81 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Also I disagree that any mechs in battletech, are dropping from one or two alpha strikes. Mechs are much hardier because of the way damage works. Sure you might get unlucky, but chances are, if youre over 50 tons, you can take multiple PPC hits and keep on trucking. 20% of the hits go the legs. Not even close in MWO.

Not to mention no calling of shots reliably with stock pilots or even veteran pilots, so even if theres a wide open CT, the chances of you hitting it, and actually hitting a gyro, knocking it over so you can kick it to death, is slim.

That Timber A can take a multiturn pounding from any mech, short of maybe a King Crab that decided to park 3-5 hexes away and you just decided to do nothing about it.

A single combat that's not part of a larger campaign rarely lasts more than 3-6 rounds after both sides are fully engaged in BT. So that's 30-60 seconds of "game time" that happens to take a few hours of "real time."

Compared to MWO TT mechs die about as fast, it's just that in MWO 10 seconds of game time takes 10 seconds of real time too.

[KraftySOT]

In theory, that Timber can take 14 clan ppc hits and still be completely effective.

It probably wont take that many to get a fall, or knock something off, but you can toe to toe with a Direwolf for a few turns with a slight amount of luck, and still be rocking and rolling.

A Timber against something in its weight class...lets say an IS tech 3 mech, like a Grasshopper, were talking a huge number of alphas before it goes down.

Lefty Lucy, on 14 September 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

A single combat that's not part of a larger campaign rarely lasts more than 3-6 rounds after both sides are fully engaged in BT. So that's 30-60 seconds of "game time" that happens to take a few hours of "real time."

Compared to MWO TT mechs die about as fast, it's just that in MWO 10 seconds of game time takes 10 seconds of real time too.

That depends ENTIRELY on the era and number of units. 4 on 4, its gonna be a while. 12 on 12, youre going to have a winner in a few rounds. Someones going to nail a head, someones ammos gonna go, a thru armor crit will gyro someone, and someone is /victory

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 01:02 PM.

[Artgathan]

Adiuvo, on 14 September 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Considering the dominant mech right now is a laser boat, I'm surprised that you consider alpha strikes a problem.

Interestingly (I'm assuming you're referring to the 2 LPL or LL, 5 ML TBR), the problem with it's alpha is that even though the beams burn over the course of ~1.2 seconds, the amount of damage their doing per tick is still pretty high.

Assuming that damage from a beam weapon is calculated using ticks 0.05 seconds (50 milliseconds) apart (so the damage of an ER ML is divided into 25 'ticks' that do 0.28 damage each). This means then that an alpha from this build deals 2.36 damage per tick (5 * 0.28 + 2 * 0.48 from the LPLs). Using the average human reaction time of ~260 milliseconds, this means that this build will inflict 11.8 damage before the target reacts (with 47.2 damage remaining to be distributed). That's a significant amount of damage, especially considering that lasers start hitting the target the instant the trigger is pulled.

[Tarl Cabot]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Really? Outside of 3025, heat is really a non issue unless you jump. Especially for inner sphere mechs...but most of the best mechs are balanced:

http://i1184.photobu...zpsd75af10c.png

Youll make 2 for running So what thats 4 rounds of alphas before you take a to hit penalty? Not really an issue.

The only mechs post 3050 that arent heat balanced, are because theyre inner sphere mechs with min ranges. So you wont in most situations fire both sets of weapons (Stalkers for instance)

Theres a FEW exceptions, the Grasshopper for example...but most are heat balanced. Double heat sinks changed all that worrying about heat stuff.

The heat may have been balanced out, in that at the end of a round the final heat scale was below any critical points (shutdown/movement/targeting/ammo explosion issues) but the MWO does not even use the basic Battletech heat scale. And be it 3025 or 3050, in Battletech weapons firing only ONCE in a ten second round.

