446 replies to this topic

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 September 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

OK I am old AND a parent. But I would not have pulled out that moronic Parenting Gem!

The Boss asked for our help, and in a grand show of Spite, you want to give him the big double middles! Mature indeed.

Is he is your direct Boss? Did he pay your vages?
Confess do you work for commies KGB?

That was so bold and immature... Josh. Start to think with brain. Please.

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 15 September 2014 - 08:52 AM.

[stjobe]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

EXPLAIN, WHY THAN WE SOULD HAVE THE COUNCIL?

I already did. You even quoted part of the explanation.

But a second time then, just for you:

Because PGI asked us to.

The council is just a way to get a few members of the community to do the hard work of gathering and lining up proposals from the rest of the community, and put them to a vote.

PGI could do this, but for some reason Russ wants us to do it ourselves. Some think it's to teach us a lesson, others that it's a sign of a new openness now that IGP is out of the picture. Regardless, it's a good chance to affect how the game we all play works - if we can somehow get to a single proposal despite those that seem to do their utmost to misconstrue the proposal from Russ and/or sabotage even the forming of a council.

Do you get it now?

[Joseph Mallan]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Is he is your direct Boss? Did he pay your vages?
Confess do you work for commies KGB?

That was so bold and immature... Josh. Start to think. Please.

Worse I work for a Auto company!

He is the boss of the game. Use something other than straight line logic sir. The guy who can pull the plug on MW:O just asked for our help and Input. And like a spoiled child some of us want to stamp our feet saying it's not fair! 48 Years old, raising 2 children, and a former rebellious Infantry Marine 21 years in the UAW working for a Big 3 Car company... and I just haven't seen this level of blind stupid... ever!

stjobe, on 15 September 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I already did. You even quoted part of the explanation.

But a second time then, just for you:

Because PGI asked us to.

The council is just a way to get a few members of the community to do the hard work of gathering and lining up proposals from the rest of the community, and put them to a vote.

PGI could do this, but for some reason Russ wants us to do it ourselves. Some think it's to teach us a lesson, others that it's a sign of a new openness now that IGP is out of the picture. Regardless, it's a good chance to affect how the game we all play works - if we can somehow get to a single proposal despite those that seem to do their utmost to misconstrue the proposal from Russ and/or sabotage even the forming of a council.

Do you get it now?

You left out that it could be Both!

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

stjobe, on 15 September 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I already did. You even quoted part of the explanation.

But a second time then, just for you:

Because PGI asked us to.

The council is just a way to get a few members of the community to do the hard work of gathering and lining up proposals from the rest of the community, and put them to a vote.

PGI could do this, but for some reason Russ wants us to do it ourselves. Some think it's to teach us a lesson, others that it's a sign of a new openness now that IGP is out of the picture. Regardless, it's a good chance to affect how the game we all play works - if we can somehow get to a single proposal despite those that seem to do their utmost to misconstrue the proposal from Russ and/or sabotage even the forming of a council.

Do you get it now?

Sabotage is a cliche. So you think that 50% of players sabotage?
I actually think that a people who voting "for council" want to sabotage the game. Like I said before if PGI can do it their self we don't need a council of any kind.

The Council elections is more X-Factor alike show in forum format.

Joseph Mallan, on 15 September 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Worse I work for a Auto company!

He is the boss of the game. Use something other than straight line logic sir. The guy who can pull the plug on MW:O just asked for our help and Input. And like a spoiled child some of us want to stamp our feet saying it's not fair! 48 Years old, raising 2 children, and a former rebellious Infantry Marine 21 years in the UAW working for a Big 3 Car company... and I just haven't seen this level of blind stupid... ever!

Cool story Josh, but what all this have to do with a Council elections? Any sence... please! Beggin'ya

[UnsafePilot]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Like I said before if PGI can do it their self we don't need a council of any kind.

They wouldn't have asked us to form a council if they were willing to comb the forums themselves. Just saying that they should over and over again isn't a good reason to skip doing what was asked.

[Mcgral18]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

EXPLAIN, WHY THAN WE SOULD HAVE THE COUNCIL?

