81 replies to this topic

[Riverboat Sam]

I continue to be amazed by the amount of emotion on these forums expressed about weapon n*e*r*fs (pardon, trying not to get moderated into the dustbin).

Most seem to believe that it's because of community complaints. I don't think it is. If you listened to the community town hall on NGNG it was stated flatly that modifications to weapon and mech profiles, ghost heat, etc., are all being driven by an attempt to moderate the effectiveness of alpha strikes. Nothing to do with anything else. That's according to the Prez hisself.

Of course, that is driven by the basic computer game genre of the point and click first person shooter. There is a huge market for FPS games where your success as a player depends entirely upon your reaction time and eye-hand coordination. Nothing else matters. Not much anyway. The first person to recognize a target, get their cursor on it and click wins.

That reaction time is a born trait. You cannot improve it, no matter how hard you may try. Everyone is at where they're at. If you're slow, you will always be slow. If you're fast, etc.

The "death match", mode of fps games are never very popular because they are mercilessly dominated by the tiny percentage of players with the quickest reaction time. The only way to make money developing an fps is by creating a campaign mode that can be controlled by the developers to offer a good play experience to players with any reaction time. Look at Halo, Quake, etc. It was also stated in the town hall that PGI wants nothing to do with creating a single player campaign version of MWO.

This all translates to MWO via the alpha strike. If you can build a mech with enough power to alpha strike other mechs to death in one shot, and you are blessed with a fast point and click reaction time, then you can simply walk through MWO matches cleaning the other team off the field. That is what PGI is trying to prevent.

My suggestion is that they go about it in a different way. Use the solution from the old Xbox Mechwarrior series. Simply make it a quirk of all mechs that if you alpha strike you shut down for cooldown. No exceptions. No modifications. It would completely put an end to the cat and mouse guessing game between that PGI developers and players. Fast players want their alpha strike builds so they can dominate. PGI wants a profitable game, so they know they have to give players with all different reaction times a chance to win.

I think the solution is that simple. One, single quirk. Alpha strike shutdown.

[KingCobra]

NIce topic but it has been beat to death like a dead horse for 3 years and no changes? I even put a topic up about removing Alpha strikes from the game and putting more time on chain fire mode between firing each weapon to make the game more challenging.

As you can see nothing has changed on that aspect in 3 years of game play.

Edited by KingCobra, 14 September 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[FDJustin]

Enlil09, on 14 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

That reaction time is a born trait. You cannot improve it, no matter how hard you may try. Everyone is at where they're at. If you're slow, you will always be slow. If you're fast, etc.

Where'd you hear that? I bet there's quite a number of ways to improve your reaction time. Including simply playing the game long enough to become subconsciously predictive.

[Lefty Lucy]

So people would simply build a small laser into their mechs they never fire.

Nice game design /s

Removing alpha strikes has never been a viable answer because it creates more problems than it solves. If you don't like the fact that a person with faster reflexes has an advantage over you, then you probably should be playing turn-based games.

Hell, the fact of the matter is that the advantage of lightning-fast reflexes is pretty well removed by the fact that mechs torsos take time to reach the aiming reticle.

[stoogah]

Less heat capacity and faster heat dissipation is the best solution imo (if balanced properly). I wish we had the test server up for the weekend once per 1/2/3 months with most wanted/experimental changes. It's a win-win for the players and the dev's.

[Elizander]

I like alpha strikes, so there.

[Carrie Harder]

Alpha striking is only a problem when all of the weapons from said alpha instantly converge onto a single pixel.

[KraftySOT]

Nah this is going in the wrong direction. In the board game in this era, almost every mech can fire every weapon it has and not make heat (or much).

The issue is that weapons in the board game, splash damage around, and in this, it doesnt.

Id sooner suggest that weapon convergence not be this automatic thing that happens. Torso weapons shouldnt converge at all, or take a hint from flight sims and let you set it before the battle. Firing under or over convergence, your weapons hits are spread out. You want to hit at convergence.

