81 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

lockwoodx, on 14 September 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

Time to kill is the problem. I busted my ass for over 3 hours tonight to show a completely new person to the game who was optimistic at first. After 3 group queues, the last ending in a [CGBI] stomp with taunting, he doesn't want anything to do with MWO anymore. Part of this problem is not allowing players a smaller group queue. The other part is all the alpha strikes not giving any new players time to react and learn how to play.

I'd say the games low TTK is a symptom of the problem created by convergence and the heat system emphasizing large Alpha's as the norm.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Quxudica, on 14 September 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

I'd say the games low TTK is a symptom of the problem created by convergence and the heat system emphasizing large Alpha's as the norm.

Trial mechs are build with large alphas. The problem lies deeper than you think. PGI is conditioning players to rely upon large alphas. Then they buy mechs with the best potential for large alphas... because in the bigger picture, large alphas equal shorter matches, higher turnover, and fewer players complaining about queue times. It's a filthy scummy world where a company would exploit their customers that way.

[Quxudica]

lockwoodx, on 14 September 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Trial mechs are build with large alphas. The problem lies deeper than you think. PGI is conditioning players to rely upon large alphas. Then they buy mechs with the best potential for large alphas... because in the bigger picture, large alphas equal shorter matches, higher turnover, and fewer players complaining about queue times. It's a filthy scummy world where a company would exploit their customers that way.

Well the new Trial mechs are actually community made builds aren't they? Once upon a time all the trials used canon load outs from TT (and were subsequently awful awful mechs..)

[El Bandito]

Glythe, on 14 September 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

It's quite silly to think that lasers should have recoil but the more I think about it maybe this game needs to incorporate recoil (yes even for lasers /shudder).

IMO, beam duration change is more sensible way of calibrating laser efficiency, than recoil mechanic.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 September 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[Aresye]

lockwoodx, on 14 September 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

Time to kill is the problem. I busted my ass for over 3 hours tonight to show a completely new person to the game who was optimistic at first. After 3 group queues, the last ending in a [CGBI] stomp with taunting, he doesn't want anything to do with MWO anymore. Part of this problem is not allowing players a smaller group queue. The other part is all the alpha strikes not giving any new players time to react and learn how to play.

I don't often rage quit from multiplayer games, but when I do, it's only after a few games.

I can see the problem, but honestly, it's not like every person can just hop into a multiplayer game and expect to even do remotely well right (figuratively) out of the box. If I were to fire up Call of Duty (difficult as I don't even own it), I'd get my butt handed to me. Doesn't mean that if I cared enough about Call of Duty (I don't) I wouldn't take the time to learn the game.

MechWarrior isn't for everybody. If it was, we'd have a much larger fanbase. If your buddy truly enjoys the game he'll find a way to learn and overcome the steep learning curve.

[FDJustin]

Cone of fire is trash. Leave it elsewhere.

For those saying convergence is the problem with poptarts... Yeah, you've got a point, but how about this?
Super fast falling speed is a problem. It should take a full second for our mechs to fall five meters in standard gravity. People don't like that though. Something in our brains makes us think things, especially very big things, should fall significantly faster than they do.

In one second, 5 meters. In the game, one second is... I'm not sure, that's harder to figure out. But you end up at about 37 m/s. It would take a height of 70 meters and 3.78 seconds to reach that velocity... At least according to this calculator. http://www.angio.net...nal/climb/speed

[Quxudica]

FDJustin, on 14 September 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

Cone of fire is trash. Leave it elsewhere.

For those saying convergence is the problem with poptarts... Yeah, you've got a point, but how about this?
Super fast falling speed is a problem. It should take a full second for our mechs to fall five meters in standard gravity. People don't like that though. Something in our brains makes us think things, especially very big things, should fall significantly faster than they do.

In one second, 5 meters. In the game, one second is... I'm not sure, that's harder to figure out. But you end up at about 37 m/s. It would take a height of 70 meters and 3.78 seconds to reach that velocity... At least according to this calculator. http://www.angio.net...nal/climb/speed

Why exactly is cone of fire or bloom trash? You gave no reasons for it, simply dismissing it doesn't negate it as a valid solution. I should note I don't think beams (or single shells from ballistics) from lasers should go in a new direction with every firing, rather they should be fixed like they are now but not converge to a single point. Aiming is still possible, but you can no longer get every weapon on the same pixel at the same time.

