221 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Lynx7725, on 13 September 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Given the varied response, I think we first need to establish whether the community at large feels there's a need for ECM changes, and the extent of those changes.

Translation: The first order of business is to establish whether or not there actually is a problem, measure how big it is if it is indeed one, and then decide what to do.

[Lynx7725]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

Translation: The first order of business is to establish whether or not there actually is a problem, measure how big it is if it is indeed one, and then decide what to do.

Yes.

If the majority of the population don't find ECM a major problem, why opt for major surgery? There are circumstances where this might indeed be necessary, but due diligence suggest that we should verify there is a problem before we put in a solution that is looking for a problem.

I can simplify things to two schools of thoughts. The first is from the group of people who came into the game late, and has only even known ECM as it is. From that perspective, they had to deal with it as a normal part of a game and has no choice but to deal with it. It's just an everyday occurrence. Usually, I think the normal response would be more incremental improvements to existing rather than radical departure.

The other school is from the group of people who either were here before ECM was implemented, or had seen other ways ECM had been implemented, and felt the current implementation have room for improvements. Usually. I think this group looks for more radical solutions rather than incremental improvements,

Note that I don't deem either side as right or wrong, there are situations which calls for radical solutions and for incremental improvements. Which kind of solution the current state of ECM really calls for, I don't know for sure.

My perspective is that if we are looking at a radical solution, we probably need to relook at the entire ecosystem, and that included the basic fundamental targeting system, a la the active/ passive radar modes. That, as it implies, likely requires a tremendous amount of programming and UI work from PGI. Which would impact other efforts. Hence, the value proposed by the radical solution must be sufficiently high to justify for it.

If there is an incremental solution that can be utilized while PGI mulls over the radical solution, that might be worthwhile to explore too.

End of day what we want (mostly) is some form of change. If we really want to make the change a reality, we must also consider all the upstream and downstream impact and mitigate/ ensure the change we want to have happens.

[JD R]

First question for me have we anything that proves ECM is real op? Any data that shows ECM increse w/l of a team?

Second do we real need this large changes? Would it be not easier to make some buffs to the counters? BAP counters all ECM in 250m range. Reduce TAG time for ECM shieled Mechs and inctese the time ppcs stop ECM?

Third if you real want to nerf the indirect fire of lrm hold in mind that if you do this you will ban lrm from use in nearly every player pool. Becaus the main advantage of lrm is easy fire to all enemys and you wont find that much light just spotting for a maybe there lrm boat.

Edit: Already now hard spotting with TAG and NARC needs ECM to give a good chance to do the job without dieing in seconds.

Edited by JD R, 14 September 2014 - 12:16 AM.

[Ed Trend]

Hello mates ,

I am non-pay player whom i excluively using a Cicada 3M the past 4 months at least and only in solo que/PUGland , and its the only mech i have in my mechbay atm . Thus , i would like to throw on the discussion table some thoughts from my experience for you to take under consideration.
A) For first , altho many players consider ecm as OP , i can tell you for a fact that in every single game , i am targeted by LRm'S . 4 out of 10 times i even die from em . So imho , its an "OK" equipment , rather than "OP" . Why is that?...well for first lets consider which mechs can carry an ecm . A version of commando , a version of a spider , a raven , a cicada and an Atlas . So , the crashing majority of the mechs that can actualy utilize ecm are below 40 tons with the exeption of the atlas . That practicaly means , that for those mechs , a hit of a full salvo of lrms form a boat , its death sentence....simple as that . And there are so many ways to counter the ecm (eccm , narc , uav , distance itself , etc), that those mech , rarely make it out of a fight alive . I know i dont .
B ) player stated many times that mounting an ecm requires no sacrifice . Thats incorrect . The ecm weights 1.5 tons , which its considerable for a mech of such a low tonage .
C) ecm blocks only the weapons which they require a lock on .Thats lrms and streaks . For any other weapon , if the mech can see me , can hit me just fine . Under that perspective , even the advanced zoom module , its a great passive mean of detection and my ecm cant do jack against it .
D) ecm's range its rather limited . No matter how hard i try , i usualy manage to put only 1/3rd of my team under my umbrela most of the times. Even if the whole team concentrates in a single spot , the space that 12 mechs occupy , push some of em out of ecms range , even if i am standing in the middle of the formation .
E) distance is a crucial factor on countering the ecm . Even if you are an lrm boat , if you stay close to your team in the front lines (which many good players do) , you dont even need to have a tag installed . Cuz when the brawling dance begins , everyone is close enough to detect anyone so lock ons are rather easy to get . On the other hand , if you only want to stay like 1-2 blocks away from your base and just shoot missiles , then sorry but you ll have to suffer the conciquences of your choice.
F) while tag and narc can negate a single ecm , a uav can cancel all of em.
G) other option to counter the lrm boating , are not existant atm. The ams is totaly inaquate as we all know and deprivation module needs 15k exp and 6mil cbils to install , which practicaly means that without a premium , a players needs 3-4 weeks of hard playing in order to get it.
H) an ecm installed on an atlas is of little use . The mech itself is so big that can be detected visualy from across the map , and its speed too low to effectively keep up with rest of the team in order to provide stealth cover .

