81 replies to this topic

[Viges]

Adiuvo, on 14 September 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

There's a point where a line needs to be drawn.

Respawns! All cs fans want that!

(I meant its hard to explain to some people that's not just fps game and they can only die once in a match).

[KraftySOT]

pcunite, on 14 September 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

The suspension of disbelief says that a computer could "converge" my weapons for me and that I can fire all my weapons at the same time. Don't turn this game into something from Mattel and "safe" for kids. Look for the root of the problem (hint: lack of true role warfare, where pawns protect queens).

How does the weapon physically converge on the fly? In your arms I get it, but these torso weapons are mounted in there. The mount doesnt move. How do you think it works on a fighter plane with guns in the wings? They set it before they even take off, by physically aligning the guns. Even in the arms, first your arms are in a neutral position, and then you target something, the computers time to calculate is unimportant its so short, but then something weighing multiple tons, has to move. Regardless of how great myomer (a fictional material in and of itself) is, its going to take x amount of time to actually get the arms correctly converged. Maybe a split second, maybe two...makes all the difference in a FPS. Thats the whole point of the OP.

The same thing id reverse at you and say, why cant the computer just fire for you. If it can do all this pin point on the fly convergence, why cant it aim for me so I never miss?

Were trying to recreate the board game, not make a realistic game about mechs. If you question some of this stuff you go no where fast.

Why is there a cockpit with glass when youre hooked into a computer? Why is there a joystick if you control the mech through a neural jack? Why put a person in one at all? Why not blast everything for orbit? Theres a huge number of fallacies already inherint in Battletech. Creating MORE is not doing us all any favors.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[DaZur]

The "alpha-Strike" is not the problem... It's the "selective" iteration MW:O allows via weapon groups.

Connically the "alpha-strike" was inferred to be a singular firing of all weapons (Usually resulting in a catastrophic shutdown etc..)... Not just the most logical composite.

Prior to the introduction of grouping weapons... Pin-point damage and discussions of "balance" were never use in the same sentence. As soon as grouping was introduced and players determined the most optimum composite of alpha weapons...

"Balance" went to hell in a hand-basket...

[KraftySOT]

There was a period of this game without weapon groupings?!

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

How does the weapon physically converge on the fly? In your arms I get it, but these torso weapons are mounted in there. The mount doesnt move. How do you think it works on a fighter plane with guns in the wings? They set it before they even take off, by physically aligning the guns. Even in the arms, first your arms are in a neutral position, and then you target something, the computers time to calculate is unimportant its so short, but then something weighing multiple tons, has to move. Regardless of how great myomer (a fictional material in and of itself) is, its going to take x amount of time to actually get the arms correctly converged. Maybe a split second, maybe two...makes all the difference in a FPS. Thats the whole point of the OP.

The same thing id reverse at you and say, why cant the computer just fire for you. If it can do all this pin point on the fly convergence, why cant it aim for me so I never miss?

Were trying to recreate the board game, not make a realistic game about mechs. If you question some of this stuff you go no where fast.

Why is there a cockpit with glass when youre hooked into a computer? Why is there a joystick if you control the mech through a neural jack? Why put a person in one at all? Why not blast everything for orbit? Theres a huge number of fallacies already inherint in Battletech. Creating MORE is not doing us all any favors.

See those weapon mounts, how they allow the gun lateral and vertical movement without being a full turret, that's how you have torso-mounted convergence.

[KraftySOT]

In the sense of fairness, though many of us TTers wont say this, the board game has its 'poptarting' as well.

Anyone whose ever been hit in the head first shot of the game to lose their life support, fall over into level 0 water and drown, knowns exactly what im talking about. Or you know, about half the weapons in the game behead your mech and kill your pilot. Thatll never happen in MWO. No one is ever going to hit you with a single clan ppc from a 30 tonner and take town your pristine dire wolf. An AC/10 urbie will never behead your 2/2 Atlas with a pilot crit.

I dont think its as much of an issue, but it would be nice to see convergence make some sort of sense and have a more battletech inspired experience.

Lefty Lucy, on 14 September 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

See those weapon mounts, how they allow the gun lateral and vertical movement without being a full turret, that's how you have torso-mounted convergence.

And there are mechs with those capabilities. Like the Marauder.

And there are those without. Like the Hollander. Or Hunchback. The idea of that AC/20 rotating in its mount is well...ridiculous. That mother is pretty fastened in there. It shoots straight out. Theres no traverse.

And to be fair theres some serious gaps in the old Char's traverse.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[DaZur]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

There was a period of this game without weapon groupings?!

