83 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

OH NO! It's NEVER that the weapon may be OP, it's that EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET is doing something wrong...

I would just like to take this moment to point out, that nearly everyone in this thread has disagreed with you.


This is when you should ask yourself, perhaps the weapon is not in fact OP and it is actually me?


We are not claiming that "everyone else" on the planet is doing it wrong....

[MischiefSC]

Sometimes just for a change I'll run 2xUAC5s and 4xCERMLs plus a TC3 and a ton of ammo on my Timby. It can be a riot; puts up a lot of damage when I win. That's good.

Sometimes I'll run a 2xLB5X 4xCERML 1xCERLL (cuz PGI hates LB5X and has no modules nor benefit from TC for them) when I get too sick of my UAC5s jamming.

They're flat out inferior to either a solid laservomit build or a 4xSRM6A+4xCERML build, or even a 1xGauss, 1xERPPC, 3xCERML build. They just are and I know that. They're fine for pugging but you don't bring them to group queue if you're trying to pull your full weight.

I even run a 3xCLRM15A, 1x NARC, TAG, 4xCERML build that does better. Nasty LRM brawler and there's just something glorious about NARCing people with a Timby; they never look for it or expect it. They waltz around the corner to trade some shots and come out of it realizing their day is ruined.

Never not funny.

[Osric Lancaster]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Good way to nerf clan mechs more as they have to hold their aim on target and enjoy your AC20 builds that would essentially be unaffected.

I'm not trying to exclude any ballistic weapon, PPCs included. For IS 'Mechs you'd have to make the deflection angle greater and apply to the first shot. Or make them slower to focus, or make it so they must fire asynchronously somehow? I just don't like instant pinpoint convergence for anything, it's garbage.

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

The last thing the game needs is essentially infinite ammo. . . . My quad ASRM 6 boats almost never run out or only right at the death of a match.

All that proves is that you're already equipping just enough ammo to get you through a match, so ammo is already essentially 'unlimited'. You'd do that if ammo was more per ton or less so long as it was still worth the weight. The 2x TT ammo per ton is meant to match the doubled armor so canon builds would be more viable and ammo weapons more useful in light 'Mechs that can't spare that extra weight.

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Impulse outside the DWF is about all that clan AC's have going for them.

I'd rather they had something else going for them. Shorter burst duration definitely. I'm just not a fan of screen shake. Besides, we already have flamers for 'annoying obscuration' hilarity.

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Ghost heat (tragically) is all that keeps this game sane... sorry but 6 PPC stalkers etc were NOT good for the game.

Which is why I said "viable alternative" and not "remove with wild abandon". Besides, a huge part of the 6PPC stalker issue was/is that instant convergence issue in point one.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 13 September 2014 - 11:42 PM.

[Remarius]

Dimento at the moment either you sound like the worst Atlas pilot ever or a bad troll.

How long does it take you to twist and snap fire an AC20/SRM/PPC volley?

If you're soloing in an Atlas vs a Direwolf yes you deserve to lose as its designed to kill you. Your job is to be the biggest scariest motherf**cker on the IS side and attract attention while everyone ELSE is free to nail the people shooting you. I've seen Atlas pilots weather the most hideous fire while we ***** the people going for them.

Edit: what on earth did it think I put at the end of that sentence... wish I could remember.

Edited by Remarius, 13 September 2014 - 11:48 PM.

[Alex Warden]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Just thinking it's odd that a 'mech can seemingly endlessly put out a DPS rate that can chew through Atlas's fully armored torso in less than 30 seconds.

That a clan 'mech with 4 or more AC's, with 'supposed' spread can out damage a quad gauss carrier, with pinpoint damage.

