632 replies to this topic

[Richard Warts]

Wolfways, on 13 September 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

Oh because cover cares whether the missiles are direct or indirect...and you talk about skill lol.

You know? You're right! Terrain and cover are OP. Let's nerf that too.

Edited by Tabu 73, 13 September 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[Wolfways]

Tabu 73, on 13 September 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Nope, they aren't. Tag allows for LRMs to track whatever you're holding the tag on. Narc... Do you really need someone telling you how it works? UAV... Again self explanatory, it goes up, you have a lock, fire your weapon, smile and watch the LRMs rain down on his head. I know this may seem unorthodox but try direct firing your LRMs, you might just find out how useful that can be.

Yes they are.

If you think it's fine that ECM blocks LRM's because there are T2 upgrades to LRM's then please ask PGI to make ECM also counter lasers and AC's as they also have T2 upgrades, ER and Ultra.

[Richard Warts]

Wolfways, on 13 September 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yes they are.

If you think it's fine that ECM blocks LRM's because there are T2 upgrades to LRM's then please ask PGI to make ECM also counter lasers and AC's as they also have T2 upgrades, ER and Ultra.

Ah now I see the problem, everything apart from LRMs are OP to you.

[Mcgral18]

Tabu 73, on 13 September 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Ah now I see the problem, everything apart from LRMs are OP to you.

[topgun505]

If ECM is so good, why do I not see hardly any of it being played? If they didn't have the 3/3/3/3 in place I have to wonder how many people would play Ravens, Cicadas, Spiders, and Kit Foxes and thus if we would see ECM hardly at all. The way people talk about ECM I would think we would see 9 players on every team equipping it. But I'm seeing 1-3 per team average.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Tabu 73, on 13 September 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Nope, they aren't. Tag allows for LRMs to track whatever you're holding the tag on. Narc... Do you really need someone telling you how it works? UAV... Again self explanatory, it goes up, you have a lock, fire your weapon, smile and watch the LRMs rain down on his head. I know this may seem unorthodox but try direct firing your LRMs, you might just find out how useful that can be.

This is a kind of non-helpful comment, not really receiving anything from the other side, and not really offering anything either. all I get is you like ECM and think its fine the way it is. ECM IS unbalanced. Now if Tag needs to be buffed, or if UAV and drones and radar detection need to be changed, consider that in your argument then. But with comments like that, we won't get anywhere.

[Wolfways]

topgun505, on 13 September 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

If ECM is so good, why do I not see hardly any of it being played? If they didn't have the 3/3/3/3 in place I have to wonder how many people would play Ravens, Cicadas, Spiders, and Kit Foxes and thus if we would see ECM hardly at all. The way people talk about ECM I would think we would see 9 players on every team equipping it. But I'm seeing 1-3 per team average.

I see less lights since 4x3 was added to the game, but i still mostly only see the ECM variants. Mostly only Atlas D-DC's too.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

topgun505, on 13 September 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

If ECM is so good, why do I not see hardly any of it being played? If they didn't have the 3/3/3/3 in place I have to wonder how many people would play Ravens, Cicadas, Spiders, and Kit Foxes and thus if we would see ECM hardly at all. The way people talk about ECM I would think we would see 9 players on every team equipping it. But I'm seeing 1-3 per team average.

The only ECM mech I like is my DDC, and I can't play that all the time because it's unfair to the rest of you. So I mainly roll my Ravens, or Jenners, or Spiders, or one of my play mechs, like the odd Thunderbolt or my CTF3D.

even my RVN3L stays in the garage.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 13 September 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Richard Warts]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 13 September 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

This is a kind of non-helpful comment, not really receiving anything from the other side, and not really offering anything either. all I get is you like ECM and think its fine the way it is. ECM IS unbalanced. Now if Tag needs to be buffed, or if UAV and drones and radar detection need to be changed, consider that in your argument then. But with comments like that, we won't get anywhere.