Like i said above , i am PUG cicada player . My mech is nothing but a compact table with 2 legs . This means that anything that hits me from above , hits one of the 3 parts of the xl engine . Now having that in mind , and take into consideration that PGI recently made IS lrms to hit in pinpoint manner instead of doing splashing dmg , you can understand that a single voley of lrms20's , with its curved trajectory , is enough to take me out . Clan lrms on the other hand , have no distance limitations , thus combined with a tag , can double as srms . I already lost duels with kitfoxes and stormcrows on that manner .
Also , i would like to mention here that many players cant understand that the mech is a complete vessel and not a mobile lrm turret . That means that one needs to invest not only on weapons , armor and engine only , but in electronics aswell . One also needs to understand the concept of "primary and secondary" weapons . You cant put 4 lrms20 on your mech and nothing else , or lrms 20 and large lasers and expect to be effective with that . If you do that , then yes , i ll sneak behind your teams front lines with my ecm , solo you out and kill you and you wont be able to do anything . That doesnt mean that my ecm is overpowered , it means , you havent installed anything to detect me , and no proper weapon to fight me off . Like i said before , most mechs that can carry an ecm are below 40 tons , which means that they cannot withstand fire from MPL's , PL's , srms , SL's , SPL ,s for too long , and for sure , if you fight back it wont insist on going toe to toe with something far bigger than itself . My point is....ok add the lrms you need , but also add some dps weapons for yourself defence , they are not useless you know.
As for last but not least , the light class mechs participation in metches at the moment , is somewhere between 8-12% . The crashing majority of them are ecm versions cuz practicaly they are the only playable lights that one can get . Nerfing the ecm , will effectively kick the last of these lights out of the que .Cuz , lets face it....who would buy a mech that has no true perpose , can die from a single avarage alpha , while on the other hand it needs 30-40 secs of continues firing to get a kill due to its low firepower , unless it has at least an edge on something?

@PGI
At the end , ppl complain about my ecm , i complain about their lrms , the other guy complains about IS balistics , and the guy next to him complains about ppc's , clan mech etc . We all consider the others "OP" . Whos right and whos wrong ?....have you ever considered the possibility that we are all both right and both wrong?...
My opinion is that the problems lays not on ecm , lrms , autocannos , ppc's , etc. It lays on the game itself . If i drop in a game that the other team has 3 ecms and 6 lrms boats , while my team has 1 ecm and mostly brawling weapons and lose badly , then i ll come to forums infurated screaming "nerf lrms" . On the other hand , if i am an lrm boat on a team full of lrms against a team full of ecms and speedy mech , i ll lose badly and start screaming "nerf ecm"...and so on and so on...
Can you fix the matchmaker to chose better than only tonnage and mech class?...imho...no you cant .Thats why WOT and WOA are dieing already . There are too many variables and when you balance something towards one direction , something else get unbalanced on another direction . Its like the sleeves on a sort shirt . You pull the left sleeve down , the right sleeve goes up .
What can you do about it ? . There is only one thing that can be done . Let the game balance itselfs . Drop the 12vs12 arena fps philosophy , and open the maps to as many players as possible . Seperate the community in 4 major nations (innersphere , clans , mercenaries , periphery) and let em balance themselfs through fighting and experience . Remove any limitations in weaponry , mechs , maps , strategies , numbers , anything....and let the nations balance each other . Create a system which can allow ppl just jump into a map and either defend of attack when a nation leader makes a call into arms , no matter if they are solo player , battalion members , clan members , etc .Unleash this games potentials...completely!...no restrictions at all .
And if after that , something needs to be changed (which i doubt) , well i am pretty sure it will be focused , certain and obvious , to you and to everyone else , so there will be no arguments.

Thats all i had to say , plz excuse my english , are not my native language

Thnx for your attention

Edited by Ed Trend, 14 September 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Hey guys,

So 6 pages in I've been requested to post my own Pillars that I took a crack at through my own full ECM change proposal:

http://mwomercs.com/...sal-spiralface/

Anyway's as far as how this relates to this thread:

CURRENT STATE OF ECM:

CURRENT ECM MODEL:

• Provides sensor cloaking past 1/4th of a mechs normal detection distance. (200 Meters without sensor range module or BAP.)
  
• At 180 meters blocks mechs mini map target data, Blocks mech from relaying targeting data to team mates, and prevents any form of missile lock from LRM’s and Streaks.
  
• Disrupts TAG locks at 180 meters
  
• Above points means that there is a 20 meter “blind spot” for ECM from 180 meters to 200 where you can target a mech within the bubble and still have targeting data relayed to team mates.
  
• Invalidates Artimis for friendly mechs under ECM
  
• It takes twice as long to obtain missile lock against mechs under ECM (both stackable with other ECM’s and unaffected by counter ECM measures like PPC hits and TAG. Which allow you to target, but the ECM mech still benefits from increased targeting time.
  
