72 replies to this topic

[Darwins Dog]

I find that ECM doesn't bother me, but I think that's because I've adapted to it. Also I remember the days when it was even more powerful and had fewer counters. I tend to agree that it is necessary to keep indirect fired LRMs in check, and I like both the "stealth" capabilities and information denial that it provides. The counters that are out there are also quite useful on their own, so I never feel like I am taking something that only works to counter ECM.

FDJustin, on 13 September 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

While powerful, ECM capable mechs are all given lower performance than their counterparts. Less positive quirks, weaker weapon loadouts, less module slots, that sort of thing. You give up more than just 1.5 tons to take it.

I have to disagree with you there. Most of them can take fewer modules, but they are usually just as good or better than their counterparts. The only one that is noticeably inferior is the commando, due to speed. The spider is slower, but makes up for it with weapon hardpoints. The Raven is faster, and has arguably better weapon options. The cicada has noticeably less maneuverability, but it can still out perform most mechs. The atlas only trades hardpoints (2E in the CT for 1M). Then there's teh Kit Fox which just has to take a different arm and keep the rest of the build.

[-Natural Selection-]

I do not believe the current ECM mechs is fine, however nor do I think the current LRM/SSRM locking mechs works eithers. The main reason I believe ECM has to be as it is, is due to the fact of how LRM locking is freely passed via team mates.

IMO you are not going to be able to fix just the one, which I outlined roughly in the suggestions area.

[Nightmare1]

Frankly, I think that ECM, in it's current form, is A-OK. It seems to function well without being overpowered. The biggest drawback to it, is that there aren't very many Mechs that can run it. For me, I would like to see additional Mechs with ECM added to this game.

For example, I think that the Hero TDR should be an ECM variant...

Overall, if the community and the devs decide to tweak ECM to make it more interesting or useful, then I think that's fine. However, I do not believe it requires any nerfs. The current advantages of TAG, UAV, and NARC provide enough countermeasures for LRM boats that they do not need ECM Mechs to get nerfed.

Just F.Y.I.: I do own and operate a dedicated LRM boat along with four other Mechs that pack LRM launchers. ECM, while problematic, can be rendered harmless with any of the aforementioned countermeasures. If anything, ECM might need a slight buff, actually, in the solo queues. This would potentially break it in the group queues though.

[FDJustin]

Darwins Dog, on 13 September 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

I have to disagree with you there. Most of them can take fewer modules, but they are usually just as good or better than their counterparts. The only one that is noticeably inferior is the commando, due to speed. The spider is slower, but makes up for it with weapon hardpoints. The Raven is faster, and has arguably better weapon options. The cicada has noticeably less maneuverability, but it can still out perform most mechs. The atlas only trades hardpoints (2E in the CT for 1M). Then there's teh Kit Fox which just has to take a different arm and keep the rest of the build.

The Raven is a bit of an outlier there with it's bigger engine. Even so, it lacks the positive traits the other Raven's have... The Cicada actually takes a penalty when it's brethren have bonuses. Fatlas pilots cried a river at the loss of a module slot for their DDC, and it's obvious that's taken in exchange for ECM.

Don't have much to say on the kitfox though, other than having it in the arm makes it a more vulnerable position than the other ECM equipped mechs.

Edited by FDJustin, 13 September 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[Postumus]

Weaker ECM would be fine IF the LRM indirect fire mechanics were changed. To clarify:

Weaker ECM - Instead of total sensor blackout, have percent reductions in lock time, missile accuracy, target info gathering etc. Make it harder, but not impossible to target ECM covered mechs compared to non-ECM covered mechs. A dorrito-less lock system would be the best way to go here.

LRM Changes - No indirect fire without TAG or NARC lock. This sounds extreme, but if LRM equipped mechs can target ECM covered mechs for direct fire, its really more of a trade-off than a nerf. It pushes LRM-using mechs to get into the action more, requiring more exposure in order to get the damage, except when closely coordinating with TAG/NARC equipped scout mechs. If you want to rain down LRMs on the enemy from cover, then you will have to put one of your light mechs in danger to spot.

This would probably also cut down on LRM boating, because if LRM using mechs have to get LOS most of the time to do damage, they are going to either need to defend themselves more, or it will make sense to augment their LRMs with longer range direct fire weapons.

This also engages light mechs more, since they become essential to indirect fire support, and countering the enemy's ability to provide indirect fire support by attacking THEIR light mechs.

Edited by Postumus, 13 September 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[Odins Fist]

FACEPALM

[topgun505]

ECM is not fine. But it counters the current LRM mechanics which were implemented in a piss poor fashion. You can't fix one unless you fix the other.

[kapusta11]

Silly counter to silly weapon, fix the latter first, then the former.

[TopDawg]

KingCobra, on 13 September 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

ECM is fine there are 100 more important things to deal with in MWO to make it survive as a viable game like MAPS or even MORE GAME MODES or bug fixes.I just cant believe the players that are pushing for a ECM fix instead of the important things needed in this game.And PGI is like sure fellas let us delay important content just so we can fix a ECM problem that is a minor irritation to a few groups and is relatively a mute point in SOLO mm game drops.