[FDJustin]

Cone of fire is trash because it's a really poor way to mimick actual difficulties in aiming. If you want there to be difficulties in aiming, actually add them.
Some already exist. Small variances in terrain throw your aim quite a bit, jumpjetting makes your reticule shake. There could be more, such as a reticule 'sway' to match your movement animation, and a small convergence delay. Convergence doesn't need to be a set distance or take much time at all.

Things like that give you the same result without just slapping the controller out of the players hand and throwing dice.

[Quxudica]

FDJustin, on 14 September 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Cone of fire is trash because it's a really poor way to mimick actual difficulties in aiming. If you want there to be difficulties in aiming, actually add them.
Some already exist. Small variances in terrain throw your aim quite a bit, jumpjetting makes your reticule shake. There could be more, such as a reticule 'sway' to match your movement animation, and a small convergence delay. Convergence doesn't need to be a set distance or take much time at all.

Things like that give you the same result without just slapping the controller out of the players hand and throwing dice.

You are looking at it the wrong way, Cone of Fire isn't supposed to "mmick difficulties in aiming" it's supposed to simulate the fact that, to be blunt, Battle Tech weapons have horrible horrible accuracy just mechanically (and this is critical to how BT is balanced). Tech in this world isn't cutting edge (especially in the Inner Sphere), it's akin to a post apocalyptic environment in which people have found the few remaining intact weapons and technologies from massive wars and are in the process of relearning how they function. The entire universe is also thoroughly grounded in the "Future of the 1980's" similar to films like Blade Runner and Alien/s - meaning some of this stuff seems primitive to us in our real world context.

Additionally, as I said, weapons would not and should not fire in a random direction with every trigger pull. If you have three medium lasers they will fire in the same pattern every time, they simply will not converge upon the same precise point the way they do now. Aiming is still entirely possible, nothing about aiming changes, there are no dice roles, but the area you are hitting increases the more weapons you fire at the same time. Meanwhile weapons mounted on the torso would have different convergence than those on the arms, meaning you need to aim these separately for good effect.

Edited by Quxudica, 15 September 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[FDJustin]

... Unless your lasers are shooting through a collidascope, they should be as accurate as a beam of light.

[Pjwned]

Alpha striking is a symptom, not the real problem.

[Quxudica]

FDJustin, on 15 September 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

... Unless your lasers are shooting through a collidascope, they should be as accurate as a beam of light.

You aren't reading what I'm saying so nevermind.

[FDJustin]

Quxudica, on 15 September 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

You aren't reading what I'm saying so nevermind.

Sure I am. What you described though, isn't cone of fire. It's "Bottom left laser always shoots eight pixels lower than the reticule, four pixels left of the reticule." (or however it would be translated in game space to be consistent across monitors.)

Rather than argue against the change of topic, I said something funny that disproves the first part of what you said "The tech is inaccurate" based on part of the earlier argument, for laser cone of fire.

Anyway, the idea of weapons having a certain field they can aim in, with a small tendency to fire at this part of a reticule is fine. It's not a cone of fire, it's just a specific part of the reticule where the weapon aims due to placement compared to other weapons.

[Kmieciu]

Pjwned, on 15 September 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Alpha striking is a symptom, not the real problem.

The problem is, and has always been, convergence.

Boating lasers is so effective, because they all hit the same spot (most of the time).

Large Laser weighs as much as 5 Medium Lasers. The beam duration is the same, so they are equally accurate. For the same weight, you can have 9 damage 7 heat or 25 damage 20 heat. No wonder the majority of light and medium mechs boat MLs.

To tell you the truth, it is actually a great mechanism that gives lighter mechs a chance. Boating light weapons is more efficient than taking few heavy ones. Lights and Mediums benefit from it, and that's a good thing. Jenners, Firestarters, Cicadas, Blackjacks, Hunchbacks - they all perform great thanks to ML boating. Shortage of heat sinks keeps them in check - they do have a drawback.

Assault mechs can boat MLs too, but with slower top speed they need all the range they can get. Battlemasters and Stalkers are therefore pretty well balanced.