• BAP passively counters it at 150 meters
  
• TAG counters it past 180 meters only if you are constantly hitting it with the beam (time is affected by multiple ECMs.)
  
• PPC hits provide a 5 second window for targeting only (countered by another ECM.)

CURRENT ECM ISSUES:

• Hard counters all LRM use, both directly and indirectly. Unless player takes equipment that is more than double the weight of the ECM they are attempting to counter. (Tag / Bap or Narc)
  
• LRMs without extra equipment are almost completely useless due to the threat of ECM.
  
• LRM’s on anything less than a Heavy undesirable due to the weight of equipment needed to deal with ECM.
  
• Information warfare perks are effective at all ranges at all times.
  
• 20 meter “blind spot” way too small for any mech to effectively use.
  
• Soft counters ineffective at providing a counter window long enough to be useful.

PROPOSED DIRECTION OF ECM DESIGN PILLARS:

• ECM should remain a crucial and game changing element for the information warfare aspect of MWO.
  
• ECM should still be effective at countering indirect fire LRM’s and any kind of play mechanic that involves data outside of a player’s physical line of sight.
  
• ECM dynamic should impact direct fire LRM play without invalidating it.
  
• ECM should have effective soft counters through COUNTER PLAY over hard counters through equipment stacking.

The full proposal can be viewed from the link I provided. But in regards to this thread, these are the issues that I see, and I've drafted some general Pillars to move forward on the matter. I guess feel free to provide feedback on these things to see if we can at least reach a consensus on the issues with ECM and the Pillars for what we feel ECM SHOULD look like in the game. (Keep it vague for now, if we can agree on the broad pillars, the specifics can be debated later.)

Edited by SpiralFace, 14 September 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[CharlieChap]

Basic premiss:- ECM effects sensors

In Megamek (and tabletop) there are 4 sensor modes:-

Mech radar (basically what we have got isn't it + C3 ?). Mech IR , Mech magscan (metal density detection) and Mech Seismic (implimented rather oddly with a module rather than a mode.)

Maybe another way of thinking about this would possibly be in terms of implimenting sensor modes (so that you could switch between them, not just as visual effects (Heat or IR) or just equipping a module.

Seismic works already without sharing information so the mechanics are already there. Some other modes of this probably would bypass ECM also ? ( magscan, as does seismic) but not allow 'C3' shared locks (again as does seismic...).

Currently two visual modes and a module + the map overview are used to represent sensors and its a bit of a clumsy way to represent this when all of these things are supposedly integrated and are part of the same thing. All would effect what is seen on the top down 'radar' whilst currently only seismic does this.

If all mechs had these and all were simply part of a sensor switching system it would clean stuff up into a simple sensor mode switching function and some of those modes (magscan & seismic certainly) should provide local counters to ECM (but not C3) sharing of that perhaps.

Would perhaps rationalize a rather messy system, temper ECM + is a cannon solution.

[M3 SABLE]

Just went from 100 to dead, on my DDC, against a single LRM Golden Boy with a TAG, on Alpine Peaks

Nerf ECM? You kidding right?


People will simply quit playing or start to create same number of threads like you do, yelling at PGI to nerf LRM.
I think i will go with the 1st option if that happens, because map design in regards to LRM encounters,is annoying at best.

Edited by Unikron, 14 September 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Great effort tying to categorize and nail down the issues regarding ECM, a great first step towards identifying and eventually fixing the issue.

A few notes from my POV:

• Detection is too binary, either totally locked or not. Would prefer a gradient of target lock strength based on range, equipment, modules, heat, size, and possibly quirks.
  
• Mechs could have a "signature" stat, and mechs with a stronger signature are easier to detect under ECM. (for example, a mech actively firing target-locked LRMs would be putting out it's own sensor signals directing the LRMs which would be more detectable, larger mechs would be more detectable, hotter mechs giving off more infrared, etc)
  
• With an overall weakening of ECM's protective bubble, ECM could add active functions such as "ghost signatures" leading to more information warfare gameplay
  
• New Modules to enhance various aspects of ECM and information warfare (ECM-positive modules such as range or protection, ECM-countering modules such as a module to enhance ability to correctly identify ghost signatures as false-positives
  
• Indirect LRMs would see increased effectiveness with a nerf to ECM, indirect LRMs could have more spread and longer/more complicated lock times.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 14 September 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Zyllos]

Unikron, on 14 September 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Just went from 100 to dead, on my DDC, against a single LRM Golden Boy with a TAG, on Alpine Peaks

Nerf ECM? You kidding right?


People will simply quit playing or start to create same number of threads like you do, yelling at PGI to nerf LRM.
I think i will go with the 1st option if that happens, because map design in regards to LRM encounters,is annoying at best.

With a change to GECM, LRMs will also change to match the new environment.

[Livewyr]

In a couple of days, I will go through and categorize the posts into various lines of thinking and approach them 1 by 1 with a new thread, and with other players trying to organize this.