"Grouping" was introduced in the latter portion of Closed-Beta...

[KraftySOT]

http://www.sarna.net...arauder.jpg.png

Clearly its weapons are traverseable. All of them.

http://www.sarna.net...K-Hunchback.png

Those CT lasers and AC20 will never converge.

Much like the Marauder will never pick something up or punch well. Nor would a Jagermech. Its missing two actuators to do punching. These things arent really of concern to us. And weapons convergence was never a concern to the TT. Theres bound to be difference, but they should try and aim for the same general balance.

Which does mean that IS on IS fights can degenerate into super close range brawls, which, I thought, seemed to be alot of peoples idea of a good time. Maps try and achieve it...people are always whining on about the snipers and alphas and poptarting..and every time they seem to keep nerfing and buffing and everyone is STILL unhappy and new things out of balance. Im just saying maybe lets try something thats never been yet tried in a mechwarrior game. Its got to be better than nerfing everything.

DaZur, on 14 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

"Grouping" was introduced in the latter portion of Closed-Beta...

Whhhy would you change that. Thats awesome.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...arauder.jpg.png

Clearly its weapons are traverseable. All of them.

http://www.sarna.net...K-Hunchback.png

Those CT lasers and AC20 will never converge.

Much like the Marauder will never pick something up or punch well. Nor would a Jagermech. Its missing two actuators to do punching. These things arent really of concern to us. And weapons convergence was never a concern to the TT. Theres bound to be difference, but they should try and aim for the same general balance.




Whhhy would you change that. Thats awesome.

All we can see is the port that the weapon fires out of. It could well be that the entire gun mechanism is on a gimbal mount and what we see is only the armor housing designed to protect the weapon mechanism.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 14 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

All we can see is the port that the weapon fires out of. It could well be that the entire gun mechanism is on a gimbal mount and what we see is only the armor housing designed to protect the weapon mechanism.

Considering theres only two free spaces in the quite cramped center torso, I find that very hard to believe. Otherwise, and god I loathe to bring up maxtech, but they wouldnt have made the distinction between these kinds of things.

Its an issue that doesnt come up in the board game, because of the way the game rules are. Were both speculating here, its simply not answered any where before some of the most recent additions to the TT.

But...from 3025s readout:

[color=#000000]Originally intended as a heavy attack/support 'Mech, the addition of sophisticated Dalban Micronics comgear enabled the Marauder to function as a command vehicle in areas of heavy fighting. It continues so today, with Marauders often appearing in command lances. [/color]
[color=#000000]Though its twin PPC arrangement is reminiscent of more traditional 'Mechs such as the Rifleman and the Warhammer, the Marauder's unique, more versatile ball-and-socket arm joints give it a faster traverse rate and a greater field of fire. [/color]
[color=#000000]The Valiant Lamellor armor is another of the Marauder's singular features. Less massive and better able to distribute heat and kinetic energy than other armor types, the secret of its manufacture has been lost. In the present era, the Marauder is one of the few 'Mechs to use it. As blasted patches have to be replaced with conventional armor, some Marauders now resemble metallic patchwork quilts. [/color]
[color=#000000]The Magna Hellstar PPCs that provide the Marauder's main armament are of an advanced design, compact enough to be carried in the 'Mech's arms and durable enough to withstand the heavy shocks of hand-to-hand combat. [/color]
[color=#000000]The Marauder's secondary armament, a GM Whirlwind autocannon, was added almost as an afterthought. The cannon's linkage to the chassis has been troublesome (see below), and the gun itself tends to be rather temperamental, often refusing to function at crucial moments. [/color]

Does seem to most emphatically insinuate, these are issues.

[KraftySOT]

And as said, mounted weapons, turrets on mechs, the marauders AC in the head specifically, and hand held weapons, dealt with this.

Some can converge id imagine. Others simply cannot. Its actually in the tech books in the lore, multiple times. The Marauder's is just the one I remembered of the top of my head.

But like I said, were speculating.

[CDLord HHGD]

What's your threshold for an alpha strike. If you fire all weapons, that's an alpha strike. Well, what's to stop people from equipping a small laser and not using it? That breaks the definition of the alpha strike.

I propose to do two thing instead:
Drop LRM damage back to TT figures and in line with everything else, equivalent of 1:1 damage. One missile hits, one point of damage.
Next, rework ghost heat to tie into damage output. Set a pre-determined limit. In this case, I am thinking 20 to account for the two "biggest" weapons in game, the AC20 and LRM20. Now, for every point of damage that goes above that in ANY volley, is an extra point of heat. A volley constitutes any damage sent down range within a .5 second (to account for UACs). Largest damage weapons count first. You fire two AC20's within that time frame, you will generate 26 points of heat. Two AC5's plus two PPCs? That's 30 points of heat. This is in addition to heat generated by jumping, moving, or ambient planetary temperatures.