Reiterating what other players have stated, adding comms in game so that pugs can better coordinate their fire would solve a lot of the issues they're having. Nerfing ECM wouldn't be neccisary. Furthermore, running a specialist mech is a gamble; sometimes you're effective, and sometimes you aren't. Taloring the game to where LRMs become THE meta, which is what will happen if you nerf ECM, isn't the solution. I will say that beefing Tag a little would be acceptable, but that won't stop LRM fairies from complaining about how they have to equip Tag or BAP in order to have a more effective LRM boat. No matter how many things are buffed or nerfed to better suit the LRM fairie, he'll still find something to cry about and as a result the game will suffer for it.

[zortesh]

Wolfways, on 13 September 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I see less lights since 4x3 was added to the game, but i still mostly only see the ECM variants. Mostly only Atlas D-DC's too.

I rarely see non ecm atlai, the ecm makes the ddc the obviously superior choice, other then being ther woorld biggest piece of narc bait.

topgun505, on 13 September 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

If ECM is so good, why do I not see hardly any of it being played? If they didn't have the 3/3/3/3 in place I have to wonder how many people would play Ravens, Cicadas, Spiders, and Kit Foxes and thus if we would see ECM hardly at all. The way people talk about ECM I would think we would see 9 players on every team equipping it. But I'm seeing 1-3 per team average.

I see 2-4 ecm mechs in almost every match, ravens and cicdas and especially spiders are very popular, kitfoxes too, i see ecm lights more often then i see other lights,even jenners and embers seem less popular.

[Richard Warts]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 13 September 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

You will never be able to balance causal players against high ELO players. Never! The META will just change, shift and the ROFLstomp will go on, just with other setups. So instead of trying to buff the only weapon that causal players use (LRMs), you should make other weapons more valid - meaning taking away the charge of the Gauss, make the AC/20 faster again, take away Ghost Heat for a better system (there have been plenty of outdrafted suggestions already) etc

ECM, as far as it goes, is currently mainly used to prevent LRM spam from being effective. If you give me a Laser-AMS with the doubled efficiency of current AMS, I might reconsider taking in ECM. Of couse, this Laser-AMS should be rather hot, meaning that if the LRM boat sits back and fires, I sit back and shoot the missiles away. The advantage of that SHALL be, that the LRM boat should go out of ammo before dealing any significant damage. So the deal is the following:
You give the ECM mechs the ability to mount Laser-AMS, at the expense of disregarding ECM. This Laser-AMS is a direct counter to LRMs, meaning it should be more effective against LRMs than ECM - which can be countered by 7 hold cow methods.

I lose my "cloaking device" ability and the enemy can use its target info gathering, so it is for any other weapon besides LRMs a disadvantage to use the Laser-AMS. The advantage on the other hand is, that if you want to hit me or my group with LRMs, that you have to take me out first, to get rid of that magical AMS. This means, that pure LRM boats will still suck, as they do not engage - they are meant to be supporters. No direct fire weapons - bad luck. If you are too afraid to charge in, and every PUG beside you too, then nobody will take me down and I can just charge in. So you notice, that you need Brawlers to "open the gap" - meaning me. That is Role-Warfare.

Someone who charges in and takes out priority targets (Brawlers), someone who is able to use gaps in the enemies defense to open a small hole (Snipers), someone in the second line to support with fire in crowded areas (LRMs)

If you only use Snipers, you should get Brawled away. If you only use LRM-Boats, you should get ROFLSTOMPED, if you only use Brawlers, you should have problems against long ranged weaponry.

High risk: Brawler. Short range, highest DPS.
Medium Risk: Sniper, long range. You still need LOS, but your DPS should be really low, but pinpoint. So medium reward.
Medium-Risk: Dakka - you need LOS, have still a high DPS, but spread damage. Medium/Long range. Medium reward.
Low Risk: 3rd line Support (LRMs) - Low reward - spread damage, medium/low DPS and only useful, if enemy counters are taken out (ECM, AMS)

Changing any of the parts inside those rulesets, must be changed on the other side of the medal to balance itself out. Right now, LRMs are low risk, high reward. Whoever wants that increased even more reward, shall give an explanation how to outbalance that properly.