[IceWeasel]

Redshift2k5, on 14 September 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

Great effort tying to categorize and nail down the issues regarding ECM, a great first step towards identifying and eventually fixing the issue.

A few notes from my POV:

• Detection is too binary, either totally locked or not. Would prefer a gradient of target lock strength based on range, equipment, modules, heat, size, and possibly quirks.

Redshift has nailed the core problem. As he buts it, it's very binary. I'd say a light switch. It's an all or nothing peice of equipment. some sort of "stepping" or linerar/expoential curve is required for the ECM. maybe more is better, maybe more is different maybe countering a team with multi ECM and LRM boats is done by composing a team of Brawlers and snipers, with a lower "signature to return."

[Scratx]

Ed Trend, on 14 September 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

Hello mates ,

I am non-pay player whom i excluively using a Cicada 3M the past 4 months at least and only in solo que/PUGland , and its the only mech i have in my mechbay atm . Thus , i would like to throw on the discussion table some thoughts from my experience for you to take under consideration.
A) For first , altho many players consider ecm as OP , i can tell you for a fact that in every single game , i am targeted by LRm'S . 4 out of 10 times i even die from em . So imho , its an "OK" equipment , rather than "OP" . Why is that?...well for first lets consider which mechs can carry an ecm . A version of commando , a version of a spider , a raven , a cicada and an Atlas . So , the crashing majority of the mechs that can actualy utilize ecm are below 40 tons with the exeption of the atlas . That practicaly means , that for those mechs , a hit of a full salvo of lrms form a boat , its death sentence....simple as that . And there are so many ways to counter the ecm (eccm , narc , uav , distance itself , etc), that those mech , rarely make it out of a fight alive . I know i dont .

...........................................

Dude, you're doing it wrong.

(bolded for emphasis to what I'm referring to)

Quote

B ) player stated many times that mounting an ecm requires no sacrifice . Thats incorrect . The ecm weights 1.5 tons , which its considerable for a mech of such a low tonage .

You can't be serious. I have a Cicada 3M too. With XL320, TAG, 2 Large Lasers and ECM. How is ECM a sacrifice there? Can't carry AMS? I don't really need AMS if I'm doing it right in a mech with the Magic Jesus Box. Sorry.

The Atlas is the only exception because it's an assault but OTOH an ECM in an assault mech is also another level of pain. It's a mobile team anchor.

Quote

C) ecm blocks only the weapons which they require a lock on .Thats lrms and streaks . For any other weapon , if the mech can see me , can hit me just fine . Under that perspective , even the advanced zoom module , its a great passive mean of detection and my ecm cant do jack against it .

Thank god for that. Eyeball Mk. I still trumps all.

Quote

D) ecm's range its rather limited . No matter how hard i try , i usualy manage to put only 1/3rd of my team under my umbrela most of the times. Even if the whole team concentrates in a single spot , the space that 12 mechs occupy , push some of em out of ecms range , even if i am standing in the middle of the formation .

Don't need to cover the entire team to have a disproportional effect.

Quote

E) distance is a crucial factor on countering the ecm . Even if you are an lrm boat , if you stay close to your team in the front lines (which many good players do) , you dont even need to have a tag installed . Cuz when the brawling dance begins , everyone is close enough to detect anyone so lock ons are rather easy to get . On the other hand , if you only want to stay like 1-2 blocks away from your base and just shoot missiles , then sorry but you ll have to suffer the conciquences of your choice.

I agree, the LRM'ers that like to hang back 800+m from the battle line are usually bad. But then, if they're getting locks from back there then either someone's taking risks to give them targets or odds are there's not much ECM around.

Quote

F) while tag and narc can negate a single ecm , a uav can cancel all of em.

Not quite cancel, but drops the magical sensor invisibility and immunity, yes. On the other hand, UAVs cost 40k cbills each and they can be shot down. Asking everyone to carry expensive consumables to counter a cheap piece of equipment is not really all that fair. (and someone needs to take the risk of getting close to the enemy group to deploy the UAV too)

Quote

G) other option to counter the lrm boating , are not existant atm. The ams is totaly inaquate as we all know and deprivation module needs 15k exp and 6mil cbils to install , which practicaly means that without a premium , a players needs 3-4 weeks of hard playing in order to get it.

Soft countering would be almost as good as hard countering without making it downright frustrating to deal with.

Quote

H) an ecm installed on an atlas is of little use . The mech itself is so big that can be detected visualy from across the map , and its speed too low to effectively keep up with rest of the team in order to provide stealth cover .

Actually, it's the other way around. An ECM on an Atlas works very well as an anchor to the main battle group. And once the team needs to push, the Atlas can be just fast enough to provide the cover necessary, thus freeing any ECM lights for scouting and assassinating LRM boats, as well as wreaking general havoc.