The only imbalance are Timber Wolf and Stormcrow LPL\ERML boats. They both have the speed, the heat sinks, the range (400+meters), and 50+ alpha. They are the best "bang for your buck" right now. They outperform everything else. I see the top competitive guys using one build exclusively. And this lack of variety makes me sad.

If we can't have fixed convergence (see: Warthunder), than the "ghost heat" is the second best option. It does not nerf single weapons and does not prevent group firing (alpha strikes). I know it is against the laws of physics, but so are many other things in MWO (3xgravity for example)

The least painful solution right now is to put ERML and LPL in the same penalty group. This would not hurt Novas, and only affect the biggest offenders: TW/SRC/DW.

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 September 2014 - 01:10 AM.

[Roadbuster]

stoogah, on 14 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Less heat capacity and faster heat dissipation is the best solution imo (if balanced properly).

But this would only work for energy and missile weapons. Ballistics would stay the same and we would see even more dakka-dakka mechs than we do now.

I have to agree with some earlier posts that the root of the problem lies somewhere else.
For me it's the "blob-mentality" which seems to be common these days.
There clearly is a difference between how people played a few months ago and how they play now.

Usually fast scout mechs would check where the opponents are and where they are headed, provide targets and harass/distract.
Mediums and heavies would try to get to the flank while the rest of the team keeps the opponents busy.
Assaults would be the first to charge into enemy lines to "tank" for the rest of the team.

But the common strategy these days (at least in solo and small group queue) seems to be either "fast mechs rush forward and try to get into the opponents back while slower mechs get taken appart by the opponent" or "the whole team camps in one spot and waits to get taken appart".

The problem is that keeping alot of your firepower concentrated seems to be the most effective way to play.
Any mech bold enough to show itself to the opponents will get cored in a matter of seconds. Walking from one cover to the next can cost you half your armor and make you the target for 200 LRMs flying your way and hitting you even behind cover.
Also, there is nothing to win if 1-2 assaults charge into the enemy lines while the rest of the team stays in cover and expects the assaults to miraculously kill the whole opposing team.

So we end up with scouts who are affraid of peeking over a ridge, mediums and heavies with flock-mentality and assaults who don't want to take one for the team because nobody cares about them anyway.


Conquest and Assault at least offer different goals, and sometimes you'll really see teams fooling the opponents while they win by capping. But that's rare.
However. I can't think of an easy fix to gameplay, because people will always find a way to make mechanics work to their favor.

[Joseph Mallan]

Enlil09, on 14 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

I continue to be amazed by the amount of emotion on these forums expressed about weapon n*e*r*fs (pardon, trying not to get moderated into the dustbin).

Most seem to believe that it's because of community complaints. I don't think it is. If you listened to the community town hall on NGNG it was stated flatly that modifications to weapon and mech profiles, ghost heat, etc., are all being driven by an attempt to moderate the effectiveness of alpha strikes. Nothing to do with anything else. That's according to the Prez hisself.

Of course, that is driven by the basic computer game genre of the point and click first person shooter. There is a huge market for FPS games where your success as a player depends entirely upon your reaction time and eye-hand coordination. Nothing else matters. Not much anyway. The first person to recognize a target, get their cursor on it and click wins.

That reaction time is a born trait. You cannot improve it, no matter how hard you may try. Everyone is at where they're at. If you're slow, you will always be slow. If you're fast, etc.

The "death match", mode of fps games are never very popular because they are mercilessly dominated by the tiny percentage of players with the quickest reaction time. The only way to make money developing an fps is by creating a campaign mode that can be controlled by the developers to offer a good play experience to players with any reaction time. Look at Halo, Quake, etc. It was also stated in the town hall that PGI wants nothing to do with creating a single player campaign version of MWO.

This all translates to MWO via the alpha strike. If you can build a mech with enough power to alpha strike other mechs to death in one shot, and you are blessed with a fast point and click reaction time, then you can simply walk through MWO matches cleaning the other team off the field. That is what PGI is trying to prevent.

My suggestion is that they go about it in a different way. Use the solution from the old Xbox Mechwarrior series. Simply make it a quirk of all mechs that if you alpha strike you shut down for cooldown. No exceptions. No modifications. It would completely put an end to the cat and mouse guessing game between that PGI developers and players. Fast players want their alpha strike builds so they can dominate. PGI wants a profitable game, so they know they have to give players with all different reaction times a chance to win.