Arms...same thing. They fire forward. The thing here would be a small delay on the arms converging to hit the target in the same location, requiring you to wait once youve put your cross hairs over the enemy. The enemy of course can then just back up, or start splashing damage on you first, but inaccurately.

The poptarting is annoying, but the way to fix it, isnt nerfing, ghost heat, or any of the other solutions ive heard.

Its weapon convergence.

Carrie Harder, on 14 September 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Alpha striking is only a problem when all of the weapons from said alpha instantly converge onto a single pixel.

Exactly.

I mean if you think about it its pretty ridiculous.

For your laser in your right torso, to converge dynamically on a target from 100m out to 900m...it has to physically move the entire laser array, inside the mech, with 16 degrees of freedom to make that happen.

How exactly is that possible? Mechs are simply far to accurate, and thats the issue.

[Dark Jackal]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Nah this is going in the wrong direction. In the board game in this era, almost every mech can fire every weapon it has and not make heat (or much).

The issue is that weapons in the board game, splash damage around, and in this, it doesnt.

Actually, anyone that plays the board game will run into a situation of whether or not the risk in firing weapons is worth the penalties from the heat scale that you will suffer on the next turn. So right from there, that consideration every TT player does is missing from the get-go because there is a disparity in the risk-reward mechanisms with heat in most 'Mech titles to date.

MWO online has no real penalties for firing beyond the heat sink capacity other than shutting down. Anyone can look up the table top penalties and they are, quite frankly, HUGE risks involved like doing an alpha from very slow movement (that effects the walk, not run, of the 'Mech) to making it difficult to fire (what jump jets do now but what heat does not do) to potential forced shutdown if a PSR isn't met to a forced ammo explosion if a PSR fails. Now, for anyone's homework they can do the math with a NOVA-Prime and see how well that Omni will perform the next turn.

MWO is pretty generous if you ask me compared to the TT.

Edited by Dark Jackal, 14 September 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[Podex]

There are plenty of real-world fixes. Ballistics and missile heavy alphas could cause random structural failures. Energy heavy builds could have random powerplant failures. Unused Gauss rifle charges could have capacitor explosions. etc...

It's not TT, but there are viable options.

[Mcgral18]

Magical convergence is the issue.

[KraftySOT]

Dark Jackal, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Actually, anyone that plays the board game will run into a situation of whether or not the risk in firing weapons is worth the penalties from the heat scale that you will suffer on the next turn. So right from there, that consideration every TT player does is missing from the get-go because there is a disparity in the risk-reward mechanisms with heat in most 'Mech titles to date.

MWO online has no real penalties for firing beyond the heat sink capacity other than shutting down. Anyone can look up the table top penalties and they are, quite frankly, HUGE risks involved like doing an alpha from very slow movement (that effects the walk, not run, of the 'Mech) to making it difficult to fire (what jump jets do now but what heat does not do) to potential forced shutdown if a PSR isn't met to a forced ammo explosion if a PSR fails. Now, for anyone's homework they can do the math with a NOVA-Prime and see how well that Omni will perform the next turn.

MWO is pretty generous if you ask me compared to the TT.

Really? Outside of 3025, heat is really a non issue unless you jump. Especially for inner sphere mechs...but most of the best mechs are balanced:

http://i1184.photobu...zpsd75af10c.png

Youll make 2 for running So what thats 4 rounds of alphas before you take a to hit penalty? Not really an issue.

The only mechs post 3050 that arent heat balanced, are because theyre inner sphere mechs with min ranges. So you wont in most situations fire both sets of weapons (Stalkers for instance)

Theres a FEW exceptions, the Grasshopper for example...but most are heat balanced. Double heat sinks changed all that worrying about heat stuff.

[KraftySOT]

http://i1184.photobu...Masakari-RS.jpg

Examples of non heat balanced mechs certainly exist.

66 heat with running, 40 sinked, he's got a 50% chance of a shutdown. Though really the LRM is kind of an after thought. You use that after the armor is breached to cause crits.

And of course if you dont fire the LRM, you have a ~13% of shutdown or ammo explosion.

