446 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

1453 R, on 14 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Listen to Mischief. Mischief speaks truth.

Voting against the player council/ECM task force is voting against having a voice in the affairs of MWO. if you want to continue along the rocky, ineffectual road we've all traveled for so long where nothing gets done and players have no choice or voice about what happens in this game, then keep on trying to undermine a player council or issue-specific task force.

We've all seen where that road leads. I, for one, am ready to try a different road and see where that goes, because it really can't not be better than where we are now. Anywhere we helped choose to go is better than a place we had no hand or voice in.

1453 R, on 14 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Listen to Mischief. Mischief speaks truth.

Voting against the player council/ECM task force is voting against having a voice in the affairs of MWO. if you want to continue along the rocky, ineffectual road we've all traveled for so long where nothing gets done and players have no choice or voice about what happens in this game, then keep on trying to undermine a player council or issue-specific task force.

We've all seen where that road leads. I, for one, am ready to try a different road and see where that goes, because it really can't not be better than where we are now. Anywhere we helped choose to go is better than a place we had no hand or voice in.

I dont listen to him”, i have him blocked. And glad that i have done so. His statement in part deux was enough to do it.

1453 R, on 14 September 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

What you're basically telling us to do, CN9, is to stop offering feedback or advise or ideas altogether. You're telling us all to trust Piranha as blindly as a young child trusts its parents, simply because we don't have as much information available as they do.

They certainly do have more information than we do, and if some of that information invalidates our ideas, they can tell us that and we'll be fine with it (the usual forum ragemonkeys excepted. They don't count anyways, and never have). What we do have is the information of our own play experiences, opinions formed on the basis of that information, and desires which arise from those opinions.

Piranha is not my mommy, making decisions for me for my own good because Piranha's a responsible adult and I'm a snot-nosed brat with no practical knowledge of the world. They're a business that wants my money, and in order to get my money in a more effective and mutually-satisfactory manner, they have a vested interest in ensuring that my experience of the game is as tip-top as it's within their resources to make it. Part of that experience of the game is knowing that this company has my back, that I am a player to them and not just a wallet with fingers that can be milked whenever the bank accounts start looking thin. The best way to make players feel like valued customers and fellow partners in a business endeavor - one of the best ways to convince them to open their wallets and shell out - is to give them a voice in what goes on with the game.

Don't make a council. Instead name them as advisors. Run a test on the test server. Then make the community vote for with a poll till you get a final concept.

A council is nonsense.

[Targetloc]

Sarlic, on 14 September 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

I dont listen to him”, i have him blocked. And glad that i have done so. His statement in part deux was enough to do it.



Don't make a council. Instead name them as advisors. Run a test on the test server. Then make the community vote for with a poll till you get a final concept.

A council is nonsense.

No, advisors are nonsense! Instead, make them vicars!


Wait... what is this inconceivably stupid conversation we're having?

[1453 R]

Khobai, on 14 September 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Not really. I had a poll/discussion going in the feature suggestions section of the forums that got locked, but was making strides in resolving the ECM issue.

The most derided aspect of ECM is the blanket stealth it grants and the fact its a hard counter to LRMs rather than a soft counter.

Conversely, the most derided aspect of indirect LRMs is how accurate they are, how fast they fire, and how much screenshake they cause. There's also concern that NARC might be a little too strong or should at least have a HUD indicator that you've been NARC'd.

We really dont need a council to find out what the community's thoughts are on ECM. A simple poll figured that out.

Sure, though I would dare say that you'd find it surprising what percentage of folks' opinions would drift from that established baseline. I'm imaging the percentage of folks that would so much as simply agree that your description of the problem is accurate is noticeably less than 80%, but for the purposes of discussion we can assume that it's an accurate enough summation to work with.

Now, get the forums to an 80% consensus rate on what to do about that.

The point of a PTF is as much to catalyze discussion and pare away the obvious chaff as it is to determine what's wrong. The forums are and always have been a great way to figure out what's wrong, but figuring out how to fix it? That's the thing we pretty much universally stink at, because of the Four Hundred and Eighty Pornos effect. There's too much noise, too much clutter, too much badly written garbage and out-and-out shitposting in any given discussion thread. Even if you have time to wade through it all, it saps the spirit, numbs the nerves, and makes it really difficult to care about what happens to the jabbering nitwits making your life miserable.

