1306 replies to this topic

[Aym]

Russ Bullock, on 13 September 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

I have heard a few requests to wait until around Tuesday for a poll, sure that is fine with me.

There as also a fair point for those concerned about having a group speak for them, remember they will need to present a full proposal and you the players will read it and get to vote. So I think you can feel secure in knowing that the proposal is really going to have to speak clearly to a portion of players.

We will also discuss that 80% more to ensure it isn't just those that spend time on the forums but that they have significant play time which are stats I can easily gather. We will figure that part out.

As to the PPC conversation that just popped up, super tempting jump in and share all the history and logic which I am sure many would love to hear. But first things first, staying on topic we have chosen this ECM subject as our test case. I happen to think it is a great starting point.

I to do not care for the fact that many groups including competitive ones won't take any spiders except the ECM version. That to me does smell not quite right, never has.

Or Commandos at all? Or any Raven unless it's a 3L? Or any Cicada unless it's ECM? Heck competitive teams wouldn't take an atlas unless it was the DDC and then even that stopped in favor of pop-tarting for how long? Almost a year?

[ProfessorD]

I'll add to the votes for:

Homeless Bill
Roland
TheMagician

EDIT: And also for 1453 R, since I don't see him/her on the list yet.

Edited by ProfessorD, 14 September 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Not sure how I got mixed up in this

I'm not sure if a council would expedite the process or derail it.

I've been impressed with Livewyr's attempt to collect data regarding a large volume of ECM suggestions, but ultimately someone has to put the various thought into a literal poll, so I suppose a council could handle the task of evaluating the proposed changes and creating such a poll. It needs to be the definitive poll so it would need more input than a single player's opinion of what should be present on the ballot.

There are certainly some names on that list that are people I have butted heads with in the past (I am more pro-PGI than Vassago Rain, for example) but I'm wiling to let that be water under the bridge.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 14 September 2014 - 08:34 PM.

[WarZ]

Player council is a bullshit idea if they have any sway in terms of what is addressed and what is not.

The devs should be more aware of their own game. If they are going to make an effort at something, screw this council idea, and put more time into understanding the issues which frustrate and annoy players the most. Read more. Form your OWN opinions. The council idea is PURE laziness.

[Khobai]

Its worse than pure laziness.

Allowing a handful of elite players to make game-changing balance decisions for everyone?

How could that possibly go wrong

[MischiefSC]

I am concerned that the 20 some posts I've made saying this and the 100 or so from other people saying the same thing.

This council has absolutely no authority, at all, to decide anything. Their purpose to to collect and condense the dozens and dozens on posts on the subject into some discussable game mechanics and ideas, which the community can then vote on. Its purpose is solely to gather and present community created data and to debate it with each other without all the regular 20 pages of static and laser balancing ideas and stuff that fills such threads. We, the community, will still then debate it on our own and then vote on the ideas.


The point of the council isn't to make decisions - it's simply to condense, present and discuss the ideas we put forward. That's it.

[Smagaman]

My nomination is for Lusankya. He would look at the ECM system objectively to make sure it is well rounded and balanced.

[MischiefSC]

Smagaman, on 14 September 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

My nomination is for Lusankya. He would look at the ECM system objectively to make sure it is well rounded and balanced.

Added to doc, message sent.

[Khobai]

Quote

The point of the council isn't to make decisions - it's simply to condense, present and discuss the ideas we put forward. That's it.

What if I have an idea that I think is good, but they dont like, so they deliberately rebuke it? What if they only select ideas that coincide with their own agendas? Some of these people that are being nominated have terribly radical ideas about how to change MWO, and not in good ways. Ive read them... and it scares me lol. Even if the council has no real power, I still fail to see how it will adequately represent the minority anyway. At least in a democratic poll the minority vote is visible.

Ive seen player councils fail countless times in other games for all of the above reasons. And worse of all it creates false hope for the community. I personally think theres a better way

Edited by Khobai, 14 September 2014 - 09:09 PM.

[Targetloc]

I'll vote for Livewyr. He's done good work on this.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

What if I have an idea that I think is good, but they dont like, so they deliberately rebuke it? What if they only select ideas that coincide with their own agendas? Some of these people that are being nominated have terribly radical ideas about how to change MWO, and not in good ways. Ive read them... and it scares me lol. Even if the council has no real power, I still fail to see how it will adequately represent the minority anyway. At least in a democratic poll the minority vote is visible.

Ive seen player councils fail countless times in other games for all of the above reasons. And worse of all it creates false hope for the community. I personally think theres a better way

They don't get to pick and choose ideas. They have to take your idea, good or bad, and ensure it's in a comprehensible format and involves the game mechanics required to be presentable to PGI. Then they have to put it forward to the community. If they don't then sure - you're right, they've failed. Do you think we all are too incompetent to recognize that happening though? Do you think that they would blow this opportunity like that?

I guess I'm at a loss as what you expect to happen here. This task force is going to be a lot of grunt work and presentation work. They're going to collect all the actual suggestions from among the noise and present them. If ideas are identical they don't duplicate obviously. Then we're going to have two simultaneous discussions - one will be those people discussing in a 'closed setting' (as in a thread only they post in either here or elsewhere) so we can get a clear debate from people who the community picked as 'generally worth listening to'. We're also going to have our own discussion here like we do on everything.