Now move that to the Solaris (Mech Duel Rules - 2.5 sec rounds) where the mechs without heat issues primarily field machine guns has the least amount of issues. In this game most weapons could be fired again, but only after a specific number of rounds. Heat was generated at 4x their Battletech figure with heat sinks dissipated the heat at the Battletech rate (17 DHS = 34 heat dissipated each round). This is how Solaris rules took more control over the dissipation rate. Remember though, most weapons could not be fired every 2.5 seconds, and to fire multiple weapons they had to be setup, prior to being fired, on a TIC (Target Interlock Circuit - weapons grouping) Basically there would be mechs that would do great in Battletech but would became a furnace in Solaris.

http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Duel_Rules

Quote

The most important changes are as follows:

• A turn represents 2.5 seconds of real time (as opposed to 10 in the standard rules)
  
• 
  
• The scale is four times smaller than the scale of the standard rules, changing the diameter the area a hex represents from 30 meters down to 7.5 meters and quadrupling weapon ranges accordingly.
  
• 
  
• Weapons produce four times the heat of their standard values, creating heat spikes even where none could exist in the standard game the heat scale is adapted to this; heat sinks operate during each turn to match
  
• 
  
• Most weapons require some time to recycle until they can be fired again, measured in rounds.
  
• 
  
• Because of the limited time, a MechWarrior can perform only a certain number of actions per turn (e.g. walk, fire a single weapon, fire a Target Interlock Circuit, etc.)
  
• 
  
• There are some advanced actions like evading, aiming or sprinting.
  
• 
  
• A jump can last up to four turns and it is possible to change the course or to fire during a jump

Are we asking PGI to follow Solaris rules to the detail? No, but leaving out the other side of heat effect, the balancing part, is one of the primary issues we are seeing today because the game is lacking one of the foundations of the game it is being built on.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 September 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Dark Jackal]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

If you look at the sheet, its 40 heat dissipation.

Thats actually only getting you a movement malus, which doesnt matter unless youre a light that lives and dies by its total hexes moved modifier.
...
Ah you noted the correct math though.

But I beg to differ that the movement malus makes any sort of difference. The to hit is the only thing that matters, and the streak wont fire unless it hits, so im not counting its heat.

Yes, you also get a Pilot malus too as you're doing +8 heat that goes onto the heat table. Movement is your call if you want to take risk with a BV heavy shiny Timby-A if you think you won't really benefit from moving 5/8 and chose to do 4/6 with a pilot 4/4. My point is that it is the Risk vs Reward in the TT is largely missing in MWO.

Some times you get lucky, some times you don't. That's a risk you want to take.

So if you compare the two you should see MWO is very generous whereas the TT is quite penalty heavy if your risks don't achieve what you intend to do and you suffer. I don't suffer from over heating other than an annoying sound and just avoiding shutdown, that's largely it in MWO. Pretty gentle.

Plus ... coolant pods.

Quote

And I play Megameknet pretty much daily, in the 3025 campaign, and used to play the 3052 campaign, but I get enough of the Ultra ACs and whatnot here.

Alpha strikes are par for the course. The whole meta revolves around getting enough faction points to use the mech roll to get the mechs that are heat balanced (of which there are many) and then face ****** everyone. That or artillery.

And thats 3025...where theres vastly less heat balanced mechs.

But youve still got the Charger, most lights, and a nice selection of mediums. The few that do make heat are relatively rare, or mechs like the Crusader, that are going to have min range problems, so you cant in all honesty, fire the two lrm 15s, AND the Srms. The window for doing so is just a few hexes which anyone will deny you.

Of course in 3025 it doesnt matter really, because it all degenerates into a kick fest any ways.

BattleTech is the risk taking table top game where if you're not careful your Masc running Men Shen may make that crummy Atlas have to roll a 12/12 for his ERLL, but when it hits your Men Shen's cockpit you're a sitting duck!

I didn't just play TT/MM, I did help run some of the NBT MegaMek and credited in two TT rulebooks. There is some level of balance that tries to achieve a good risk vs. reward so that if you choose to alpha with weapons that generate more heat than what your heat sinks allows, that's your choice as the player if you think your odds are good this round and they will outweighs the penalties to the next round give (and advantage the opponent is going to receive). Now, there are some really good cheese 'Mechs out there if you take two or more they cause some head aches but we largely don't have that in MWO because PGI hasn't even got the core balance down quite just yet.