This sort of demi-semi-official channel can talk to PGI with real, actual words, instead of the thundering din of four hundred and eighty pornos. Piranha gets the information they need in a timely and effective manner, which helps maximize their ability to act upon it. And if they can't or won't act upon it? Then we're in no worse shape than we are right now.

Sarlic, on 14 September 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

Don't make a council. Instead name them as advisors. Run a test on the test server. Then make the community vote for with a poll till you get a final concept.

A council is nonsense.

Call them Santa's Helpers if it makes you feel better, I give absolutely zero cares. I don't, and haven't been, using the term 'council' for quite some time, as I happen to agree. The terminology is misleading and fighting the specter of what that errant terminology suggests is three quarters of the reasons why threads like this one exist. Player advisors works, a player-organized task force works too. You could call them Fish Bait if you want, and so long as they do the job they're supposed to I'll cheer on my Fish Bait all the way and do whatever I can to help them help me help Piranha.

Edited by 1453 R, 14 September 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[Sarlic]

Targetloc, on 14 September 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

No, advisors are nonsense! Instead, make them vicars!


Wait... what is this inconceivably stupid conversation we're having?

Because the word: council is just plain stupid, agree?

Edited by Sarlic, 14 September 2014 - 10:03 PM.

[SoggyGorilla]

I'm just surprised there are people that think community involvement in game development is a bad thing.

[Mothykins]

1453 R, on 14 September 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Call them Santa's Helpers if it makes you feel better, I give absolutely zero cares. I don't, and haven't been, using the term 'council' for quite some time, as I happen to agree. The terminology is misleading and fighting the specter of what that errant terminology suggests is three quarters of the reasons why threads like this one exist. Player advisors works, a player-organized task force works too. You could call them Fish Bait if you want, and so long as they do the job they're supposed to I'll cheer on my Fish Bait all the way and do whatever I can to help them help me help Piranha.

Petition to actually call them Task Force Fish Bait, Coming Soon.

Edited by Cavale, 14 September 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

It makes so much since to put the game in the hands of the vocal minority. Fueled by a high school popularity contest where the person running for class president gets the ballots stuffed for them by their friends. And everyone else gets ridiculed into silence.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 14 September 2014 - 10:46 PM.

[FDJustin]

As far as I understand it, the idea of a player council is... Player made. One of the community members said, hey, they want a general concensus? Then we're going to need some organization. Maybe we should get a few people together to filter all the noise, figure out what most people want, then we can actually make a proposal.

That's it. It's not some god given powers. We don't have a new Emperor Pharaoh King Godson the Divine that's going to push agendas, because they're, at best, a community formed figurehead and have no real power.

[Khobai]

Yes its player made. But the concern is the disproportionate representation of the players. Some players are talking about having a council of 5-7 people with 2-3 elite competitive players on it. Well elite competitive players make up like 1% of the player population. But theyre being given 30%-40% representation? How does that in any way make sense?

[Delas Ting Usee]

Khobai, on 14 September 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Yes its player made. But the concern is the disproportionate representation of the players. Some players are talking about having a council of 5-7 people with 2-3 elite competitive players on it. Well elite competitive players make up like 1% of the player population. But theyre being given 30%-40% representation? How does that in any way make sense?

Dude, has a point.

[Delas Ting Usee]

Also why are no Europeans or Asians on the player council?
Is this an exclusive all 'North American' club with no diversity whatsoever?
And finally, WHY ARE WE RUSHING THIS PROCESS without enough time for due process or deligence because RUSS gave us a deadline? IS that right?
One could construe/precieved as a 'wanting us to fail' senario.

I'm late to this but how are the council members elected? By popular vote?

[Pjwned]

I'm not a fan of a players council, there are other ways to reach consensus without potentially bringing in a lot of bias from anybody that may be chosen.

SoggyGorilla, on 14 September 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

I'm just surprised there are people that think community involvement in game development is a bad thing.

Ideally it's not even necessary because the company just has everything figured out perfectly themselves, but of course that's a very hard to achieve ideal.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 September 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[FDJustin]

Khobai, on 14 September 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Yes its player made. But the concern is the disproportionate representation of the players. Some players are talking about having a council of 5-7 people with 2-3 elite competitive players on it. Well elite competitive players make up like 1% of the player population. But theyre being given 30%-40% representation? How does that in any way make sense?