Either AC's are broke, or Atlas armor and gauss are broken.

i can assure you that this is not the case... or better, that this MIGHT be the case if A: the Atlas stands still and B: the AC´s don´t jam (you need an ultra for a "seemingly endless " stream) ... IF both in combination happen, the Atlas might be in a bad situation, but that´s true for him being shot at with ANY 4+ heavy weapons... if he moves, turns and best of all is partial cover or further away, it´s unevenly harder to bring the damage of clan ac´s to the "point of interest"...

and i really doubt that you can outgun 4 pinpoint weapons like gauss and ppc´s ... if the mentioned "gauss carrier" has "just" 1 gauss, maybe... but a double gauss + ppc or some of those pinpointers should outperform most UAC mechs on clan side...

but ...to add to this: the ac´s are okay with their burst mechanic... what is really problematic ( and i told so long before the packeges were even in the game) that the LOADOUTS in general for many clanmechs are simply too powerful to be really balanced...

luckily we have some bad examples in the game currently, with only the Timber, Dire and Stormcrow being decent gun platforms... but wait until there are more Omnis coming... or more Pods for the others

tl,dr: it´s the sheer ammount of guns a clanmech can carry, and movement helps ALOT dealing with the dps style clan ac´s

Edited by Alex Warden, 13 September 2014 - 11:50 PM.

[Remarius]

Osric Lancaster, on 13 September 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

All that proves is that you're already equipping just enough ammo to get you through a match, so ammo is already essentially 'unlimited'. You'd do that if ammo was more per ton or less so long as it was still worth the weight. The 2x TT ammo per ton is meant to match the doubled armor so canon builds would be more viable and ammo weapons more useful in light 'Mechs that can't spare that extra weight.

I'd rather they had something else going for them. Shorter burst duration definitely. I'm just not a fan of screen shake. Besides, we already have flamers for 'annoying obscuration' hilarity.

I believe that was my point - you tailor your ammo to your usage - doubling it just means more space for weaponry, heat sinks or AMS. Something I just don't feel would benefit the game. Besides less tonnage of ammo also equals less vulnerability to ammo explosions. Currently we have to make hard choices and i personally like it that way.

I have a great affection for blinding people with flamers I'll have you know.

[Dimento Graven]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

Dimento at the moment either you sound like the worst Atlas pilot ever or a bad troll.

How long does it take you to twist and snap fire an AC20/SRM/PPC 6 volley?

If you're soloing in an Atlas vs a Direwolf yes you deserve to lose as its designed to kill you. Your job is to be the biggest scariest motherf**cker on the IS side and attract attention while everyone ELSE is free to nail the people shooting you. I've seen Atlas pilots weather the most hideous fire while we ***** the people going for them.

I don't pilot Atlas's anymore, haven't for some time now, but I do use them as portable walls for my dual gauss Jaeger or one of my own Direwolves of some gauss wielding variety.

And the only 'mech I've regularly witnessed weathering withering fire like you're describing is the Spider.

Sure, sure the Atlas can torso twist and turn, but only so far, so what has to happen? The Atlas (or ANY 'mech) has to twist back the other direction, trying to find cover to break the LOS of the offending 'mech, thus turning the already damaged portions of his 'mech to the shooter, again trying to find cover with cockpit shake and blinding explosions, and the crappy little mini map hoping he's going to back into, or turn behind a building/wall/rock that blocks the view of the bullet hose.

Most times they come away with open spots, so that the next time the bullet hose catches a glimpse, something gets crit'd. God forbid they're running an XL.

The AC's aren't spreading enough to balance the rate of fire and accuracy of the weapon against most other weapons.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 September 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[Remarius]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Just thinking it's odd that a 'mech can seemingly endlessly put out a DPS rate that can chew through Atlas's fully armored torso in less than 30 seconds.

That a clan 'mech with 4 or more AC's, with 'supposed' spread can out damage a quad gauss carrier, with pinpoint damage.

Either AC's are broke, or Atlas armor and gauss are broken.

Ok you're trolling I get it now.

But ultimately his defence is YOU killing the people shooting him. If he lasted 30 seconds under fire and you lot didn't kill his attackers in that time that's not really his fault.

If I was him I'd be really pissed off at you.

Edited by Remarius, 13 September 2014 - 11:55 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

Ok you're trolling I get it now.

When the responses started getting insulting, I decided I'd better get serious on this.

If this was how people were going to defend it, maybe there was something to it after all...

