty funny and helpful fellows when they are not squawking.

[Agelmar]

PGI picks a focus group with community input.

Focus Group is comprised of the following:
IS Light
IS Med
IS Heavy
IS Assault
Clan Light
Clan Medium
Clan Heavy
Clan Assault

Each FG or Class Advocate is responsible for all chassis and changes (perks, hitboxes etc) and will work together to filter and funnel suggestions to the devs. Topics like ECM changes that impact all weight classes will be worked with through the group as a whole. RP players, PUG players, and competitive players should all make the group.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Shredhead, on 12 September 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Victor Morson has so earned his ban, as has Vassago. Morson also has no interest in the wellbeing of this game, same goes for the goons.
I don't need nor want these people to speak for me.

You are not in the possion to judge over ppl´s bann as there was never a offical announcement for their bann.

Heck even most of those meantioned ppl do not know exactly why they have been banned.

Its cool that you do not need those ppl to speak for you but other ppl on the so called " island" might.

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[fil5000]

Saxie, on 12 September 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Chrono would definitely have something to add to the conversation. He's done some fantastic write ups before. Roadbeer on the other hand... well just follow his twitter lol.


edit in regard to the #savemwo, the reason why it failed is because who was backing it....

You know Chrono is part of the group you're deriding there, right?


On a separate note: Russ, there's a lot of people currently banned that would be able to contribute to this, and most of them got banned because this sort of thing wasn't forthcoming. Is there hope of any sort of amnesty for banned users?

[Stalkerr]

Shredhead, on 12 September 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Victor Morson has so earned his ban, as has Vassago. Morson also has no interest in the wellbeing of this game.
I don't need nor want these people to speak for me.

Please don't mess this up. This is about making the game we all care about as amazing as possible, not about anyone's personal feelings about individuals/groups. If we don't work together, we'll fail separately.

[Stormwolf]

It's a nice gesture, but it's pretty late and many people have lost their trust in PGI at this point.

At any rate, I'd make ECM more like the canon:

ECM has three modes: ECM, ECCM and Ghost Targets (see TacOps)

ECM: Disrupts C3, Artemis IV, BAP and NARC within a radius around the mech.
ECCM: Cancels out ECM
Ghost Targets: Hide units from radar or send out false blips


BAP and NARC would also need to get restored to their canon stats:

BAP: Discovers hidden units, you could allow to see units that aren't within LOS (in a radius around the BAP mech). This includes shutdown mechs.
NARC: It doesn't run out of power, also add a chance that the NARC missile could be destroyed if a mech with one is fired upon.

fil5000, on 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

On a separate note: Russ, there's a lot of people currently banned that would be able to contribute to this, and most of them got banned because this sort of thing wasn't forthcoming. Is there hope of any sort of amnesty for banned users?

Gotta agree with this, it could help PGI to reconnect with a large number of former members.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 12 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Very pessimistic that you could get 80% of the people to say change it.

I think the point is being missed, if 50% of your gaming population thinks it's broken, it should be changed.

You should never have a polarizing item like ECM in the game. It drives people away.

And really this isn't even JUST about ECM, it's about ECM, the Information Warfare Pillar and LRMs getting a complete rework.

JUST changing ECM isn't enough.

I think the 80% is to ensure its not just LRM jockeys that want the change... you also have to consider that not the ENTIRE player base will vote because not everyone is ultra active on the forums.

[Tolkien]

Russ Bullock, on 12 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Okay how about this, this is what many of you have been waiting for:

Well first a question: Do you think you the community can come to an agreed upon consensus? One in which if the changes are implemented everyone says great job PGI on listening to us now we feel great about ECM and your ability to listen to feedback?

If the answer is Yes then I suggest the following:

You the community decide how your going to present a proposal, nominate a peer that you feel has the best handle on this, put together your own player council whatever you like but present a proposal that your peers vote on. The vote would likely need to be far greater than just 51% in favor. Perhaps something more like 80+%

At that point PGI will analyze the proposal, if we see any technical problems or balance problems that we feel perhaps you didnt see, we will point those items out to you. Then if necessary you can adjust your proposal and put it to a vote again, if successful PGI will again analyze and repeat if necessary until we have a final design solution for implementation.

PGI will then communicate how long it will take to implement with full explanation as to why, and we will patch the changes in upon the agreed upon delivery date. Once complete if this whole process has gone smoothly and civily we will proceed with doing things like this far more frequently or at least for other areas of the product that are controversial.

What do you say?

Why would we believe you this time when you've shown utter disdain for the obvious will of 90+% of the community before?