Quote

Like i said above , i am PUG cicada player . My mech is nothing but a compact table with 2 legs . This means that anything that hits me from above , hits one of the 3 parts of the xl engine . Now having that in mind , and take into consideration that PGI recently made IS lrms to hit in pinpoint manner instead of doing splashing dmg , you can understand that a single voley of lrms20's , with its curved trajectory , is enough to take me out . Clan lrms on the other hand , have no distance limitations , thus combined with a tag , can double as srms . I already lost duels with kitfoxes and stormcrows on that manner .

Individual LRMs are pin-point but they still spread damage around because they don't all hit the same component. Clan LRMs have only the lack of minimum range as an advantage, but they don't do full damage either. If you are engaging them under 100 meters they're doing way less than half damage by then.

If you're that close, though, beware active probes.

Quote

Also , i would like to mention here that many players cant understand that the mech is a complete vessel and not a mobile lrm turret . That means that one needs to invest not only on weapons , armor and engine only , but in electronics aswell . One also needs to understand the concept of "primary and secondary" weapons . You cant put 4 lrms20 on your mech and nothing else , or lrms 20 and large lasers and expect to be effective with that . If you do that , then yes , i ll sneak behind your teams front lines with my ecm , solo you out and kill you and you wont be able to do anything . That doesnt mean that my ecm is overpowered , it means , you havent installed anything to detect me , and no proper weapon to fight me off . Like i said before , most mechs that can carry an ecm are below 40 tons , which means that they cannot withstand fire from MPL's , PL's , srms , SL's , SPL ,s for too long , and for sure , if you fight back it wont insist on going toe to toe with something far bigger than itself . My point is....ok add the lrms you need , but also add some dps weapons for yourself defence , they are not useless you know.

Largely amen, brother. Though I'll point out mechs that light have the advantage of being able to hit ludicrous speeds that effectively make them much harder to kill than their actual armor indicates. It's not a joke the Cicada is generally bumped into the light mech category in play-style despite being a medium.

Quote

As for last but not least , the light class mechs participation in metches at the moment , is somewhere between 8-12% . The crashing majority of them are ecm versions cuz practicaly they are the only playable lights that one can get . Nerfing the ecm , will effectively kick the last of these lights out of the que .Cuz , lets face it....who would buy a mech that has no true perpose , can die from a single avarage alpha , while on the other hand it needs 30-40 secs of continues firing to get a kill due to its low firepower , unless it has at least an edge on something?

Unfortunately that's a problem because light mechs don't really have a role in PUGlandia. In groups they're useful because comms let them be used very effectively for scouting, but because the communication tools are... deficient in MWO in PUGlandia, they lose a lot of their value.

Now, if only lighter mechs were naturally harder to detect.....

Quote

@PGI
At the end , ppl complain about my ecm , i complain about their lrms , the other guy complains about IS balistics , and the guy next to him complains about ppc's , clan mech etc . We all consider the others "OP" . Whos right and whos wrong ?....have you ever considered the possibility that we are all both right and both wrong?...
My opinion is that the problems lays not on ecm , lrms , autocannos , ppc's , etc. It lays on the game itself . If i drop in a game that the other team has 3 ecms and 6 lrms boats , while my team has 1 ecm and mostly brawling weapons and lose badly , then i ll come to forums infurated screaming "nerf lrms" . On the other hand , if i am an lrm boat on a team full of lrms against a team full of ecms and speedy mech , i ll lose badly and start screaming "nerf ecm"...and so on and so on...
Can you fix the matchmaker to chose better than only tonnage and mech class?...imho...no you cant .Thats why WOT and WOA are dieing already . There are too many variables and when you balance something towards one direction , something else get unbalanced on another direction . Its like the sleeves on a sort shirt . You pull the left sleeve down , the right sleeve goes up .
What can you do about it ? . There is only one thing that can be done . Let the game balance itselfs . Drop the 12vs12 arena fps philosophy , and open the maps to as many players as possible . Seperate the community in 4 major nations (innersphere , clans , mercenaries , periphery) and let em balance themselfs through fighting and experience . Remove any limitations in weaponry , mechs , maps , strategies , numbers , anything....and let the nations balance each other . Create a system which can allow ppl just jump into a map and either defend of attack when a nation leader makes a call into arms , no matter if they are solo player , battalion members , clan members , etc .Unleash this games potentials...completely!...no restrictions at all .
And if after that , something needs to be changed (which i doubt) , well i am pretty sure it will be focused , certain and obvious , to you and to everyone else , so there will be no arguments.

Thats all i had to say , plz excuse my english , are not my native language

Thnx for your attention

And I don't think they're planning to rebuild the entire game from scratch just because ECM is OP (for 1.5t and 2 crits)... I think CryEngine would melt my PC if it had to deal with even just 64 mechs in a single map...

But yes, the matchmaker can only do so much and frankly, the fact that ECM makes such a big impact is evidence that it's out of kilter with the rest of the game.

The game before ECM turned up had LRMs, too. The complaints existed back then just as much as they still do. I don't think we can hold out from fixing ECM out of misguided fear that LRMs will be too powerful. If they do become too powerful with a nerfed ECM, they'll be toned back down.