So the issue isn't really an alpha, especially if your weapons can be sinked by your heat sinks which you took to risk to invest in with the configuration of your 'Mech. That's another very large issue is the variety of engines and amount of tweaking of armor values unbalances the games in ways the TT never meant to happen. You can essentially make a light Mech going 6/9 go 6.5/10, have about the same DPS weapons load out and not have to suffer the same weight constraints of having it go 7/11. Alternatively, some heavier designs don't have to go fast given how small the maps are. Instead, you can save some weight and space going down a few tons on the engine and boat more stuff to make you effective. So, there's less risk v. rewards in the configurations of 'Mechs too with just engines alone.

[Aresye]

Artgathan, on 14 September 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Interestingly (I'm assuming you're referring to the 2 LPL or LL, 5 ML TBR), the problem with it's alpha is that even though the beams burn over the course of ~1.2 seconds, the amount of damage their doing per tick is still pretty high.

Assuming that damage from a beam weapon is calculated using ticks 0.05 seconds (50 milliseconds) apart (so the damage of an ER ML is divided into 25 'ticks' that do 0.28 damage each). This means then that an alpha from this build deals 2.36 damage per tick (5 * 0.28 + 2 * 0.48 from the LPLs). Using the average human reaction time of ~260 milliseconds, this means that this build will inflict 11.8 damage before the target reacts (with 47.2 damage remaining to be distributed). That's a significant amount of damage, especially considering that lasers start hitting the target the instant the trigger is pulled.

If anything, you just proved how laser builds are nowhere near as much of a problem as PP FLD.

11.8 damage before a target has a chance to react is a lot better than say:
Dragon Slayer Meta: 30 damage before reaction.
Timberwolf Meta: 45 damage before reaction.
Dire Wolf Meta: 60 damage before reaction.

Hell, an IS AC20 does a full 20 damage before the pilot gets a chance to react, and there's Boomjagers that do 40 damage before reaction time.

Please tell me how you figure 11.8 damage before reaction is a problem when a plethora of mechs and weapons can do 5-6x this amount with no reaction?

[Bhael Fire]

Enlil09, on 14 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

It was also stated in the town hall that PGI wants nothing to do with creating a single player campaign version of MWO.

Not sure if this was pointed out yet, but Russ specifically stated in the THM that they are looking in developing single-player content after CW is delivered.

[KraftySOT]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 September 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

The heat may have been balanced out, in that at the end of a round the final heat scale was below any critical points (shutdown/movement/targeting/ammo explosion issues) but the MWO does not even use the basic Battletech heat scale. And be it 3025 or 3050, in Battletech weapons firing only ONCE in a ten second round.

Now move that to the Solaris (Mech Duel Rules - 2.5 sec rounds) where the mechs without heat issues primarily field machine guns has the least amount of issues. In this game most weapons could be fired again, but only after a specific number of rounds. Heat was generated at 4x their Battletech figure with heat sinks dissipated the heat at the Battletech rate (17 DHS = 34 heat dissipated each round). This is how Solaris rules took more control over the dissipation rate. Remember though, most weapons could not be fired every 2.5 seconds, and to fire multiple weapons they had to be setup, prior to being fired, on a TIC (Target Interlock Circuit - weapons grouping) Basically there would be mechs that would do great in Battletech but would became a furnace in Solaris.

http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Duel_Rules

[/list]Are we asking PGI to follow Solaris rules to the detail? No, but leaving out the other side of heat effect, the balancing part, is one of the primary issues we are seeing today because the game is lacking one of the foundations of the game it is being built on.

So what I want to know is...why doesnt it use the battletech heat scale and recycle times?

Arent you shooting yourself in the foot when you depart from it?

All the game devices we hate, have been added in to MAKE UP for the fact that theyve departed from the TT balance.

No ones going to complain about getting poptarted, if you cant poptart people. Nothing mounts 6 PPCs and nothing should. The Supernova in theory, could pop alot of mechs, but whats the chances of hitting with 6 ER larges in the same location?

You guys look at this backwards. You keep adding ghost heat and further getting away from the Battletech balance (which is about as good as Team Fortress and Quake 2, being the pinnacle of game balance. Maybe The Operational Art of War is the only thing more balanced) when the problem is, it was never AT the btech balance to begin with.

