132 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

That's not the issue. The issue is that there should not be hard counters against a whole weapon class. 1.5 ton equipment cockblocking 20-30 tons worth of weapons on multiple mechs is ridiculous.

So, instead of using discrete values, make missile lock-on times in the presence of ECM follow an exponential equation based on distance to target.

Do the same for BAP, TAG, and UAV effectiveness.

Heck, do the same for LRM lock-on times in the absence of ECM.

[stjobe]

Unikron, on 14 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

It can totally ignore the terrain, deal extreme damage, and allows you to remain safe in your position (unlike mechs that have to risk and peek out to deal damage)

PPC actually takes a lot of effort to be succesfful with, El Bandito, and it generates a lot of heat. Especially after nerf

I don't know about you, but my LRMs have roughly a 25% accuracy, as compared to roughly 50% for my PPCs.

This means a salvo from a LRM-20 does only 5.5 damage on average, as compared to 5 for the 3 ton lighter, ammo-less PPC.

5.5 damage on average is... not really "extreme".

As for "ignoring terrain", well. One of the reasons my LRMs have such low accuracy is that I fire a lot of them indirectly. And they hit terrain instead of the target. Or lose lock before impact, again hitting terrain.

If I truly want to be effective with LRMs I have to use them as direct-fire weapons, and I have to supplement them with Artemis, TAG, BAP, and a couple of modules. I also have to be in a rather narrow span of roughly 200-600 meters; hardly what you'd call Long Range.

[Mystere]

Saxie, on 14 September 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

lolwut...? 1.5 piece of equipment. 2.5 tons worth of counter that still don't help targeting if its outside of 700m. You're right completely balanced. Direct Fire has always ruled the roost and will continue to do so. However ECM should not stop the LOS targeting... However there are some decent proposals out there, that really open things up, even throw some role warfare in there.

Also inferring that McGral is a bad... smh

I think you missed my point ... by a few light years.

Edited by Mystere, 14 September 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[ramjb]

stjobe, on 14 September 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but my LRMs have roughly a 25% accuracy, as compared to roughly 50% for my PPCs.

This means a salvo from a LRM-20 does only 5.5 damage on average, as compared to 5 for the 3 ton lighter, ammo-less PPC.
...
[/other nonsensical bull]

Can you fire PPC from behind a hill, where noone can shoot back?.

Is it harder to aim a PPC or to aim a LRM?. By how much?. If the target is moving at a moderate speed (say, 80kph), is it easier or harder to hit with a PPC?. And with LRMs?

If a target moves into cover when you shoot with your PPC before it impacts, will it hit the target, or not?. If a target moves into cover when you shoot with LRMS before they impact, will they hit the target, or not?.

Will a buddy marking the target with a TAG or a NARC make your PPC magical weapons of doom?.

Does your PPC shake the cockpit of whoever you hit as if it's been hit by an AC20?

Does your PPC have the option to fire in a single volley or in a 4-strong non-stop series of firing sequences that will keep your target's cockpit shaking until he's dead or you run out of ammo? (LRM5/LRM10x4).

Coincidentally, a LRM20 with 4xLRM5 clan missiles is four tons. three tons less than your PPC.

LRM20 with LRM15+LRM5 clan missiles is 5.5 tons. 1.5 ton less than your PPC

LRM20 with 2xLRM10 clan missiles is 5 tons. two tons less than your PPC

Your arguments are invalid.

Edited by ramjb, 14 September 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

Mystere, on 14 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I think you missed my point ... by a few light years.

Helps if you make a point clear. Otherwise you look like Mudhut

Edited by Saxie, 14 September 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[M3 SABLE]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

1. LRMs do not ignore terrain. You speak as if they can go through them.

2. LRMs only does noticeable damage when boated heavily and the damage is spread all over the mech, making it inefficient.

3. LRM boats are always at risk of getting caught as they can do nothing up close.

You are simply exaggerating LRM effectiveness while deliberately ignoring weaknesses of LRMs. That's not how one should debate.

Oh, and you consider that your attitude/arguments worth something? A bunch of you declare that people who complain about LRM, are just terribad, whining, incompetent players. Very nice way to debate.


That weapon is still great to accompany the rest of your arsenal. You can use all types of weaponry when you see a target, and assist your team mates with LRM salvos when your have no target in LoS, but have them tagged by your team mates, and while you approach the target.

To me, that is a fire-support weapon, and i like where it is now. It peels off armor off of targets, that leads to the rest of your team destroying target's components much easier, with the rest of the arsenal.

It feels like you argue for the sake of people who want to have all their load-out to be LRM, and I really could care less about that type of play.

If someone goes 100% LRM load out, that is his problem and risk taken, when he encounters close-quarters Brawler, against which he can do nothing.

That load-out however, is not weak when played "as-intended", in combination and help of your team, like light mech TAGing/NARCing.