Excellent, excellent points! I could hug you right now.

[Richard Warts]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

SRM-only Mechs are not viable unless within 270m.
PPC-only Mechs are not viable under 90m.
AC40 Jags are not viable at high-mid to long ranges.
Machine gun-only Mechs are not viable under many/most conditions.




As usual:

• may the better team win
  
• new players need better facilities for helping them

Amen

[Túatha Dé Danann]

zortesh, on 13 September 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Tag and narc work fine on an atlas, but what about a raven or kitfox in the middle of a blob?

So you assume, that the whole Blob is full of LRM-boats? Well, if yes, then they deserve to die.

Quote

any decent players will keep a eye open for uav,

Aye, for more than one reason. LRMs are only on part - spotting itself is the other.

Quote

and tagging a light ecm mech in the middile of a enemy force is suicide,

Thats why you have brawlers and snipers. Someone has to do the job of getting that ecm down, right? If there are no frontline-fighters in your squad, you cannot open the gap. If you cannot open the gap, all of your LRMs will be useless - which is well deserved then.

Quote

narcing a moving light is easy, if they make the mistake of being predictable in there movements.

You should be more worried about the frontline-fighters. You cannot hold off a push just with just LRMs. If you think you should be able to, then the trade-off between risk and reward is screwed up.

Quote

lrms/tags/narcs all suffer from one problem, there effectiveness is inversely proportional to the ability of your target, and two good light ecm pilots = lrms are completely negated.

No, they suffer from the missing frontline element. Every LRM boat means one less frontline fighter. Just 2 or 3 of them missing is a whole lot enough for any halfway balanced unit to push you to the moon and back again. So if you still think that LRMs are or should be the primary force of attack, I advise you to reconsider their role. They are meant to support the main frontline unit from the third line, giving some additional damage to enemies or to take out enemies. As an allied Atlas has ECM ready to counter enemy ECM, in a balanced setup (implying both sides have the same amount of ECM) you will always get the chance to fire your LRMs, but with much less effect than a frontline-brawler.

So again, if your team does not have a frontline, nor a second line but only third-line mechs, you deserve to be rolflstomped from the enemies first, second and third line within a minute.
ECM only works against 3rd line mechs. So the whole discussion, to be honest - is about negating all mech roles beside cheap camping and laying back, because nobody wants to lead the charge as they are too afraid to maybe die for the benefit of the whole team.

[Ahja]

LOL! Well I will say that I am not going to respond to a post and go away for two days before seeing if anyone responded. I am good with this idea. However I think we all could agree on this point I should not lead the consul.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Tabu 73, on 13 September 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Excellent, excellent points! I could hug you right now.

Don't screw up my street credibility!

[Richard Warts]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 13 September 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

So you assume, that the whole Blob is full of LRM-boats? Well, if yes, then they deserve to die.


Aye, for more than one reason. LRMs are only on part - spotting itself is the other.


Thats why you have brawlers and snipers. Someone has to do the job of getting that ecm down, right? If there are no frontline-fighters in your squad, you cannot open the gap. If you cannot open the gap, all of your LRMs will be useless - which is well deserved then.


You should be more worried about the frontline-fighters. You cannot hold off a push just with just LRMs. If you think you should be able to, then the trade-off between risk and reward is screwed up.


No, they suffer from the missing frontline element. Every LRM boat means one less frontline fighter. Just 2 or 3 of them missing is a whole lot enough for any halfway balanced unit to push you to the moon and back again. So if you still think that LRMs are or should be the primary force of attack, I advise you to reconsider their role. They are meant to support the main frontline unit from the third line, giving some additional damage to enemies or to take out enemies. As an allied Atlas has ECM ready to counter enemy ECM, in a balanced setup (implying both sides have the same amount of ECM) you will always get the chance to fire your LRMs, but with much less effect than a frontline-brawler.