Then, after we've had a bit of time to chew it all over and see the options, we're going to vote. Winner gets presented. The task force doesn't vote, we do. They then present this idea to PGI.

Then... the task force is gone. Back to the drone factory with the rest of us. If they do a bad job they get hounded and stalked by disgruntled players and you know it

Other ways are not on the table though. There are no other options. It's 'do this' or 'leave things as they are'. If we do this and can make this work and then make a better suggestion for how to handle it next time that's awesome. maybe PGI will listen and give us that chance. Maybe they'll say they want it done this way again.

That's not our call though. This is what we get. This is the avenue we have to do this. We can do it or not do it. Do something else is the same as 'not do it'.

This will be a democratic poll; that's the whole point. Right now though we have nothing to vote on because we don't have all the different ECM options put together into a vote worthy format...

Someone could go collect it all, but who? Hmm.... what you need is some people the community is generally willing to listen to to go collect all that stuff so we can vote, democratically, on which change we like.

Maybe we should make a task force to go do that who would you select?

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 September 2014 - 09:18 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

MischiefSC, on 14 September 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

I am concerned that the 20 some posts I've made saying this and the 100 or so from other people saying the same thing.

This council has absolutely no authority, at all, to decide anything. Their purpose to to collect and condense the dozens and dozens on posts on the subject into some discussable game mechanics and ideas, which the community can then vote on. Its purpose is solely to gather and present community created data and to debate it with each other without all the regular 20 pages of static and laser balancing ideas and stuff that fills such threads. We, the community, will still then debate it on our own and then vote on the ideas.


The point of the council isn't to make decisions - it's simply to condense, present and discuss the ideas we put forward. That's it.

Yes, this is how I see it- PGI wants a poll with a large volume of voters and a clear winner. A council can never be a majority of players, the real power lies in the community's vote and PGI's veto.

[SoggyGorilla]

Ill give a vote for homeless bill

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 14 September 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Its worse than pure laziness.

Allowing a handful of elite players to make game-changing balance decisions for everyone?

How could that possibly go wrong

Don't forget, the community will still have to vote on the council proposal, and PGI will have the final say. The council is not the ultimate decision makers--they are just think-tank of sorts.


I also nominate FupDup. Forgot to nominate him earlier, but the dude is very knowledgeable on balance, and wrote some good threads over the course of the game life.

[Carrie Harder]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Don't forget, the community will still have to vote on the council proposal, and PGI will have the final say. The council is not the ultimate decision makers--they are just think-tank of sorts.


I also nominate FupDup. Forgot to nominate him earlier, but the dude is very knowledgeable on balance, and wrote some good threads over the course of the game life.

Rumor is that Fuddy Duddy got the hammer as well...but that new Russ thread gives hope.

[Vanguard319]

Hoax415, on 12 September 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Heffay is on another level of shitposting troll.

But I would conceed that Vass and Sandpit could be considered a yin to your yang. But the reality is your "side of the coin" as it were will be represented no matter what because the other side of the coin has been mostly driven off.

Say what you want about those two but they stuck around and were still here for some constructive if mean criticisms until they were banned.

AND WHEN WERE THEY BANNED?

To clear the way for PGI's announcement of several things that you know they would have been mocking and smack talking pgi for:

1. the announcement of Transverse
2. the announcement of 90 days til CW we promise part 3
3. the announcement of another clan mech grab deal

Everyone who was banned "for actions on another forum" in those weeks leading up to those 3 announcements should be reinstated. If they come back flaming and trolling fine ban them again but those bans were BS to try to silence people who they knew wouldn't just open their wallets for another clan pack and praise yet another blueprint of CW with no proof of actual work on it.

I also think that if Vass or Sandpit said they were willing to handle the responsibility and bs that will come along with trying to make this work I'd trust them to do it.

I would also point out that Heffay has habitually trolled the MWO discussion thread in the Star Citizen forums in an attempt to get it derailed and shut down. He's guilty of the same crap that Niko tried to pull on Reddit essentially. That act alone should disqualify him from ever being on this council.

I would elect Homeless Bill (if he was willing) to the council, he has posted ideas for fixing problems like PPFLD, and has ever acted in the best interests of the game and community, those are traits you want in a council member: Someone who is objective, altruistic, and can make unbiased decisions.

Edited by Vanguard319, 14 September 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 14 September 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Its worse than pure laziness.

Allowing a handful of elite players to make game-changing balance decisions for everyone?

How could that possibly go wrong

Khobai, missing the point, intentionally, since 2012

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 September 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So I found a few nominations I'd missed, more messages sent.

Currently 46 people listed, 3 confirmed 'no' answers, 19 'yes' answers.

Here, again, is the google doc we're working on.

If you're on the list please feel free to update unit affiliation (if any) and applicable association and any info you want people to see about you. If you can't edit the doc please PM me.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 September 2014 - 10:16 PM.

[Galen Crayn]

That was the BEST decision PGI could make. Why? Now everybody will see that it is impossible to make changes EVERYBODY will agree with. We are humans. Most of humans are idiots, bad guys, egoists, and we all have different views on things... Thats the reason you cannot save the world and thats the reason you cannot make game changes everybody likes. An 80% majority is IMPOSSIBLE! So, touche PGI. Best decision ever!

[Tunes of war]

so i nominate karl steiger

http://mwomercs.com/...-karl-streiger/

he is also called the spreadsheet warrior...