And with Clan's over-all firepower, I really could care less whether LRM are powerful or weak. If i don't die to LRM 60 boat, i prolly will against a Direwolf with double gauss, double PPC, etc etc. The cool feature of ECM for me, is the cloaking which helps me to sneak around both, at least a little bit.

If it gets a mode where you can cloak only >your< clumsy mech, and still can disrupt enemy radar... then whatever happens, happens.

Edited by Unikron, 14 September 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Mystere]

Saxie, on 14 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Helps if you make a point clear. Otherwise you look like Mudhut

(*)@$*((!
*@+)*&^%$#@!
$*_+@)@*! @^%!
$$@%!$&!!!






< >

Edited by Mystere, 14 September 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Mcgral18]

ramjb, on 14 September 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Can you fire PPC from behind a hill, where noone can shoot back?.

Is it harder to aim a PPC or to aim a LRM?. By how much?.

Will a buddy marking the target with a TAG or a NARC make your PPC magical weapons of doom?.

Does your PPC shake the cockpit of whoever you hit as if it's been hit by an AC20?

Does your PPC have the option to fire in a single volley or in a 4-strong non-stop series of firing sequences that will keep your target's cockpit shaking until he's dead or you run out of ammo? (LRM5/LRM10x4).

Coincidentally, a LRM20 with 4xLRM5 clan missiles is four tons. three tons less than your PPC.

LRM20 with LRM15+LRM5 clan missiles is 5.5 tons. 1.5 ton less than your PPC

LRM20 with 2xLRM10 clan missiles is 5 tons. two tons less than your PPC

Your arguments are invalid.

Before the days of HoverJets™ you could indeed fire those PPCs, ACs and Gauss from cover while barely exposing yourself.

PPCs are a hell of a lot easier to get hits with, you point and you shoot. You don't have to worry about Magic Jesus Box, Cover, if that overpass you're under will interfere with your projectile. I wish I could have direct fire missiles that weren't slow as balls. Not even SRMs do that.

Shake is a valid concern.


Also...you know what a SINGLE AMS will do to cLRMs? It will remove 20. Did you know 2 AMS will destroy 30 cLRMs?
You're required to boat them.

Your arguments are flawed.

[ApolloKaras]

Mystere, on 14 September 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

(*)@$*((!
*@+)*&^%$#@!
$*_+@)@*! @^%!
$$@%!$&!!!






< >

That made my day lol!

[ramjb]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Before the days of HoverJets™ you could indeed fire those PPCs, ACs and Gauss from cover while barely exposing yourself.

And in the days where the humans lived in the caves noone played MWO. Don't tell me grannanny's stories. The game is what it is now, and LRMs are as they are NOW. Not "back when I lived at my grandma's"

Quote

PPCs are a hell of a lot easier to get hits with, you point and you shoot.

Bull. Utter and extreme bull. PPCs are projectile weapons which require target leading and in fact even against a still target is not a guaranteed hit (with enough distance and if he can move away quick enough). LRMS don't require anything other than putting your pipper somewhere close to a target box and clicking. No aiming. No leading. Nothing. Just move your pipper into a general area, and click.

Quote

Also...you know what a SINGLE AMS will do to cLRMs? It will remove 20. Did you know 2 AMS will destroy 30 cLRMs?
You're required to boat them.

I have AMS in almost every one of my builds. It might be effective agaisnt a single guy firing a handful of missiles. It's makes no difference against a proper LRM boat, and it's a non-factor when you're subjected to the concentrated fire of several LRM launchers - which is the norm in nowadays random games where as soon as first contact is made, five or six streaks of missiles instantly take off in it's direction.

Quote

Your arguments are flawed.

Since the moment you say hitting with a PPC is easier than with a LRM, is easy to spot whose arguments are flawed here. And no, they're not mine.

Edited by ramjb, 14 September 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Mcgral18]

ramjb, on 14 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Since the moment you say hitting with a PPC is easier than with a LRM, is easy to spot whose arguments are flawed here. And no, they're not mine.

What a wonderful day in the Forums.

[ramjb]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

What a wonderful day in the Forums.

So once you run out of arguments you resort to childish images. If you can't debate, you try to somehow divert attention with a stupid image that is non-consequential with the topic at hand, just to disrespect the points you can't debunk by arguing.

Yep, wonderful day in the forums.

[M3 SABLE]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

PPCs are a hell of a lot easier to get hits with, you point and you shoot. You don't have to worry about Magic Jesus Box, Cover, if that overpass you're under will interfere with your projectile. I wish I could have direct fire missiles that weren't slow as balls.


Your arguments are flawed.

Hahahahahaha... What a skilled LRM boater man... I wish i could use PPC like you, especially after nerf.