[Remarius]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

When the responses started getting insulting, I decided I'd better get serious on this.

If this was how people were going to defend it, maybe there was something to it after all...

Yup I pressed post by accident and was editing mine while you were editing yours.

Still doesn't get past that you're painting yourself in a bad light whether you think you have a valid point or not.

[Osric Lancaster]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

stuff

I'm not gonna change your mind on the ammo thing huh? Well, you share my love of blinding people with flamers so I'll let it go.
o7

[Remarius]

Osric Lancaster, on 13 September 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

I'm not gonna change your mind on the ammo thing huh? Well, you share my love of blinding people with flamers so I'll let it go.
o7

I'm open to the argument tbh I just think it would make ballistics and SRM's/LRM's even more powerful. Why do you think its needed out of interest?

Edited by Remarius, 14 September 2014 - 12:00 AM.

[General Merk]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

I don't pilot Atlas's anymore, haven't for some time now, but I do use them as portable walls for my dual gauss Jaeger or one of my own Direwolves of some gauss wielding variety.

And the only 'mech I've regularly witnessed weathering withering fire like you're describing is the Spider.

Sure, sure the Atlas can torso twist and turn, but only so far, so what has to happen? The Atlas (or ANY 'mech) has to twist back the other direction, trying to find cover to break the LOS of the offending 'mech, thus turning the already damaged portions of his 'mech to the shooter, again trying to find cover with cockpit shake and blinding explosions, and the crappy little mini map hoping he's going to back into, or turn behind a building/wall/rock that blocks the view of the bullet hose.

Most times they come away with open spots, so that the next time the bullet hose catches a glimpse, something gets crit'd. God forbid they're running an XL.

The AC's aren't spreading enough to balance the rate of fire and accuracy of the weapon against most other weapons.

Bolded the good parts. If an Atlas is ever running an XL it deserves to die in the most hideous of fires. Coming from a man who has piloted Atlases since beta I know my way around a 100t monster. I also own the clan packs and run DWFs frequently. I can tell you this, when I run my DDC if I see a clan mech running CUACs I generally laugh them off as a non-issue because with the STD355 that every Atlas D-DC should be running I can twist that stream of fire into an ineffective tickle. The only clan mechs that are a threat to my Atlas engage and kill it at range. The Deathstar Dire Wolf being one of them, the laser vomit TBR is the other. Nither of those very effective builds have a single CUAC on them. Not a one.

E: Apparently I cant bold in a quote. Atlases don't run XLs ever.

Edited by General Merk, 14 September 2014 - 12:04 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Still doesn't get past that you're painting yourself in a bad light whether you think you have a valid point or not.

I doubt you're any more worried about what the jackasses on this forum think of you than I am.

Oh no's! SOMEONE ON DA INTERWEBS DON LIKE MEZ!!!

<giggle>

[Kyzar Kon]

My only gripe is the level of constant shake.

I love it when I'm In an assault and pop a corner to find a direwhale waiting.....

"OH F*** I'm BLIND! "

"SH*T Where was that corner again....sooooo dizzy....."

XP

[IraqiWalker]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

OH NO! It's NEVER that the weapon may be OP, it's that EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET is doing something wrong...

You are doing something wrong, when everyone else, and their mom is saying so.

So yes. The OP in this case is definitely wrong/doing something wrong, and I know I sound arrogant, or condescending, possibly both when I say this, but he should be moving his mech around, instead of walking out in the open, or standing still.

For the record, standing still is probably the only time where a C-UAC can be a proper dangerous threat. Any other time, you are bound to dodge/ spread plenty of the shots, so long as you are not moving in a straight line towards, or away from the offending mech. If you are, then IS ACs will cream you about twice/thrice as fast anyways.

[Remarius]

Dimento Graven, on 14 September 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

I doubt you're any more worried about what the jackasses on this forum think of you than I am.

Oh no's! SOMEONE ON DA INTERWEBS DON LIKE MEZ!!!

<giggle>

I think you misunderstand - I don't hate you, you're a total irrelevance to me, I just don't want a new player to read your posts and get misled.