I think the solution is that simple. One, single quirk. Alpha strike shutdown.

And if your Alpha Strike does not Overtax your Sinks? I am sorry but I have been Alpha Striking for 30 years. And for the 3 years here as well. The fix for Alpha Strikes is to desync convergence if more than 1-2 weapons are fires at one time. Alpha Strike with 40 missiles kinda hurts. 40 damage from a Jager40 sucks. Convergence not Alpha.

[Haji1096]

Enlil09, on 14 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

I continue to be amazed by the amount of emotion on these forums expressed about weapon n*e*r*fs (pardon, trying not to get moderated into the dustbin).

Most seem to believe that it's because of community complaints. I don't think it is. If you listened to the community town hall on NGNG it was stated flatly that modifications to weapon and mech profiles, ghost heat, etc., are all being driven by an attempt to moderate the effectiveness of alpha strikes. Nothing to do with anything else. That's according to the Prez hisself.

Of course, that is driven by the basic computer game genre of the point and click first person shooter. There is a huge market for FPS games where your success as a player depends entirely upon your reaction time and eye-hand coordination. Nothing else matters. Not much anyway. The first person to recognize a target, get their cursor on it and click wins.

That reaction time is a born trait. You cannot improve it, no matter how hard you may try. Everyone is at where they're at. If you're slow, you will always be slow. If you're fast, etc.

The "death match", mode of fps games are never very popular because they are mercilessly dominated by the tiny percentage of players with the quickest reaction time. The only way to make money developing an fps is by creating a campaign mode that can be controlled by the developers to offer a good play experience to players with any reaction time. Look at Halo, Quake, etc. It was also stated in the town hall that PGI wants nothing to do with creating a single player campaign version of MWO.

This all translates to MWO via the alpha strike. If you can build a mech with enough power to alpha strike other mechs to death in one shot, and you are blessed with a fast point and click reaction time, then you can simply walk through MWO matches cleaning the other team off the field. That is what PGI is trying to prevent.

My suggestion is that they go about it in a different way. Use the solution from the old Xbox Mechwarrior series. Simply make it a quirk of all mechs that if you alpha strike you shut down for cooldown. No exceptions. No modifications. It would completely put an end to the cat and mouse guessing game between that PGI developers and players. Fast players want their alpha strike builds so they can dominate. PGI wants a profitable game, so they know they have to give players with all different reaction times a chance to win.

I think the solution is that simple. One, single quirk. Alpha strike shutdown.

Your heart is in the right place, but this idea is highly sub-optimal. If I am piloting a SDR-5V with two medium lasers and I alpha strike, I shut down immediately ? What if I have a Jenner 7F with 5 Medium lasers and one small laser, which I never fire to circumvent the rule ?

While your solution would elimnate the alpha strike problem, an unintended consequence is that it would hurt lights and mediums. The only way to play is to dump your weapons and get out of the way to minimize exposure to incoming fire.

The problem is not the ability to alpha strike. The problem is no reticle bloom/convergence. Your hypotheses regarding reaction time is flawed as well. Reaction time would only be a deciding factor if all other variables are the same. Both mechs are the same, firing the same weapon, have vision of each other at the same time.

The reality is that experience players know the maps better and have a better feel for when to "peek" and when not to, and how to position their weapons with out exposing all of their mech. Reaction time doesn't matter if you are hill humping into four mechs worth of fire.

[Lily from animove]

Carrie Harder, on 14 September 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Alpha striking is only a problem when all of the weapons from said alpha instantly converge onto a single pixel.

Alpha striking is a problem, when the srtike's damage is too high. alphas should never be able to exceed 50 damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

Alpha striking is a problem, when the srtike's damage is too high. alphas should never be able to exceed 50 damage.

nobody Complained when My Alpha was 95 damage. Most of which was Missiles and Medium lasers... In fact it was all Missiles and Mediums!

[KharnZor]

Enlil09, on 14 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

That reaction time is a born trait. You cannot improve it, no matter how hard you may try. Everyone is at where they're at. If you're slow, you will always be slow. If you're fast, etc.

This is blatantly false. please stop.