So again, if your team does not have a frontline, nor a second line but only third-line mechs, you deserve to be rolflstomped from the enemies first, second and third line within a minute.
ECM only works against 3rd line mechs. So the whole discussion, to be honest - is about negating all mech roles beside cheap camping and laying back, because nobody wants to lead the charge as they are too afraid to maybe die for the benefit of the whole team.

The logic... It's so... Beautiful...
That's why I love playing against you 12th Donegal guys. Always a good fight.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

topgun505, on 13 September 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

If ECM is so good, why do I not see hardly any of it being played? If they didn't have the 3/3/3/3 in place I have to wonder how many people would play Ravens, Cicadas, Spiders, and Kit Foxes and thus if we would see ECM hardly at all. The way people talk about ECM I would think we would see 9 players on every team equipping it. But I'm seeing 1-3 per team average.

Because most people want to play the easy LRM boat and do not want to be the one covering the group at the expense for being the primary target or dealing less damage. The risk is higher - the rest is self-explanatory.

Often I see ECM lights running away from the main group, because they do not bother to cover their team. I see ECM-Atlas mechs charging into the enemy to open a gap just to realize, that nobody pushed with him. I see people not locking targets, I see people not firing on mechs that shut down after overheating, I see people only using LRMs and TAG without ANY backup weapon and I see people not being able to use counter ECM. All of this and more is not a problem of the ECM, but a problem with the person sitting before the screen. Blaming ECM because people are not able to use basic gameplay elements - which are to be honest rather simple - is just wrong. (I just hold back my anger, not using strong words here)

[Richard Warts]

They're at it at this thread as well http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry3717262
Let our voice be heard.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

GreyGriffin, on 13 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

That's what's happening here. The tone of the post and its hedged and vague statistics are clearly laid out not as a challenge to overcome, but a challenge we, as a community are meant to fail. We don't have the tools to create a democratic parliament, and when we realize that, we are supposed to be comforted that they are doing the best that they can with what they have got.

If I was wrong, we'll have this kind of thing on the frontpage of the site, with new web pages and forums and communication on how this kind of community integration would happen. Don't anybody get your hopes up just because there was an offhand forum post.

Now, if PGI really wants to prove me wrong, then please, get to it. Sing this intention from the mountaintops, elicit player participation and express magnanimity for your critics.

I love Battletech. I want to love MWO. But PGI, you have a lot to prove to regain my trust.

I hope you're wrong. I mean, yeah that was the first thought my cynical side came up for this, that it was just glorified busy work. But the hopeful side of me thinks that maybe PGI is trying a new tactic of working with their community instead of in spite of their community. I've heard terrible things about PGI from places I didn't even know had been familiar with PGI. When you have strangers telling you not to play MWO or even to try Transverse, the first time you happen to mention it casually, then you know the problems you thought lived on an island have apparently grown legs, or wings, and have learned to get around.

I think PGI has learned to use the power of honey instead of vinegar, meaning that emulating the good practices of other gaming communities will go a long way towards improving their reputation "in the wild", as well as ensuring their longevity with 2nd projects. I thought that people just weren't into Mechwarrior Online, but with the new PC Gamer article, I just realize that it's still an open wound under the skin.

Anyway, not to get off topic, I believe the community will act in good faith, regardless. We're going to try to fix this issue, because there IS a solution. And we're going to try to work with PGI, because they offered. It doesn't have to be on the front page, why advertise your problems? In here, in the guts of the players, in the community threads, that's where we'll hash this out. Can't do it unless we try.

Also, Clans having an ECM advantage makes sense as long as they have a balancing weakness elsewhere...

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 13 September 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[Cerlin]

ECm has been an OP part of the game for so long its become passe. Of course its a huge advantage, but not as bad as when it was first introduced. That does not make it balanced.

I have gotten used to it, but my question really is; why was this made the first issue brought up by PGI? I feel like its only one of many issues but is the main issue in info warfare being more important in the game.

Of all the ideas so far I still like Rask4l's idea of different ranges for detection for different mechs and an active/passive mode.