[KraftySOT]

And I thinks its page 193 of StratOps that lists the quirks for mechs with those abilities. I know the Wolverine and Locust have that capability.

[Dark Jackal]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Really? Outside of 3025, heat is really a non issue unless you jump. Especially for inner sphere mechs...but most of the best mechs are balanced:

http://i1184.photobu...zpsd75af10c.png

Youll make 2 for running So what thats 4 rounds of alphas before you take a to hit penalty? Not really an issue.

The only mechs post 3050 that arent heat balanced, are because theyre inner sphere mechs with min ranges. So you wont in most situations fire both sets of weapons (Stalkers for instance)

Theres a FEW exceptions, the Grasshopper for example...but most are heat balanced. Double heat sinks changed all that worrying about heat stuff.

See, you're not looking at the Risk / Reward factor which I was talking about. Let's take your Timby Alt A:

Two ERPPCs alone are 30 heat which is what the default Timber Wolf Omni is set to as the heat baseline. But, since you want to alpha with everything on the A let's continue. Streak 6 is another 4, 3 MPL is another 12, and ER Small is 2. You add that up its 48. Looking at an up to date heat scale with +8 nets you -1 Movement and +1 to Fire making you're pilot instead of a 3/4 to a 4/4 pilot the next round and drops you're movement to from 5/8 to 4/6.

Not too bright to alpha with the A especially if you miss considering the wide variety of ranges that configuration has. Is this replicated into the current MWO? Hell no and that was my point. Just going a little bit over so many double heat sinks and you are already easier to hit and piloting worse which doesn't happen in MWO. This is the generosity I was talking about which you need to at least play Mega Mek then review how you are playing that game which on average I'm going to guess no one in their right mind is going to alpha every chance they get.

Further, if you alpha again the next round you have 16 heat built up. -3 movement just turned the Timby A into 2/3 'Mech. +2 to fire 5/4 pilot (pretty bad), and a shutdown roll which you can be unlucky.

I don't have to continue further because the Timby A is a sitting duck at 2/3 as on average more hits are going to hit that 'Mech the next round unless you're relying on extreme luck to have that Timby A survive 2 alphas, let alone 3 or 4.

I didn't even get into Engine hits. Losing a torso with Clan XL should net you +10 heat, +5 heat per engine crit. Doesn't happen in this game. (page 159 TW rule book)

Edited by Dark Jackal, 14 September 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Aresye]

KraftySOT, on 14 September 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

And as said, mounted weapons, turrets on mechs, the marauders AC in the head specifically, and hand held weapons, dealt with this.

Some can converge id imagine. Others simply cannot. Its actually in the tech books in the lore, multiple times. The Marauder's is just the one I remembered of the top of my head.

But like I said, were speculating.

If we're going to argue realism here, then technically only torso mounted weapons should suffer from convergence issues, which would just change the meta to pinpoint arm-mounted weapons, and wouldn't really change anything.

Adiuvo, on 14 September 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Before the big boogyman was pinpoint FLD damage. Now it seems like it's just 'high' damage that people are complaining about.

There's a point where a line needs to be drawn. Lasers are annoying for many reasons, but high damage isn't really one of them. If someone is able to hold a laser burn on you to deal that high damage they are playing well. It's a difficult thing against anyone good and you should be rewarded if you do it successfully.

TTK is something that's often harped on but I honestly think it's fine. Even for lights. If you can torso twist well and aren't caught out, mechs will survive for quite awhile. I don't want this game to ever turn into something where you can walk in front of 2 assaults and a heavy and come out perfectly fine. A lot of people seem to want positioning mistakes to be less punishing, but the importance of positioning is what really sets this game apart from others.

^This

[Josef Koba]

Forgive my naivete but I wasn't involved in closed beta at all. How were weapons fired back when there was no grouping?

[KraftySOT]

Aresye, on 14 September 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

If we're going to argue realism here, then technically only torso mounted weapons should suffer from convergence issues, which would just change the meta to pinpoint arm-mounted weapons, and wouldn't really change anything.



^This

Cept that arms are notoriously bad places for weapons? Couple this with not being able to fire your left arm that far into the right arc, and you have a much more dynamic game, giving more purpose and uniqueness to the mechs that have vastly different load outs.