To sort through posts like this one, and the quoted one, that clutter the good and thought out ideas in the forums.

[stjobe]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Like I said before if PGI can do it their self we don't need a council of any kind.

No, we don't need it. But Russ Bullock, the President of PGI, asked us to form one. Please read this quote from him:

Russ Bullock, on 12 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Okay how about this, this is what many of you have been waiting for:

Well first a question: Do you think you the community can come to an agreed upon consensus? One in which if the changes are implemented everyone says great job PGI on listening to us now we feel great about ECM and your ability to listen to feedback?

If the answer is Yes then I suggest the following:

You the community decide how your going to present a proposal, nominate a peer that you feel has the best handle on this, put together your own player council whatever you like but present a proposal that your peers vote on. The vote would likely need to be far greater than just 51% in favor. Perhaps something more like 80+%

At that point PGI will analyze the proposal, if we see any technical problems or balance problems that we feel perhaps you didnt see, we will point those items out to you. Then if necessary you can adjust your proposal and put it to a vote again, if successful PGI will again analyze and repeat if necessary until we have a final design solution for implementation.

PGI will then communicate how long it will take to implement with full explanation as to why, and we will patch the changes in upon the agreed upon delivery date. Once complete if this whole process has gone smoothly and civily we will proceed with doing things like this far more frequently or at least for other areas of the product that are controversial.

What do you say?

This council thing isn't something someone in the community came up with as a way to lord it over others; we're trying to form one on the direct request of the president of the company making MWO.

The sole purpose of the council is to finalize one proposal on how to change ECM that the majority of the players can get behind - it's not about the council rail-roading something in, it's just about trying to get a single proposal distilled from the multitude of threads and opinions on the matter.

[EgoSlayer]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

So, if Council makes a solution which affects badly at least 30-50% players and they'll not be resposible... WHAT FOR WE NEED COUNCIL IF WE GOT SO IRRESPONSIBLE PGI!? Sence, where are you?

Um simple really - because players want to have input on changes rather than just having PGI make changes without player input. Or are you saying you like every change PGI has ever made? Because that makes no sense.

[TLBFestus]

stjobe, on 15 September 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

When there's only one proposal left, that gets presented to PGI and hopefully it's good enough to be implemented in game.

With that in mind I hope whomever participates in this has access to a Developer who can actually inform them of what can and can't be done. Many of the communities "solutions" simply would not work due to the engine chosen, conflicts with other modules, etc., that we don't know exist.

It's these things that need to be explained when an idea is floated and is rejected. "Great soudning idea folks, but unfortunately if we do this the game explodes" sorta thing.

I'm still not a big fan of the Council idea, and I do like the "focus group" approach. There are a few people in the forums that are almost universally respected and would be a very good sounding board for the Devs to make use of.

I would prefer a focus group that PGI chooses from a LARGE list of people submitted by the forum members. No one would know who they are but the Devs, to save them grief, and if the Devs are serious about getting good feedback they wouldn't just chose the "easy" choices in who they consult with.

Polls and Votes can still be used, only PGI has a group that can warn them about bad ideas and poorly chosen words before they put it all out there.

[stjobe]

TLBFestus, on 15 September 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

With that in mind I hope whomever participates in this has access to a Developer who can actually inform them of what can and can't be done. Many of the communities "solutions" simply would not work due to the engine chosen, conflicts with other modules, etc., that we don't know exist.

See the quote from Russ above, here's the relevant excerpt:

Russ Bullock, on 12 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

At that point PGI will analyze the proposal, if we see any technical problems or balance problems that we feel perhaps you didnt see, we will point those items out to you. Then if necessary you can adjust your proposal and put it to a vote again, if successful PGI will again analyze and repeat if necessary until we have a final design solution for implementation.

So yes, PGI is prepared to play ball and help us out.

[Bront]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

So, if Council makes a solution which affects badly at least 30-50% players and they'll not be resposible... WHAT FOR WE NEED COUNCIL IF WE GOT SO IRRESPONSIBLE PGI!? Sence, where are you?