Im surely not arguing that we should keep the same tertiary rules if we changed the alpha strike paradigm.

[KraftySOT]

Dark Jackal, on 14 September 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yes, you also get a Pilot malus too as you're doing +8 heat that goes onto the heat table. Movement is your call if you want to take risk with a BV heavy shiny Timby-A if you think you won't really benefit from moving 5/8 and chose to do 4/6 with a pilot 4/4. My point is that it is the Risk vs Reward in the TT is largely missing in MWO.

Some times you get lucky, some times you don't. That's a risk you want to take.

So if you compare the two you should see MWO is very generous whereas the TT is quite penalty heavy if your risks don't achieve what you intend to do and you suffer. I don't suffer from over heating other than an annoying sound and just avoiding shutdown, that's largely it in MWO. Pretty gentle.

Plus ... coolant pods.



BattleTech is the risk taking table top game where if you're not careful your Masc running Men Shen may make that crummy Atlas have to roll a 12/12 for his ERLL, but when it hits your Men Shen's cockpit you're a sitting duck!

I didn't just play TT/MM, I did help run some of the NBT MegaMek and credited in two TT rulebooks. There is some level of balance that tries to achieve a good risk vs. reward so that if you choose to alpha with weapons that generate more heat than what your heat sinks allows, that's your choice as the player if you think your odds are good this round and they will outweighs the penalties to the next round give (and advantage the opponent is going to receive). Now, there are some really good cheese 'Mechs out there if you take two or more they cause some head aches but we largely don't have that in MWO because PGI hasn't even got the core balance down quite just yet.

So the issue isn't really an alpha, especially if your weapons can be sinked by your heat sinks which you took to risk to invest in with the configuration of your 'Mech. That's another very large issue is the variety of engines and amount of tweaking of armor values unbalances the games in ways the TT never meant to happen. You can essentially make a light Mech going 6/9 go 6.5/10, have about the same DPS weapons load out and not have to suffer the same weight constraints of having it go 7/11. Alternatively, some heavier designs don't have to go fast given how small the maps are. Instead, you can save some weight and space going down a few tons on the engine and boat more stuff to make you effective. So, there's less risk v. rewards in the configurations of 'Mechs too with just engines alone.

I dont disagree with many of your points. Especially about risk v reward...BUT I have to say that min/maxing that risk, is really what seperates a good btech player from a bad one. The good one is running heat neutral mechs in most eras, frontloading his initiative when the heavy weapon mechs first. You want to punch holes.

More risks in MWO is good. Im not saying it isnt. Id love a heat scale that with "8 heat" youre losing some speed from your mech. At 16+ youre running the risk of shutting down. Higher than 20, youre in bloody trouble.

HOWEVER, we wont get there, by continuing to depart from the rules.

Its strange, to me, to see someone advocate something not in the TT, while advocating something else that is in the TT. It should really all be ala mode. We should get it all.

If you WANT 40 heat dissipation and you want 2 ER PPCs an LRM 10 and to run around like a maniac and never make any heat. That should be your prerogative.

Making a phony system so you "emulate" the risk v reward of Battletech is, imho, not the right way to go.

If you want the risk v reward, its in the squeezing firepower over heat management, and actual repurcussions from doing it.

Ill concede that the TT has possibly more heat management than I care to admit (I personally play heat neutral mechs and dont see why anyone wouldnt. Effieciency is important when most of your ability to win, is based on things below the 30% rate of happening. IF you can concede that its impossible to create a mech that doesnt make any heat in MWO and thats a bloody travesty.

Instead of coming up with random nerfs and ghost heat amounts or arbitrarly deciding how many AC/2s is too many AC/2s to have (which should be useless other than crit machines vs tanks) why not just, from the start, copy the TT rules in their entirety and essence.

A world where in 10 seconds an AC/2 does more damage than an ER LL, is not a battletech world, yah feel me Vern?