IraqiWalker, on 14 September 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

You are doing something wrong, when everyone else, and their mom is saying so.

So yes. The OP in this case is definitely wrong/doing something wrong, and I know I sound arrogant, or condescending, possibly both when I say this, but he should be moving his mech around, instead of walking out in the open, or standing still.

For the record, standing still is probably the only time where a C-UAC can be a proper dangerous threat. Any other time, you are bound to dodge/ spread plenty of the shots, so long as you are not moving in a straight line towards, or away from the offending mech. If you are, then IS ACs will cream you about twice/thrice as fast anyways.

Oi that wasn't me Iraqi.

[Osric Lancaster]

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

I'm open to the argument tbh I just think it would make ballistics and SRM's/LRM's even more powerful. Why do you think its needed out of interest?

Remarius, on 13 September 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

I'm open to the argument tbh I just think it would make ballistics and SRM's/LRM's even more powerful. Why do you think its needed out of interest?

Eh, I mostly stated my reasons.

1 - Canon builds have no staying power.
2 - Light and medium 'Mechs especially suffer from the excessive weight of ammo.
3 - Ammo increases from canon values are a weirdly asymmetrical and harsher on the some of the already heavy ballistics and light brawler weapons;

LRMs get 1.5xTT, AC/20s get 1.4xTT, Gauss gets 1.25xTT (ammo doesn't explode), SRMs get 1xTT

Boating is an issue with the unrestricted hard points system in MWO and the lack of convergence delay. To try and fix that by forcing people to waste extra tonnage and critical space on ammo isn't going to hurt heavy 'Mechs where boating's actually an issue though. A LRMaster or Madcat is going to be able to afford that. For an SRM commando or locust though you'll end up carrying half again you're weapon weight in ammo if you want to keep fighting the entire match. I'd gladly take a higher chance of ammo explosion or lowered weapon re-fire rates over that.

[MischiefSC]

The burn time on a UAC5 is about 1.0. It's 3 projectiles each doing 1.67 damage, so it hits for a total of 5 damage.

This means that 4 UAC5s are literally going to hit you and spread damage like...

4 MLs. Which, apparently, you consider way too powerful?

The advantage of the UAC5s is that you can double-tap them, which means that at the end of that 1 second burn of 5 points you can immediately fire a second shot. This means that over 2 seconds it's like...

Getting shot by 4 medium lasers, twice in a row, over 2 seconds.

Let me help you a bit more -

That's 20 points of damage spread over 2 seconds. So with a perfectly timed and perfectly successful double-tap the UAC build you're takling about is about like a Swayback hunchie shooting you with his lasers in 2 groups of 4, one right after the other.

Only without hitscan accuracyand with some of the lasers periodically jamming.

For which you pay 7 times the weight, plus two tons of ammo each gun so 9 tons each instead of 1 and a lot more spaces.

I've walked around a corner into a Dire Wolf and got my face melted before, I wasn't expecting it and got blinded and disoriented by the spray of dakka and got chewed. Mostly though you just pivot a bit, spread it around and back up. I killed several of them today in my D-DC. I see people do it all the time. you swing, WHAM, swing, WHAM. They'll start to pile up the jams and that stream of fire turns into a trickle just as you're getting to the chewy center.

Deathstar builds are another matter. Be that Gauss and ERPPCs or the often even more dangerous Gauss and massed CERML builds. You'll see the lasers and think 'Crap, gotta twist so I can...'
Then you take the 30pt pinpoint alpha on the armor those lasers were opening up and everyone gets to see what sort of sexy internal structure you were wearing under all that fashionable armor.

[Pat Kell]

Must be a lot of people doing things wrong out there then because I regularly do over 700 damage with a uac dire wolf build...it is easier to spread the damage by torso twisting but when they are doing that, they aren't shooting back at me or my friends. Not saying that it's OP at all as the easiest way to deal with the whales is to send in fast movers to pick at it or hill hump but good pilots will put themselves in positions where it's not possible to do that too them very easily.