[Snowseth]

Livewyr, on 14 September 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

In a couple of days, I will go through and categorize the posts into various lines of thinking and approach them 1 by 1 with a new thread, and with other players trying to organize this.

Please cross-post to any and all forums that you can.
I'm cross-posting this to Reddit /r/outreach and /r/mwo (yeah, I know).

[IceSerpent]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I totally disagree. You seem to be coming from an eSports perspective, where everything has to be "fair" and "equal". That's fine.

I, on the other hand, like uncertainty and the potential adversity that brings. If the players are good, they will be able to compensate for their equipment deficiencies with skill and teamwork.

I'm here to play "A BattleTech Game". "Fairness" and "equality" are the last things on my mind.

Mystere, you missed the part where I specifically mentioned random MM - you can't rely on teamwork in that environment, because there's a very good chance that there will be none. I would agree with your thoughts if we only had a group queue, but in PUG queue there's absolutely no guarantee what you gonna get in terms of equipment, skill, or teamwork. Heck, you can get a team of 12 players that don't even have a common language and whole teamwork concept goes out of the window.

It's really not so much about things being equal, but more about not having your weapons rendered completely useless just because of a "bad dice roll" in MM.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

There's no valid reason to need hard counters in a competitive game, and last I checked ECM worked a lot differently in every other Battletech game.

FYI.

[Aym]

A lot of good points I'd like to second.
LRM's only lock onto targets you can not see yourself with NARC, TAG, or UAV based locks.
ECM bubble should prevent LOS LRM locks forcing them to act as shared locks, IE NARC TAG UAV, only protect the ECM carrier.
ECM no longer disrupts enemy mechs ability to target mechs. Basically that squirrely raven that gets in the LRM group no longer shuts down the LRM group from supporting fire while remaining immune to counter fire due to it's ECM'ness. This is mollified by the next suggestion.
ECM set to "counter" no longer counters Enemy ECM (that's BAP's job anyway). Instead it disrupts enemy mechs targetting w/in it's bubble. So it's an either/or of the current benefits, it's a shroud while approaching and a disruptive weapon when brawling, but not both.

So there are the ideas I support w/in the extremely restrictive framework of slightly modifying ECM w/out really dragging other systems in (Except lock-sharing, which was the minimum I could conceive of bringing in to make any balanced changes).

[Ed Trend]

For first , i would like to ty mate for taking the time to read the whole of my post and respond point by point . I mostly agree with your thesis , but i ll just wanted to clarify some points of my post .

The reason that the only mech in my mechbay is the cicada 3m is cuz i believe that this mech is the best and most versatile mech in the game , incuding the clan mech with the exception of maybe the stormcrow . I elited many mechs , but i sold em all cuz none of em could combine the things i would like to have in a single vesel .So plz dont get me wrong , i am not complaining about anything , i was just trying to point out that ecm is fine but imho , not overpowered as equipment.

Scratx, on 14 September 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

...........................................

Dude, you're doing it wrong.

(bolded for emphasis to what I'm referring to)

---I dont think i do something wrong mate , i am just a front line player . I am always 200-250 meter ahead of my team , and almost always take the first shots . I scout , harass , create a mess , etc . So as you can understand , when i scout an enemy party , they see me back , and if there is a tag around or a narc , i am detected just fine and some times i even pay the prise of my audacity...ha!

http://www.mechspecs...hp?topic=7912.0

(thats the build i am using atm and i am satisfied)


You can't be serious. I have a Cicada 3M too. With XL320, TAG, 2 Large Lasers and ECM. How is ECM a sacrifice there? Can't carry AMS? I don't really need AMS if I'm doing it right in a mech with the Magic Jesus Box. Sorry.

----You missunderstood me mate . I never said one needs an ecm and ams at the same time . I just said that the ecm is not a module , thus it carries 1.5 tons of weight . So when installed , its an extra DHS or a weapon that i could have but i havent.

The Atlas is the only exception because it's an assault but OTOH an ECM in an assault mech is also another level of pain. It's a mobile team anchor.

----Its my impression that in solo que , Atlases are the most vanurable mechs and they can only survive if they are escort by mediums .....i might be wrong on this tho .



Thank god for that. Eyeball Mk. I still trumps all.



Don't need to cover the entire team to have a disproportional effect.

----Its my opinion that for something to be "OP" , needs to operate in extreme proportions , otherwise. its not something out of the ordinary or ubnormal . A team spread into 400 meters get under ecm effect only half of em or less , and with the flanks exposed to scouts it doesnt strike me as "dispropotional effect" . It could be like that tho , if the enemy team stays put and never moves or take any initiative , but thats rather rare in PUGland .



I agree, the LRM'ers that like to hang back 800+m from the battle line are usually bad. But then, if they're getting locks from back there then either someone's taking risks to give them targets or odds are there's not much ECM around.

----I totaly agree with you , but even then , missiles travel time allow for enemy mechs to take cover before the missiles hit em . Thats why usualy players complain about their missiles hit the ground or obstacles .