1) Define "Badly". In theory, any gear nerf effects players negitively, but the idea is to make the experience positive for most people, and sometimes that means nerfing something (And sometimes it means buffing something).

2) The community still needs to vote on it, the Council is mostly there to help put together a somewhat unified proposal, because it's nearly impossible if you have thousands of people weighing in on it.

3) Someone is not going to like the change. Someone is going to demand a refund or quit over it or rage over it. It happens. The idea is to get something that the community can get behind in general that makes the game experience better for more players.

Look, I was in a PUG match today, and a teammate of mine said in comms "We need to push, we don't have any ECM mechs, so we can't play defense". Now, we won the match because we managed a fairly adept push (for a PUG group), but the fact that because our group had no ECM, we couldn't attempt to defend our base. ECM is game changing enough that entirely valid stratergies are invalidated simply by it's presence (or lack there of). Most players know it, and simply live with it, because that's the way it is. Let's see how the council does before we decide that it's not going to work. At worst, the changes get rolled back and we learn it's not a good idea.

[CygnusX7]

You guys can't agree on anything.

[Joseph Mallan]

CygnusX7, on 15 September 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

You guys can't agree on anything.

Yes we can!

Wait

Ummmm -------------------------> Flotatious Jellyfish!

[Joseph Mallan]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 15 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Sabotage is a cliche. So you think that 50% of players sabotage?
I actually think that a people who voting "for council" want to sabotage the game. Like I said before if PGI can do it their self we don't need a council of any kind.

The Council elections is more X-Factor alike show in forum format.


Cool story Josh, but what all this have to do with a Council elections? Any sence... please! Beggin'ya

Simple we works elected each and every committeeman, representative, and EI committee, You know you could actually maybe read the posts instead of just deny their merit. ;)You are just being stubborn and foolish.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 September 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Bront]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

Why did players said XZY is ok, while it was not ok? because they palyed the game like that and wanted to stick with what they were used to.
So how do we indeed make sure, the player council is judging things objectively and not to their favour?

So when me and my 1000 poptart PPC friends vote for me, I can heavily impalance the game when some other 1000 of these friends would vote my other poptart PPC council buddy. This system does indeed bear risks as well and just because its a change does not mean its better.

1) Given we're talking about electing the officials, you can review their stances on several different issues. Folks who are "pro poptart" to use your example could be weeded out if the community sees fit.

2) This particular council is for ECM only (and possibly any other equipment that interacts with ECM). They are not being given unilateral power to change every aspect of MWO.

3) PGI still needs to approve anything proposed. though they said they would if it was not game or code breaking.

4) PGI still wants a community consensus on the results, so the community as a whole still gets some level of veto power.

It's not like a council is suddently going to make the meta (SPL meta please).

[-Natural Selection-]

It all seems very high school "class president" like to me. A title or role that really means nothing other than a feel good for the people. There is little to no information this group could attain that PGI could not themselves using the same means.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mickey Knoxx, on 15 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

It all seems very high school "class president" like to me. A title or role that really means nothing other than a feel good for the people. There is little to no information this group could attain that PGI could not themselves using the same means.

Yes but they can poke them with a stick until they respond!

[UnsafePilot]

Mickey Knoxx, on 15 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

There is little to no information this group could attain that PGI could not themselves using the same means.

They've been sifting through the information themselves and the community consensus seems to be that it hasn't been working out in our best interest. This is an attempt to do it a different way to see if we can get different results. Simply saying that they should do it themselves over and over again isn't going to get us anywhere we haven't already gone.

[SoggyGorilla]

Horusv2, on 15 September 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

Elitist forum neckbeards trying to get their ideas into some videogame under the agenda of "doing good for the masses"
What a load of crap. The masses dont care. And you people dont represent anybody other than yourself.
You are not shareholders.
For the record: I will vote against anything you people will come up with. This is not a democratic state but a game developed by a company. And when this company is slow or bad at making games they need to get out of business and not this pseudo community crap.
If you have good ideas build your own company or build a mod or whatever.

Seriously this is a perfect example of people that are part of the problem here.

[Mark Brandhauber]

A council is a good idea but it will not be truly representative if it is only made up of north americans.