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 04:29 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Target bloom, limited convergence between weapons mounted on separate parts of the mech. Pretty much solved.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Alpha Striking is not the problem, pinpoint damage a la FPS style minus cone of fire bloom is.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 14 September 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Artgathan]

Aresye, on 14 September 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

If anything, you just proved how laser builds are nowhere near as much of a problem as PP FLD.

11.8 damage before a target has a chance to react is a lot better than say:
Dragon Slayer Meta: 30 damage before reaction.
Timberwolf Meta: 45 damage before reaction.
Dire Wolf Meta: 60 damage before reaction.

Hell, an IS AC20 does a full 20 damage before the pilot gets a chance to react, and there's Boomjagers that do 40 damage before reaction time.

Please tell me how you figure 11.8 damage before reaction is a problem when a plethora of mechs and weapons can do 5-6x this amount with no reaction?

But you do have a chance to react against those weapons (unless you're at short range) as they all have flight times. In .25 seconds (human reaction time) an AC/20 flies 162.5m, a PPC 212.5, an AC/10 (or ERPPC) 237.5.

If you're at least 300m away (closer for the AC/20), you have time to shift defensively (and perhaps block the shot with a different torso section). The only way to "block" a laser weapon is to never expose the section you're protecting to it. It's much harder to defend against lasers than other weapons.

I don't mean to make it sound like lasers in general are OP (I don't really think they are). There are, in my opinion, only a few "problem" builds that use lasers to great effect, but it's more of a "perfect storm" situation than lasers being "too good".

[Dark Jackal]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

A world where in 10 seconds an AC/2 does more damage than an ER LL, is not a battletech world, yah feel me Vern?

Yes, though MWO seems to have chopped them a bit up as the 1000 MC question is the baseline of what Paul does for balance. It's not quite 10 seconds divided so I don't know how he gets the numbers he does when I look at the statistics and guess the time.

[Aresye]

Artgathan, on 14 September 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

But you do have a chance to react against those weapons (unless you're at short range) as they all have flight times. In .25 seconds (human reaction time) an AC/20 flies 162.5m, a PPC 212.5, an AC/10 (or ERPPC) 237.5.

If you're at least 300m away (closer for the AC/20), you have time to shift defensively (and perhaps block the shot with a different torso section). The only way to "block" a laser weapon is to never expose the section you're protecting to it. It's much harder to defend against lasers than other weapons.

I don't mean to make it sound like lasers in general are OP (I don't really think they are). There are, in my opinion, only a few "problem" builds that use lasers to great effect, but it's more of a "perfect storm" situation than lasers being "too good".

In a perfect scenario with sufficient range to actually see the shot go off and heading towards you, yes, you could theoretically react to it.

[Glythe]

Alpha strikes are a thing because we have too high heat thresholds coupled with automatic convergence. After being against convergence for a very long time I think it was the key culprit to blame for the alpha strike situation.


Battle tech is intended that you have weapons for every range but no one really bothers to do that in MWO. You boat as many weapons you can for your optimal range. You fire all those weapons and then you cool down and repeat as necessary.

Since convergence will not be removed it would be a lot more interesting to have weapons that individually caused more heat with heat sinks that remove heat much more efficiently. This would radically change the meta because you would eliminate alpha strikes as a viable tactic. It would effectively cap how many weapons you should fire at once. People would stop bringing 3x UAC 5s if they can't fire more than 1 shot with each before being dangerously close to the heat limit.

It would make the game stupid; but it would be less stupid than the 12 man premade alpha strike meta the game has right now.

[Quxudica]

KingCobra, on 14 September 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

NIce topic but it has been beat to death like a dead horse for 3 years and no changes? I even put a topic up about removing Alpha strikes from the game and putting more time on chain fire mode between firing each weapon to make the game more challenging.

As you can see nothing has changed on that aspect in 3 years of game play.

I've often lamented how much emphasis MWO places on large Alphas. TTK is so low in some cases it's no different than playing Arma or CoD, certainly doesn't feel like you are piloting a giant walking tank when 1-2 seconds of exposure can result it massive crippling damage.

pcunite, on 14 September 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

The suspension of disbelief says that a computer could "converge" my weapons for me and that I can fire all my weapons at the same time. Don't turn this game into something from Mattel and "safe" for kids. Look for the root of the problem (hint: lack of true role warfare, where pawns protect queens).