Not quite cancel, but drops the magical sensor invisibility and immunity, yes. On the other hand, UAVs cost 40k cbills each and they can be shot down. Asking everyone to carry expensive consumables to counter a cheap piece of equipment is not really all that fair. (and someone needs to take the risk of getting close to the enemy group to deploy the UAV too)

---Again i agree . Yet again while the ecm is a cheap piece of equipment , the alternatives are either useless (ams) or very expensive in both c-bills and mostly exp (6mil cbils and 15k exp for a deprivation module) . So imho fairness at this point , its rather a matter of perspective . What i am saying is that if we agree to nerf ecm a bit , then the alternatives would need to be boosted a bit aswell or lower their cost (deprivation module) . If we agree on that , then by all means , nerf the ecm . I would take a weightless module over a 1.5 ton equipment , any day .



Soft countering would be almost as good as hard countering without making it downright frustrating to deal with.

---Agreed



Actually, it's the other way around. An ECM on an Atlas works very well as an anchor to the main battle group. And once the team needs to push, the Atlas can be just fast enough to provide the cover necessary, thus freeing any ECM lights for scouting and assassinating LRM boats, as well as wreaking general havoc.

----Tbh , i never piloted an Atlas (too slow for my taste) . I only fought against it , and from that perspective , i was always able to detect it coming by using advanced zoom from ranges far beyond normal visual range . As for its ecm cover , yeah well from my experience , no PUG waits for a Atlas to catch up with the rest of the team . So unless a stealmate occurs somewhere in the middle of the map , Atlases assist in that matter is of limited use . Yet again , i wont insist on that further cuz i dont want to insult Atlas pilots .



Individual LRMs are pin-point but they still spread damage around because they don't all hit the same component. Clan LRMs have only the lack of minimum range as an advantage, but they don't do full damage either. If you are engaging them under 100 meters they're doing way less than half damage by then.

If you're that close, though, beware active probes.

----I agree again with your points , but you need to understand that the cicada is nothing but a "case" which holds the engine and the weapons . The only extra "protection" it has , is its side shields . So a hit from above will almost always hit 1 of the 3 parts of the engine , bypassing the shields (i am not calling em hands , cuz they are no hands..ha). Clan lrms , yes they dont do full dmg , but they still add to the overall dmg coming from your enemy even in very sort ranges .



Largely amen, brother. Though I'll point out mechs that light have the advantage of being able to hit ludicrous speeds that effectively make them much harder to kill than their actual armor indicates. It's not a joke the Cicada is generally bumped into the light mech category in play-style despite being a medium.

----Clan mechs of any class , due to their longer burn of their weapons , they can adjust their aiming will burning duration , and their balistics with the burst way of firing , they only need to fire to the general direction of the target and something will hit . Granded , dmg wont be more than 15-20% of weapons full capacity , but still , 15-20% of "huge" its still alot for a light mech to compensate.
As for the cicada , i personaly not consider it a "light" . I build it and use it as a pure medium with decent firepower , all armor infront and a bit lesser speed (124kph with tweak) . The relative success of kitfox and adder (which they are mostly used as mediums rather than lights) and the big success of the stormcrow , shown me that extreme speeds (142-151kph) are unecessary for a medium even as light as the cicada . A good aim-er that can hit you running with 124kph , can hit you running with 142-151kph aswell . The one whom cannot , well , he cannot no matter your speed . So i dont find extreem speed as much as an advandage as other ppl do.Yet again thats only mho and nothing more .



Unfortunately that's a problem because light mechs don't really have a role in PUGlandia. In groups they're useful because comms let them be used very effectively for scouting, but because the communication tools are... deficient in MWO in PUGlandia, they lose a lot of their value.

Now, if only lighter mechs were naturally harder to detect.....

----Indeed



And I don't think they're planning to rebuild the entire game from scratch just because ECM is OP (for 1.5t and 2 crits)... I think CryEngine would melt my PC if it had to deal with even just 64 mechs in a single map...

But yes, the matchmaker can only do so much and frankly, the fact that ECM makes such a big impact is evidence that it's out of kilter with the rest of the game.

The game before ECM turned up had LRMs, too. The complaints existed back then just as much as they still do. I don't think we can hold out from fixing ECM out of misguided fear that LRMs will be too powerful. If they do become too powerful with a nerfed ECM, they'll be toned back down.

----I ve been in games where there were 2-6 nation and much more complicated players interactivity . Airrivals is one of em , Galaxy online was another , and both games are 10 years old . So its nothing that hasnt be done before . Ofc you are right , with the game being as it is now , no pc could handle something like that . Mostly cuz of its graphic heavy capability . Yet again , like us old-farts used to say back in time , "playing a game for its graphics , its like watching porn for its senario" .
On the other hand , if PGI remain in this path of an arena based game , no matter how hard gonna try to keep their player base , its destined to lose it in a couple of years . For how long players will just frop in a map just to shoot someone else , without any true perpose ashide their own KDR . One year , two years more maybe ?...this player base remained loyal to this game mostly waiting for the CW to come . As you can understand , if this CW wont be something realy spectacular , there will be much dispointment all around . And when this will occur , no new maps , mechs , promises or anything will be able to keep ppl from leaving . I saw this happening in many other occations . I saw games begun with 3-4 servers at full capacity , going down to a single merged server , with only 10% capacity withing less than a year .
At the bottom line , this franchise has so much depth , that only to read the sarna.nets pages would take someones days if not weeks to go through all of em . And yet , MWO , ashide the graphics , is nothing but an evolved Solaris arena . Personaly , when i joined up some like 6-7 months ago , i expected to find so much more in MWO . What exists now , it wont keep me intrested for too long . I believe that i am not the only one whom has such considerations . And thats the true reason why i see all these posts about balncing rthis , balancing that...so...trivial and "small" . Imho , the game has far bigger and far more serious issues .