If I were PGI I would completely ignore all this ECM folly and continue to produce relevant content to pacify the players they still have before they leave the sinking ship.

Actually just for clarification, it was Russ that kind of pitched this to the community to try and tackle; and isn't supposed to be interfering with CW rollout at all as far as I know.

Just wanted to clarify so that you and others were aware so that you in turn would be able to make others aware with similar points, thanks!

[Robin Wolf]

ECM is fine because it's not even close to its first implementation.

[Devilsfury]

Postumus, on 13 September 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Weaker ECM would be fine IF the LRM indirect fire mechanics were changed. To clarify:

Weaker ECM - Instead of total sensor blackout, have percent reductions in lock time, missile accuracy, target info gathering etc. Make it harder, but not impossible to target ECM covered mechs compared to non-ECM covered mechs. A dorrito-less lock system would be the best way to go here.

LRM Changes - No indirect fire without TAG or NARC lock. This sounds extreme, but if LRM equipped mechs can target ECM covered mechs for direct fire, its really more of a trade-off than a nerf. It pushes LRM-using mechs to get into the action more, requiring more exposure in order to get the damage, except when closely coordinating with TAG/NARC equipped scout mechs. If you want to rain down LRMs on the enemy from cover, then you will have to put one of your light mechs in danger to spot.

This would probably also cut down on LRM boating, because if LRM using mechs have to get LOS most of the time to do damage, they are going to either need to defend themselves more, or it will make sense to augment their LRMs with longer range direct fire weapons.

This also engages light mechs more, since they become essential to indirect fire support, and countering the enemy's ability to provide indirect fire support by attacking THEIR light mechs.

Exactly! Having some guy that is just looking at you and then having 100000000 missles hit you from 1000m is just stupid. LOS, TAG, NARC should be the only way to lockon to an enemy. When that is fixed, then work on ECM fixes.

[Cavendish]

ECM is fine for the situation as it is now.

If we were to re-design the entire sensor system and missile system, however, I would have a diffrerent position on this item.

[L Y N X]

ECM is POWERFUL, I admit it is the most powerful technology in the game.

I think it is acceptable as is, because it is available to both sides. (MM could be improved to act upon this fact.)

Furthermore, ECM has a fair number of counters, which means players have things to learn, ie. knowledge and skills.

Edited by 7ynx, 13 September 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I will support a fundamental change IF and ONLY IF there is a fundamental change to LRM direct/indirect behavior.

LRM changes:
-velocity buff
- indirect only if TAG/NARC used
-NARC time nerfed

[Fut]

Ultimatum X, on 13 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

ECM is the only piece of equipment in the game that pretty much allows you to deny any information to the enemy.

Dracol, on 13 September 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Personally, ECM's ability to disrupt and its ability to nullify radar sig should be separated into exclusive functions, if not separate equipment.

ECM's abilities are great, and I think they're very important to the game.
The fact that it's an all for one piece of equipment is what wrecks it.

Devilsfury, on 13 September 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

Exactly! Having some guy that is just looking at you and then having 100000000 missles hit you from 1000m is just stupid.

Nothing like crazy exaggerations to try and drive the point home, eh?

Edited by Fut, 13 September 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Ultimax]

Fut, on 13 September 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

ECM's abilities are great, and I think they're very important to the game.
The fact that it's an all for one piece of equipment is what wrecks it.

I was going to answer you here, but it will just be lost.

I'll put up a quick post on this train of thought.

[Monkey Lover]

I would love for everyone to have an ecm. Maybe it would make camo worth buying. Make lrms only work with tag and narc. Then do a smqll buff to lrms.

[Quxudica]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I am interested to know why you think that way.

(This is not a place to openly disagree with someone.. I am hoping to just gather why they think that way, in order to either change my mind, or mold my argument to change theirs.)

I will not be voicing disagreements with arguments, that is not the purpose of this. Please refrain from doing so, as well.

ECM doesn't seem like an issue to me and I don't even use one, only mech I own that has it installed is a DDC that is collecting dust.

I'd much much rather see a redesign of how LRMs function. Imo they should require NARC or TAG to allow indirect fire, otherwise the LRM mech itself should have to have and hold LoS to use them.

[Mcgral18]

Quxudica, on 13 September 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

ECM doesn't seem like an issue to me and I don't even use one, only mech I own that has it installed is a DDC that is collecting dust.

I'd much much rather see a redesign of how LRMs function. Imo they should require NARC or TAG to allow indirect fire, otherwise the LRM mech itself should have to have and hold LoS to use them.

With a hefty buff to direct fire, of course.

[Mystere]

Mordin Ashe, on 13 September 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

If I ignore the fact that ECM is on/off switch for 1/4 of the game (information warfare) and turns off many weapon systems, I may say that ECM is an interesting feature.

ECM turns off only 2 weapons systems, LRMs and SSRMs.