And I don't see why the hell you worry about people with Magic Jesus box. Ever since Clan arrival, no one even bothers about ECM. They run up to you on extreme speeds or, annihilate everyone with their Master Race weapons from extreme range.

The only ECM carriers, are some solo squirrels that like to scratch your back when you are occupied with Stromcrow/TBR/DIrewolf right in front of you (which have NO ECM)

Edited by Unikron, 14 September 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Mcgral18]

ramjb, on 14 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

So once you run out of arguments you resort to childish images. If you can't debate, you try to somehow divert attention with a stupid image that is non-consequential with the topic at hand, just to disrespect the points you can't debunk by arguing.

Yep, wonderful day in the forums.

You're the one saying using direct fire weapons is hard....you're saying that's not trolling?

Unikron, on 14 September 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Hahahahahaha... What a skilled LRM boater man... I wish i could use PPC like you, especially after nerf.


And I don't see why the hell you worry about people with Magic Jesus box. Ever since Clan arrival, no one even bothers about ECM. They run up to you on extreme speeds or, annihilate everyone with their Master Race weapons from extreme range.

The only ECM carriers, are some solo squirrels that like to scratch your back when you are occupied with Stromcrow/TBR/DIrewolf right in front of you (which have NO ECM)

Guess what the Magic Jesus Box does? It gives Stealth armour to every mech in a 180 M bubble, and also counters Lvl1 LRMs, while it should only counter LVL2 LRMs, such as Artemis.


But I guess some people like their easy mode.

[ramjb]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

You're the one saying using direct fire weapons is hard....you're saying that's not trolling?

I never said it's hard or easy to use direct fire weapons. But while to extract results from dumb-firing, track-requiring, and in some cases, lead-demanding weapons, you indeed need to apply a lot more skill and practice than in just putting your pipper near a red box and then clicking.

Arguing against that fact is just nonsensical. And is what you're trying to do here. Even shooting a cERLL at a moving target that you need to track while the beam is on (specially a fast one) takes more skill than lobbing some missiles at him. And on top of that, you can lob those missiles while not exposing yourself, so is not just easier, it's also less risky.

/argument.

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

But I guess some people like their easy mode.

Obviously. You're defending LRMs, wich is EZmode indeed.

Edited by ramjb, 14 September 2014 - 09:14 AM.

[M3 SABLE]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

You're the one saying using direct fire weapons is hard....you're saying that's not trolling?



Guess what the Magic Jesus Box does? It gives Stealth armour to every mech in a 180 M bubble, and also counters Lvl1 LRMs, while it should only counter LVL2 LRMs, such as Artemis.


But I guess some people like their easy mode.

Hey, "Mega Pro", Learn to use TAG then. And learn to cooperate with your team to allow you full potential of LRM system.

Since according to you it takes so much skill, why strip yourself off of pleasure to take on that challenge?

Let us poor noobs who use PPC, remain in confines of Jesus ECM Christ, just a little more.

[Mcgral18]

I think it's amazing people mange to defend Magic Jesus Box...

I guess everyone has an opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

[M3 SABLE]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think it's amazing people mange to defend Magic Jesus Box...

I guess everyone has an opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

Except what is wrong or right, is also an opinion. Go show the noobs how lurming is done by a pro. Forget about those ECM scrubs and petty PPC peasants.

Edited by Unikron, 14 September 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Unikron, on 14 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Except what is wrong or right, is also an opinion. Go show the noobs how lurming is done by a pro. Forget about those ECM scrubs and petty PPC peasants.

Nah, I'm all WUB.

WubShee eats direct fire and LRMs alike. Both are inferior underhive weapons.


There is some sarcasm in the above.

[Malleus011]

Pappy,

To assuage your concerns, nobody I'm aware of who is working towards an ECM tweak wants it to delay CW, or new maps, or any other badly needed content. We are attempting to perform most of the brainstorming work of a potential fix ourselves, and then present the potential fix to Russ for evaluation. IF we get a consensus, and IF Russ will go along, then our proposed fix would get put into the development cycle, along with everything else the dev team is working on. Nobody is asking that ECM work cut in line before other issues.

If anything, this may be superior to simply asking the Devs to fix things, as a lot of the debate can be handled beforehand. It might actually help resolve problem quicker and more effectively, if we can make it work.

I agree with you that there is lot in MWO that needs attention. Nobody wants CW derailed or maps delayed. But part of the issue we've had with PGI is a perception that they don't listen to player feedback. This is an opportunity for the community to be heard, and for PGI to show that they do care about making the game the players want. Abandoning this chance at good dialog seems wasteful. Even if you don't think ECM is the top problem the game has, it's a chance to help fix *something*. If we can make this process work well, maybe we can tackle the other important issues next - like community maps, or more game modes, or our beloved Match Maker.

(PS - I'd LOVE an stock IS vs. Clans feature)