Thing is, the pisspoor accuracy of BT weaponry is actually a key balancing element in the Table Top. Now while that kind of thing wouldn't work well in an fps, separating arm and torso weapons to give them their own convergence ranges would help tremendously. Further I stoutly believe that no two weapons should ever converge perfectly, if your arms have six energy HPs, your arm cross hair should grow larger for each additional laser as each beam is not perfectly in line together. Different weapon types should also converge differently, combining SRMs with Ballistics and Lasers together in one Alpha should result in damage being spread all over the target or over a couple sections if in point blank.

If the game encouraged firing a fewer weapons as the norm, instead of as many at once as your mech can handle, it would greatly improve on the whole. Engagements would be far more thoughtful, blowing off components would be much more useful and crit seeking would have a real role (crit seeking is much better than it used to be, but it's still much more effective to just kill the thing if you can boat enough firepower). Alpha Strikes (meaning firing large numbers of weapons for very high damage values in this context) should still exist, but they should be acts of desperation or finishers, not the standard way weapons are used.

If PGI found a way to retool the game so that the most common weapon usage became firing a couple at a time for comparatively lower but accurate damage it would greatly increase the variety of builds that are viable. Sustained damage builds in particular would likely see a resurgence and the dominance of FLD may subside.

I really wish they would change convergence in this manner, I have no doubt in my mind the game would be better for it, but I doubt it will happen.

[El Bandito]

Enlil09, on 14 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Alpha Strike Is The Problem

I agree, Alpha Strike is OP.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 September 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Glythe]

Did you ever play Chromehounds Qux?

Eventually alpha strikes came to ruin that game too. People found a way to perfectly balance artillery weapons to fire with near zero accuracy penalties as though they were direct fire weapons.

It's quite silly to think that lasers should have recoil but the more I think about it maybe this game needs to incorporate recoil (yes even for lasers /shudder).

Basically the options are all pretty bad: ghost heat (penalties need to be more severe if they really want to stop alphas), dropping convergence (devs said never gonna happen), recoil (which is largely ridiculous given the nature of lasers), and incorporating a "max fire/charge" limitation for all weapons not just gauss (something like maybe max 4 weapons fire at a time but possibly fewer if they are larger than average).

Edited by Glythe, 14 September 2014 - 09:17 PM.

[Quxudica]

Glythe, on 14 September 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Did you ever play Chromehounds Qux?

Eventually alpha strikes came to ruin that game too. People found a way to perfectly balance artillery weapons to fire with near zero accuracy penalties as though they were direct fire weapons.

It's quite silly to think that lasers should have recoil but the more I think about it maybe this game needs to incorporate recoil (yes even for lasers /shudder).

Basically the options are all pretty bad: ghost heat (penalties need to be more severe if they really want to stop alphas), dropping convergence (devs said never gonna happen), recoil (which is largely ridiculous given the nature of lasers), and incorporating a "max fire/charge" limitation for all weapons not just gauss.

I don't think "recoil" is necessarily the answer for lasers, just give them a cone of fire that increases or decreases depending on how many you fire at once, so if you fire to many you are bathing a large portion of the mech in an energy bath. This way it's better to use fewer lasers at a time for accuracy, but an Alpha Strike with a large number of them is still dangerous in the right situations. Also lasers defuse in the atmosphere, so it would not be unreasonable for beams to grow larger the further away the target is (this could also be a quirk of each map, some defusing lasers more than others, if you really wanted to get into the sim aspect of things).

Of course as others have said a retooling of the heat system may also need to be done in tandem with convergence overhaul to really get things working the way they should.

Was Chromehounds that mech game on console? It sounds familiar but I can't place it.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Time to kill is the problem. I busted my ass for over 3 hours tonight to show a completely new person to the game who was optimistic at first. After 3 group queues, the last ending in a [CGBI] stomp with taunting, he doesn't want anything to do with MWO anymore. Part of this problem is not allowing players a smaller group queue. The other part is all the alpha strikes not giving any new players time to react and learn how to play.