Again , tyvm for a realy nice conversation

Edited by Ed Trend, 15 September 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[Garandos]

Well here are my thoughts on the matter, allthought i am kinda clueless and can comment more on a "feel" base then solid facts.

Problems i "see" with ECM:

1. ECM does not come with any drawbacks.

Explanation: Equiping ECM does not really "Tax" the Mech which is equiping it in any way/shape or form,
the ECM module is not really weighting anything, so the Mech using it, does not has to really cut down on something else.

This is partialy balanced in the Tabletop game, by the Battlevalue and the fact, that most mechs are "WYSIWYG"
and the "drawback" ist build into the machines with ECM.

2. It provides a Force multiplier to the Team which has it, as, in PUG games, it suddenly allows plays to suceed which else, would utterly fail.

Example: People in long range shootouts, which are how most games start, can leave cover far longer and with far more safety against retaliation fire,
because a whole weapon system for Long range (LRMs) are out of the window, if the other team does not have ECM, it suffers for it, in terms
of flexibility and safety for plays.

Given that many people, which play in PUGs, are not the best at aiming, getting an easy 2-3 seconds more to take your Aim, makes a hughe difference.

3. It allows for a good direct fire defence aswell.

Example: Given the end of my statement on Point 2, ECM takes away the "Shoot here for $$" Signs above the heads of the targets, and does not allow the
attacker, to judge his Shoots by the Red box arround the target on long range.

Personally, i had my highest scoring games in an KFX-S with ECM 2 Large lasers, which just stood about 1K out and sniped the enemy team,
retaliation fire, if any, usualy either fell short, or missed, even without much movement on my side.

Doing the same thing, without ECM, got me wrecked rather fast.

So in short:

ECM problems, and what i feel are the major points:

Force muliplier without drawback.

Edited by Garandos, 15 September 2014 - 01:52 AM.

[Ed Trend]

@Garandos

Mate , i dont mean to insult you or anything , but while you say that you own a kitfox with ecm , you also stated that ecm is a module . Ecm is not a module , its a 2 slot , 1.5 ton equipment . Altho thats not of a drawback , it still occupies slots and weights as much a ML+SL combined .
As for everything else , like i said in my previous post , the crashing majority of the mechs that can mount an ecm are 40 tons and below with the exception of Atlas assault mech . And for those tiny lil mechs , which they are underarmored , ecm is a life saver . As for you be able to snipe from great distances and never get hit back , its cuz of other reason rather than the ecm you installed . Clan weaps even now that got nerfed , they still have greater range than IS weaps . So make no mistake , ecm never made you invisible . Ppl could see you , but they couldnt reach you , and even lrms at 1k meters distance that you mentioned , would be at the edge or their range . They probably wouldnt hit you even if they could lock on you.

[Garandos]

Ed Trend, on 15 September 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

@Garandos

Mate , i dont mean to insult you or anything , but while you say that you own a kitfox with ecm , you also stated that ecm is a module . Ecm is not a module , its a 2 slot , 1.5 ton equipment . Altho thats not of a drawback , it still occupies slots and weights as much a ML+SL combined .
As for everything else , like i said in my previous post , the crashing majority of the mechs that can mount an ecm are 40 tons and below with the exception of Atlas assault mech . And for those tiny lil mechs , which they are underarmored , ecm is a life saver . As for you be able to snipe from great distances and never get hit back , its cuz of other reason rather than the ecm you installed . Clan weaps even now that got nerfed , they still have greater range than IS weaps . So make no mistake , ecm never made you invisible . Ppl could see you , but they couldnt reach you , and even lrms at 1k meters distance that you mentioned , would be at the edge or their range . They probably wouldnt hit you even if they could lock on you.

Dont feel insulted, i just used "module" here, because its not a weapon, maybe "gear" would have been the better wording?

And yes, it does weight as much as ML and SL combined, but no ECM mech would miss the weight.

Its kinda a no brainer, like DHS, you get a working build for all ranges, with enough firepower to be an usefull asset in that regard all the while you get the benefit of ECM.

Would be different, if you had to cut back on weapons and for ex. would be restricted to medium to short range weps while using ECM, in this case, you could provide either

the force multiplier to your entire team OR your firepower, as you would have to get closer then the long range weapons of your team, to do damage.