And why wouldnt arms need to converge? It still takes time to do this. Even the turret mounted weapons in the torso. A 14 ton arm, is going to take at least a split second to move. Theres already arm lag built into the aiming system with the floating point. Adding in a little, I hate to say it, but first person shooter style closing circle to indicate your convergence adjusting, would go a super long way in improving the quality of game play.

Throw in some more innaccuracy at a full run (getting that floating point to move with your mech instead of being steady in the center of hte screen) and you have something very close to battletechs feel, and a game that allows many more types of mechs to compete.

[KraftySOT]

Dark Jackal, on 14 September 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

See, you're not looking at the Risk / Reward factor which I was talking about. Let's take your Timby Alt A:

Two ERPPCs alone are 30 heat which is what the default Timber Wolf Omni is set to as the heat baseline. But, since you want to alpha with everything on the A let's continue. Streak 6 is another 4, 3 MPL is another 12, and ER Small is 2. You add that up its 48. Looking at an up to date heat scale with +8 nets you -1 Movement and +1 to Fire making you're pilot instead of a 3/4 to a 4/4 pilot the next round and drops you're movement to from 5/8 to 4/6.

Not too bright to alpha with the A especially if you miss considering the wide variety of ranges that configuration has. Is this replicated into the current MWO? Hell no and that was my point. Just going a little bit over so many double heat sinks and you are already easier to hit and piloting worse which doesn't happen in MWO. This is the generosity I was talking about which you need to at least play Mega Mek then review how you are playing that game which on average I'm going to guess no one in their right mind is going to alpha every chance they get.

Further, if you alpha again the next round you have 16 heat built up. -3 movement just turned the Timby A into 2/3 'Mech. +2 to fire 5/4 pilot (pretty bad), and a shutdown roll which you can be unlucky.

I don't have to continue further because the Timby A is a sitting duck at 2/3 as on average more hits are going to hit that 'Mech the next round unless you're relying on extreme luck to have that Timby A survive 2 alphas, let alone 3 or 4.

I didn't even get into Engine hits. Losing a torso with Clan XL should net you +10 heat, +5 heat per engine crit. Doesn't happen in this game. (page 159 TW rule book)

If you look at the sheet, its 40 heat dissipation.

Thats actually only getting you a movement malus, which doesnt matter unless youre a light that lives and dies by its total hexes moved modifier.

And I play Megameknet pretty much daily, in the 3025 campaign, and used to play the 3052 campaign, but I get enough of the Ultra ACs and whatnot here.

Alpha strikes are par for the course. The whole meta revolves around getting enough faction points to use the mech roll to get the mechs that are heat balanced (of which there are many) and then face ****** everyone. That or artillery.

And thats 3025...where theres vastly less heat balanced mechs.

But youve still got the Charger, most lights, and a nice selection of mediums. The few that do make heat are relatively rare, or mechs like the Crusader, that are going to have min range problems, so you cant in all honesty, fire the two lrm 15s, AND the Srms. The window for doing so is just a few hexes which anyone will deny you.

Of course in 3025 it doesnt matter really, because it all degenerates into a kick fest any ways.

edit:

Ah you noted the correct math though.

But I beg to differ that the movement malus makes any sort of difference. The to hit is the only thing that matters, and the streak wont fire unless it hits, so im not counting its heat.

Edited by KraftySOT, 14 September 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Also I disagree that any mechs in battletech, are dropping from one or two alpha strikes. Mechs are much hardier because of the way damage works. Sure you might get unlucky, but chances are, if youre over 50 tons, you can take multiple PPC hits and keep on trucking. 20% of the hits go the legs. Not even close in MWO.

Not to mention no calling of shots reliably with stock pilots or even veteran pilots, so even if theres a wide open CT, the chances of you hitting it, and actually hitting a gyro, knocking it over so you can kick it to death, is slim.

That Timber A can take a multiturn pounding from any mech, short of maybe a King Crab that decided to park 3-5 hexes away and you just decided to do nothing about it.

[Nightmare1]

Alpha Striking is a part of the game. The right to Alpha shall not be infringed!

Besides, shutting down for an Alpha is about as dumb as snake mittens. It's just not canonical.

Add to that the fact that the devs have tweaked ghost heat for weapons fire in general, rather than just Alphas, and you argument falls apart. Some weapons, like ACs, have their ghost heat scale rigged for consecutive shots to prevent devastating sustained fire, rather than a high, pin-point Alpha.

The last thing we need right now is more nerfs. Let's leave the Alpha Strikes alone for now, okay?