Seriously, tell us all why this time is different? Is it because we have you by the short and curlies on your new game and you're finally realizing you need your community more than it needs you?

Unban vassago rain, unban roadbeer, unban sandpit, unban victor mason - these, standing cow of the DHB and Anders of the goons would all make great members of the player council because they will tell you what you NEED to hear, not what you want to hear. Ignoring the voices of players like these is what got the game (and your new game) where it is today.

Edited by Tolkien, 12 September 2014 - 12:45 PM.

[Fut]

Stalkerr, on 12 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Please don't mess this up. This is about making the game we all care about as amazing as possible, not about anyone's personal feelings about individuals/groups. If we don't work together, we'll fail separately.

This should be posted into Team Chat for every single drop in the PUG-Q

[ApolloKaras]

Rustic Dude, on 12 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Man, what did goons do to you? I reckon that they are pretty funny and helpful fellows when they are not squawking.

Have you been to R/mwo recently?

[Jacob Side]

Anybody but JagerXI.


Going to have to beak out the Rules book and read up on the rules of ECM and all that and do some thinking

Edited by Jacob Side, 12 September 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[A o D]

The reminds me a bit of the EVE stellar council proposal in the wake of the the T20 scandal. That program had varying levels of success depending on how much respect CCP had for its members at any given time.

I'd be willing to support a player representative body if there was a real commitment on the part of PGI to respect the views of said body, rather than treat them as an echo chamber or automatic approval of already existing policies. However, demanding an 80% margin of concensus is ludicrous. No legitimate political body on Earth can make up their mind with that level of unanimity, much less a bunch of neckbeared stompy robot lovers like us.


As for ECM, it does too much. No 1 or 1.5 ton system should be able to completely shut down a whole class of weapons like Streak SRMs. Nor should ECM be some kind of stealth module. What it should do is block communications, so that mechs in its effect cannot share targeting data. I like that it provides a bubble where friendly mechs can't be targeted for the purposes of indirect fire, but I feel that currently ECM does just a little too much. Maybe if its kept more in line with its table top roles, some of the in game counters to it can be eliminated.

[Gas Guzzler]

Stormwolf, on 12 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

At any rate, I'd make ECM more like the canon:

ECM has three modes: ECM, ECCM and Ghost Targets (see TacOps)

ECM: Disrupts C3, Artemis IV, BAP and NARC within a radius around the mech.
ECCM: Cancels out ECM
Ghost Targets: Hide units from radar or send out false blips


BAP and NARC would also need to get restored to their canon stats:

BAP: Discovers hidden units, you could allow to see units that aren't within LOS (in a radius around the BAP mech). This includes shutdown mechs.
NARC: It doesn't run out of power, also add a chance that the NARC missile could be destroyed if a mech with one is fired upon.

I like the ECM and BAP changes... NARC never running out of power is scary though.

[Star Captain Brofist]

I was a Producer in AAA for many dog years. Russ, you will always be hated, no matter what you do. You have to accept that. 80% community agreement should also not be your goal, since in games the majority of players often do not understand the game at the depth you want. Likewise your most vocal minority is not always correct. Your goal should be to create a reliable channel of feedback, actually implement it, and then iterate. Changing the values for weapons, for example, is basically an integer change and a new build- not risky and cheap on time. Do that once a week and suddenly things are flowing again.

Your team needs to understand that MWO’s success is as a competitive online simulation. It needs to be balanced with that in mind and catered to those types of players. Your lead designer has steered the game in an entirely different direction and made it much more complex in an attempt to give both depth and simplify. I don’t mean to insult the guy since he is probably doing his best, but given his development history he has no experience working on these types of games. As a result, most of the people originally attracted to your game are no longer interested since it no longer caters to them anymore. I imagine most of the community feedback will go directly against his design vision. The only way forward is if you accept that a lot of our feedback will be directly opposed to your lead designers attempts at game balance.

[Rustic Dude]

Saxie, on 12 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Have you been to R/mwo recently?

Yep, they are very angry but their criticisms tend to be valid, or at least mirror mine pretty well.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tolkien, on 12 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Why would we believe you this time when you've shown utter disdain for the obvious will of 90+% of the community before?


Seriously, tell us all why this time is different? Is it because we have you by the short and curlies on your new game and you're finally realizing you need your community more than it needs you?

Unban vassago rain, unban roadbeer, unban sandpit, unban victor mason - these, standing cow of the DHB and Anders of the goons will be the player council, and you will listen to their decisions.

I thought IGP called for 3PV? Or so we are told?