[Adiuvo]

Considering the dominant mech right now is a laser boat, I'm surprised that you consider alpha strikes a problem.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

http://i1184.photobu...Masakari-RS.jpg

Examples of non heat balanced mechs certainly exist.

66 heat with running, 40 sinked, he's got a 50% chance of a shutdown. Though really the LRM is kind of an after thought. You use that after the armor is breached to cause crits.

And of course if you dont fire the LRM, you have a ~13% of shutdown or ammo explosion.

And of course the Hellstar comes later and is essentially heat neutral with 4 CERPPC.

You could not play this mech effectively in MWO.

If anything MWO's heat system is *less* forgiving to energy boats.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 14 September 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Considering the dominant mech right now is a laser boat, I'm surprised that you consider alpha strikes a problem.

Lasers still fall under alpha strikes. Just not frontloaded alpha strikes, but they certainly are pinpoint, and hitscan.

[KraftySOT]

Nothing should really be dominant.

Locusts take down Atlases in the TT given the right circumstances. So long as he can put that to-hit from hexes moved higher than the Atlas has any real chance of hitting him, and always ending in the rear arc...that Atlas is screwed.

Of course that Atlas puts his back to some water, pavement, or something else causing a nice piloting check when running, and the tables can turn. Thats why the board game is so great. The rules were perfect. (at least until maxtech, and well you still had long toms that were just ********)

And yeah the ghostheat is a result of all the weapons being pinpoint accurate and converge on a single pixel. They have to keep making it harder on you, because you can do something you couldnt do in the TT. You couldnt hit a single part of an enemy mech 90% of the time other than by luck.

Theres plenty of ways to balance it that arent about adding in things that never existed. Lets talk about recycle times and convergence, not more nerfs and random things that will just be ripped out of the next incarnation 8 years from now because it was a terrible idea.

The issue is, how do you make people miss, and make it their own fault. I dont think anyone wants to aim with dice...or target a mech and then your weapons just fire on their own randomly. No one wants things taken out of their hands.

Doing a convergence system like flight sims have, is definitely a better solution. It fixes the problem, adds more strategy and meta, and detracts nothing, and doesnt move us away from the TT rules.

[KraftySOT]

AND

Convergence fixes hardpoints.

You no longer need to do that system from Mech Commander, to try and make mechs distinct and not have them just all throw on the best meta weapons. It does it on its own. Acs beat lasers, lasers beat missiles, missiles beat acs. Every one laser boating is getting out damaged by direct AC damage. Lasers are ammo less, and out last missiles. Missiles dont need convergence, and out damage ACs. People will still 'boat' and theres nothing wrong with that. Theres dozens of 'boats' that are built that way from the get go. The other mechs co exist in a world with tanks and infantry which we have none of.

There is no use for a dynamic mech chassis (Viiictoooor, or a Timber Wolf Prime) when youll never be machine gunning infantry, critting hover tanks, picking up trees for clubs, and min/mixing your to hit with jump jets. All you want are two things. Hole punchers. And crit machines.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Lasers still fall under alpha strikes. Just not frontloaded alpha strikes, but they certainly are pinpoint, and hitscan.

Before the big boogyman was pinpoint FLD damage. Now it seems like it's just 'high' damage that people are complaining about.

There's a point where a line needs to be drawn. Lasers are annoying for many reasons, but high damage isn't really one of them. If someone is able to hold a laser burn on you to deal that high damage they are playing well. It's a difficult thing against anyone good and you should be rewarded if you do it successfully.

TTK is something that's often harped on but I honestly think it's fine. Even for lights. If you can torso twist well and aren't caught out, mechs will survive for quite awhile. I don't want this game to ever turn into something where you can walk in front of 2 assaults and a heavy and come out perfectly fine. A lot of people seem to want positioning mistakes to be less punishing, but the importance of positioning is what really sets this game apart from others.

[pcunite]

The suspension of disbelief says that a computer could "converge" my weapons for me and that I can fire all my weapons at the same time. Don't turn this game into something from Mattel and "safe" for kids. Look for the root of the problem (hint: lack of true role warfare, where pawns protect queens).