Voting system, easy enough. The small % of competitive players may try to get something changed, but if the majority of players don't like it, all it takes is a quick poll to discern that.

[N0MAD]

Notice here how people are saying get the community involved, what community? the Forum community with their own agenda?.
You cant be saying the MWO community cause as the BIG percentage of these people dont even know what goes on in these forums cause they DONT come here.
So effectively what they are saying is let the Forumites decide whats to be presented ALTHO they are a tiny Percentage of the MWO community, sounds legit..

FDJustin, on 14 September 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

Voting system, easy enough. The small % of competitive players may try to get something changed, but if the majority of players don't like it, all it takes is a quick poll to discern that.

How can you say if the majority of players dont like it all it takes is a poll? the majority doesnt visit the forums and dont vote.
You obviously mean the small percentage of forum goers will vote right?.

Edited by N0MAD, 15 September 2014 - 03:11 AM.

[Garandos]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

How can you say if the majority of players dont like it all it takes is a poll? the majority doesnt visit the forums and dont vote.
You obviously mean the small percentage of forum goers will vote right?.

You can only work with those who ARE willing to work.

[Lily from animove]

Bront, on 14 September 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Why would a players council want to create something that's unabanced, knowing full well anything that becomes unbalanced works on either team?

Why would players who love this game enough to try to work for the community to help the devs balance the game actively seek to harm it? (and balance issues do harm the game tremendously).

Now true, elections will be to some extent a popularity contest, but it's hard to argue real elections are much different. Why not give it a try and see how it works?

Why did players said XZY is ok, while it was not ok? because they palyed the game like that and wanted to stick with what they were used to.
So how do we indeed make sure, the player council is judging things objectively and not to their favour?

So when me and my 1000 poptart PPC friends vote for me, I can heavily impalance the game when some other 1000 of these friends would vote my other poptart PPC council buddy. This system does indeed bear risks as well and just because its a change does not mean its better.

[IsaAurinkoinen]

SoggyGorilla, on 14 September 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

I'm just surprised there are people that think community involvement in game development is a bad thing.

Don't you read what people are writing on these forums. Many bad ideas.

I think that listening vocal unhappu minority who are mainly contriputors on this forum would be worst thing to do. Those who are happy state of the game aren't here complaining, they are playing the game.

[N0MAD]

Garandos, on 15 September 2014 - 03:13 AM, said:

You can only work with those who ARE willing to work.

Ok so lets take an example of discussion at work, the thread about ECM dialog part 1,, 123 post as of this post, with what couple dozen or what 30-40 (is it that many?) people in that thread, Lets go all out and say a whole 50 unique posters, what percentage of the total suposed 10s of thousands of MWO players is that? yep that is a huge part of the population contributing right? going to get great imput from the community as a whole right?

[Joseph Mallan]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 14 September 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Seriously, I had very huge doubts that MWO in Players Council hands not gonna turn into unbalanced rubbish. Also there is serious doubts that Players Council not gonna change into a POP-star X-Factor alike contest where the elected councilors will turn the game balance issues for personal goods and a bunch of a Forum-FanGils will not make lobby which will affect fraction in the game.

They are so untrusted that better PGI'll screw some bits of game play than some little procent of a players get undeserved advantage.

VOTE AGAINST PLAYERS COUNCIL... STAY SAFE!

So Vote against Players having a say in the game development? Where I work Its called Employee involvement. And it is a pretty useful took for getting things done. But hey if you want to stay on the outside and never have a hand in making improvements, by all means, Sit down and shut up, like we have been forced to do for decades of game development.

[El Bandito]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

Ok so lets take an example of discussion at work, the thread about ECM dialog part 1,, 123 post as of this post, with what couple dozen or what 30-40 (is it that many?) people in that thread, Lets go all out and say a whole 50 unique posters, what percentage of the total suposed 10s of thousands of MWO players is that? yep that is a huge part of the population contributing right? going to get great imput from the community as a whole right?

Most of the players who genuinely care about the BT franchise and want this game to succeed are the long time forumers, and especially the Founders. It is only right that they should represent the population.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2014 - 03:32 AM.